RO Help

[vernon]

I found a old RO that I would like to make work for 1200 taps on high vac. I know very little on RO'S but I am reading the past posts and learning all the time. The pump is a Goulds 1HP booster pump 5GBC10. It has 5 membranes Filmitec model TW30-4040 but one of the casings is broke. The filters are new and the pump looks quite new also. Any info on if it will work and how would be very welcome. Thanks Vernon

[madmapler]

If the pump you're speaking of is the pressure pump then it does'nt seem like its sized proportionately to the 5-4" membranes. There should be at least one other pump on it. I don't know anything about that type membrane. It does'nt sound like a maple membrane but I'm not sure about that. Four membranes of that size would be sufficient for that many taps. I had the same amount of taps last year with a 3 post machine(xle 4040 membranes) and I kept up alright using a 2.5x10 evaporator. Is it a home built unit? More info and a brand name would help.

[vernon]

Thanks madmapler. Their is another pump that with the unit. I don't know if this set-up will work or not? I have time to get it all figured out before maple season. The unit came from a water supplier that bottled water to sell in stores that had financial problems and closed down 8 months ago. I put pictures on the other site but can't figure out how to put them on this one yet? I don't think it is home made but don't see a make on it yet. All the parts I looked up on line seem like good quality stuff, motors, flow valve, membranes, valves and the plumping looks professional. It would be a shame to just throw it all away so I am going to try and make something to fit my needs. Their is so many parts that it will take time to figure it all out? .....Thanks again Vernon

[madmapler]

Sounds like you've got something to work with. They seem pretty complicated at first but once you spend the time researching them you'll find they're not that hard to grasp. A good Schematic to study is Teuchtars plans. Just do a search on his name.

[vernon]

One more question. I see the maple RO's are using XLE-4040 filters and the ones that are in the RO I have are TW30-4040. What is the difference and will the one's I have work for sap? Thanks Vernon

[madmapler]

Those dont sound familiar to me. Theres other guys who know more about the older membrane nomenclature but I think those are not made for maple. The xle 4040s are an excellent membrane for maple and probably a good choice for your RO because they work well with lower pressures. I still dont know what you have for pumps but the one you posted about does'nt add up as suffucient to produce very high pressures with 4 or 5 membranes. I would make sure of what exactly you have for a machine before you invest in membranes but if and when you do purchase them, get ahold of Joe at Atlantic RO (atlanticro.com). He has the best prices on RO parts and xle membranes by far. Real good guy.

[BreezyHill]

TW-30 is for water purification. High salt rejection.
2400 gpd rate.

It is interesting getting an old unit up and running.

A good investment will be a sap hydrometer and valves to pull off of the concentrate and the permeate lines to check the contents for sugar.

I have an old unit that I installed two xles into and will be adding two more as it was designed to run at 500 psi and the xle is designed for 300 max. Had a sugar passing issue the first day and learned it was not enough volume thru the concentrate side that was causing the sugar passage. Two more membranes parallel to the current two in series will allow me to split the flow and get more from the unit.

The older high pressure pump system works great but I had to run with the concentrate valve nearly wide open and the pressure valve at half. To stay within the specs of the xles.

You will be just fine just don't limit the membranes and force sugar thru. There has to be enough flow to carry away the sugar or passage will result.

The great thing is you can flush the membrane easily by turning up the pressure and increasing the flow rate. Takes only a couple of minutes and your membranes are back to high flow again.

Good Luck

Ben

[wiam]

TW-30 is for water purification. High salt rejection.
2400 gpd rate.

It is interesting getting an old unit up and running.

A good investment will be a sap hydrometer and valves to pull off of the concentrate and the permeate lines to check the contents for sugar.

I have an old unit that I installed two xles into and will be adding two more as it was designed to run at 500 psi and the xle is designed for 300 max. Had a sugar passing issue the first day and learned it was not enough volume thru the concentrate side that was causing the sugar passage. Two more membranes parallel to the current two in series will allow me to split the flow and get more from the unit.

The older high pressure pump system works great but I had to run with the concentrate valve nearly wide open and the pressure valve at half. To stay within the specs of the xles.

You will be just fine just don't limit the membranes and force sugar thru. There has to be enough flow to carry away the sugar or passage will result.

The great thing is you can flush the membrane easily by turning up the pressure and increasing the flow rate. Takes only a couple of minutes and your membranes are back to high flow again.

Good Luck

Ben

Dow list maximum pressure for a xle at 600 psi. I run mine at close to 500 in an old Memtek with no sugar passage.
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_082e/0901b8038082e949.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00364.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

[madmapler]

I just bought a 1000 gph memtek with 2 xles that came from leader. The guy I bought it from said leader recommended running them up to 500 psi but not beyond. That does'nt mean they won't do it though.

[BreezyHill]

The DOW engineer that I talked with explained that there it is more efficient to run at higher volume and lower pressure to get the most consistant product and longest life from the membranes. The old technolodge vs the new in membrane has changed and the xle is designed to provide good rates at lower pressures andadd to membrane longevity.

I got to talk to this guy because I was having an issue passing sugar and he explained that running at higher pressures there were several issues that would arise.

I did a couple of the tests he gave me to test the efficiency of the unit and he was right. Less energy used at lower psi and more product thru the system for the cost. I found that running at 250 gave me the most return on investment and the unit ran cooler.

While doing the recommended tests I got upto 475 without sugar passage but the energy usage in amps nearly doubled without doubling the output.

Point of diminishing returns was his key factor. When you are putting in more energy and not getting the same return percentage wise you have passed the point of efficiency; and the ware and tear on the unit brings that point lower yet than just the energy factor.

