Send a message to this guy advertising on craigslist

[halfast tapper]

This guy is saying basically his syrup is better because he does it the old fashioned way. Is the only way he can sell his product is by bashing the way a lot of other sugar makers do it? Really????? This is how people who don't know anything about sugaring get misinformed. Look at his ad and send him a message


http://burlington.craigslist.org/grd/4405085124.html

[spud]

I would not get all uptight over this guy's ad. I don't think he is bashing anyone he's just trying to ( sell it ) to people that don't know any better. He is proud of his syrup just like everyone else. Many people think RO sap and oil fired evaporators do affect flavor but I think they all taste the same. His prices are higher then what I can buy it in our local stores.

Spud

[PerryW]

Isn't it true that using RO creates a lighter flavored syrup because there is less boiling (and less of the Browning reaction)?

And, he never says RO syrup tastes bad, just that it affects the taste.

[maple flats]

He is doing it "the old fashioned way". That might mean old lead soldered galvanized buckets, where he strains out the bugs, sticks and an occasional squirrel or chipmonk before he boils hid "pure sap". It sounds to me like he thinks the progressive producers, with much more sanitary methods don't make good syrup. It's funny that double blind taste tests show there is no difference between syrup made from raw sap vs. 8%,10% and even up to 18%+. He must be having a hard time selling his product.
I have little doubt his syrup is good, just that he basically tries to infer that it's better than what others make. Just wondering how many ribbons he's earned.

[DrTimPerkins]

...blind taste tests show there is no difference between syrup made from raw sap vs. 8%,10% and even up to 18%+.

Up to 22% there is no discernible flavor difference. Color differences are very slight. At 8%, RO syrup was slightly darker (in our tests), but got progressively lighter as concentration level increased.

The reactions that cause color and flavor development don't take long. You can definitely make syrup darker by processing slowly (or repeatedly), but if you're processing at a rapid pace, the syrup quickly gets to the color it will get as a result of the invert sugar level.

[OldManMaple]

Think you got to him:

http://burlington.craigslist.org/grd/4489750529.html

"Deer Meadow Sugar Shack still has some awesome 2014 Maple Syrup for sale. Get some before it is all gone. This syrup was collected in old fashioned pails and boiled over a wood fired arch, no tubing, no steam away, and no reverse osmosis. Maple syrup makes a great gift to share with relatives and friends."

[northwoods_forestry]

Dr Tim,

Do you have data (or can you point me to a study) that supports the statement that there is no discernible flavor difference between syrups boiled at different RO concentrations? I've heard both sides of this argument many times but I've never seen any data or rigorous study that would backup either sides' position.

Thanks

[Brokermike]

there was a guy on here that also advertises on Craiglsist that ruffled some feathers a few years back. I think the CL posting is a result of people overestimating how many "friends" they have that want to buy their syrup and expanding too quickly.

[DrTimPerkins]

Do you have data (or can you point me to a study) that supports the statement that there is no discernible flavor difference between syrups boiled at different RO concentrations? I've heard both sides of this argument many times but I've never seen any data or rigorous study that would backup either sides' position.

As far as I am concerned, there is no argument. To my knowledge, we are the only group that has done full-scale testing in actual maple evaporators comparing chemistry and flavor of maple syrup made from sap and different levels of RO concentration. There are no differences in flavor when either the volatile flavor profile is determined by mass spec flavor analysis or in side-by-side blind taste tests...and the testers weren't just people off the street, they were people from within the industry who know and understand the flavor of maple.

Dr. van den Berg has presented these findings repeatedly at maple conferences. At this point the scientific literature papers have been written (citations below). Now that those are all done, we will write up the papers for the maple industry audience.

van den Berg A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2011. Effects of producing maple syrup from concentrated and reconstituted sap of different sugar concentrations. Int. Sugar J. 113: 35 44.

van den Berg, A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2012. Maple syrup production with sap concentrated to high levels by membrane separation: effects on syrup chemical composition and flavor. Int. Sugar J. 114:572-576.

van den Berg, A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2014. Effects of membrane separation on maple syrup composition and flavor. Int. Sugar J. (in press).

We've done this three different seasons......there is no need to debate it any longer unless someone comes up with other quantifiable results.

[PerryW]

A nearby producer with several thousand taps had to throw away the concentrate from the biggest (and last) run of the season because he let it sit for several hours and it spoiled. I know nothing about RO, but perhaps someone could elaborate if this is true or not.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

A nearby producer with several thousand taps had to throw away the concentrate from the biggest (and last) run of the season because he let it sit for several hours and it spoiled. I know nothing about RO, but perhaps someone could elaborate if this is true or not.

I can't say anything about that specific case. I can say that this has happened to me the last two years and when we were at the Leader seminar in April Brad said that 8 percent sap can spoil in six hours. This was due to us having an undersized R.O. and having to run all day to boil when I got home from work. This was only for the last run and we couldn't get it through the press. It's not a function of someone using an R.O. but of keeping concentrate too long in warm weather. A neighbor who could process his sap the same day was able to go four more days than I was. Next year, God willing, we will have a right sized R.O.

[DrTimPerkins]

A nearby producer with several thousand taps had to throw away the concentrate from the biggest (and last) run of the season because he let it sit for several hours and it spoiled.

Sap is sugar water. Microbes will grow in it quite well. Reproduction of these critters is primarily a function of temperature, time, and sugar (food) concentration. Growth rates are exponential (not linear), meaning that at time 1 you have 1 of them, at time 2 you have 2, and time 3 you have 4, at time 4 you have 8, etc, and the doubling time for some of these little buggers can be measured in minutes. At that time of year (end of season), microbes are typically quite abundant in sap, and the temperature is fairly warm, so growth can be almost explosive, thus keeping sap sitting around any longer than necessary is not a good idea, and keeping concentrate sitting around is even worse (higher food concentration means unimpeded growth rates).

As with sap, it is important to filter well and process quickly.

[northwoods_forestry]

Thanks for the citations, Dr. Tim

[Tigermaple]

"As far as I am concerned, there is no argument."
I heard the same said about high fructose corn syrup having no adverse health effects based on industry research. Sugar is sugar and all that.
Of course my opinion is not very scientific but I believe RO ed syrup tastes more muddled. Not the crisp maple flavor achieved by a master sugar maker using traditional methods(not me). This can be tested by sampling the concentrate off an RO or sap cooked down to the same SC. The cooked sap is already getting the maple