Take your car...if the fuel mileage was the same at 80 as at 60 why not drive 80 all the time...then factor in the added cost of the inevitable ticket, the safety of you, passengers, and by standers and it is a better return to drive 60. Now factor in the reduction of the fuel economy at 60 and it really pays to drive 60; but the car can do 120.

But on the other hand if it is 11 pm and the sap is flowing good...you better believe I am going to to have that unit cranking to keep me from having to stay up til 2 am so that tanks will not over flow in the morning and I can get some extra shut eye time. Sleep time is very valuble to me. When I am tired things seem to go wrong a lot quicker. Funny how 4 hrs of sleep doesn't cut it any more????

Ben

[Romeo]

The RO is new too me and I have some questions when you are flushing the membrane do you the reverse the flow in the membrane or are you just flooding it in the same direction as normal flow Thank you Marty :)

[mellondome]

Never put pressure on the permeate side. Flushing is pushing water across the membrane as fast as possible with as little pressure as possible. This will have a cleaning effect like hosing off a filter.

[vernon]

OK are you saying the TW30-4040 won't remove water from sap or is not as efficient as the XLE-4040 membranes.A shame to not use what I have as their new. Thanks Vernon

[wiam]

I would try the membranes you already own, but I am cheap.

[vernon]

Thanks..I am cheap also..lol

[vernon]

Would 2 membranes be enough for my operating? The more I read on RO's I think my setup is over kill? Any comment's? Thanks Vernon

[wiam]

I run 4 xle's with 1000 taps. I run them at about 450psi. I like to boil 14-16%. Most days I wish I had more membrane. Your pump will not do that much pressure.

[vernon]

Will my pump run 2 membranes or maybe 1? I have not tried anything yet. When I picked it up (RO) everything was in a heap in the floor. All wires were cut with pliers and all pipes were cut with a hack saw. It is going to be a game to figure things out? Some parts are 120v and some is 240? I will get it little by little with a lot of help on here. Thanks Vernon

[vernon]

I am not sure how to plumb this RO? What is the best way to run these membranes parallel or In series? How are they plumbed? Some kind of diagram or picture would help. I might try all four. Thanks Vernon

[vernon]

Thanks Ben.. Could you tell me how you plumbed your system with valves, gauges and are you running in parallel? I am about ready to start putting this thing together and need some pointers. Thanks Vernon

[BreezyHill]

I will get some pics later for you, have to get work done while the sun is shining.

The two in the unit now are in series. I will add an additional two in series to each other but parallel to the current two. This will divide the flow between the two membrane sets.
Flushing the membranes is simply a process to flood sap or permeate thru the system to remove sugar or contaminates on the filtration surface. I find that taking 2-4 minutes of allowing the unit to run at full concentrate flow will increase the flow of the membranes after production has slumped from filter plugging with sugars.

My wife says I can squeeze a fart out of a Buffalo on a nickel; but when it will make you $$$ then you need to spend a buck. I would suggest investing in flow meters and try those membranes you have. My Memtek has a inflow, membrane circulation, concentrate and permeate flow meters.

The plumbing is best done with copper lines where possible. I do use flexible tubing but I have to change them due to they are not rated for the pressures the unit achieves. Tube failure can cause serious injury and the wasting of sugar.

Go to run but will get back to you soon.

Ben

[wiam]

Ben, what model Memtek? Mine is a 250 and I added 2 in series to mine. It did not gain 100% like I hoped. I gained probably 75%. If I had it to do again I think I would put an 8" on it. I have a stainless vessel that holds 2 4" that might be available.

[BreezyHill]

It is listed as a 150. It was a demo that had an over sized pump. No recirc pump as your should have. The original pump went part way thru the first season and they installed the pump for a larger unit in the machine.

An 8" would be the way to go if redoing the entire unit...vessel and membranes. I would be interested in the vessels you have. The old vessels and membranes disappeared and I just put in two xle 4040 with vessels....oops. Eight" would have been cheaper and better sized to the pumps in the machine.

We were not as serious about making syrup two years ago as we are now. It may be a large part of our farm operation when the oldest and is girl get back from college in 3 years. At college they went to a sugar maker on a school ag business trip and ended up sharing ideas and impressed the professor with their experience. We have 3 4000 gallon storage tanks we don't use in the liquid feed business any longer and a 2000 gallon stainless truck that is seldom used; that will work well for hauling sap.

[wiam]

Mine does not have a recirculation pump.

[BreezyHill]

Mine was first run in 1981 according to the scribing on the inside of the control cover.

I think they are good units. more complicated than todays units but seem rather robust since they were built for 500 psi. The extra flow meters are very handy to gauge the unit and membrane status. I plan on keeping this one around for a long while. Just don't like the loudness of the unit.

The RO is stuck in a corner right now; behind a bunch of stuff as we are in the process of getting ready to build a walkin cooler for the syrup barrels. It may be a bit for pics. I will look in the book to see if there are any schematics

[vernon]

I have been working on my RO. I put It on a dolly so It can be moved inside when the weather turns cold. Only have to bring it 100 yards to cottage basement to where there is heat.Have most of the plumping done and now to do the electrical.Might try and pass water throw today to check how much pressure it will build up.

[vernon]

Well I guess my rig will build up pressure as I blew the end off of one of my 4x40 RO filter tubes. It was closing in on 300 psi when it blew. It could be because it is old or had a crack in it as it has had a hard life. Lucky I have a couple spare ones. I changed the blown up one for another and ran it for one and a half hours with no problems at 175 to 200 psi, only a few small water leaks. Still waiting for a few more parts (water meter and TDS meter) but think it is going to work Not sure how high to run the pressure yet? What would be a good working pressure for sap? Thanks Vernon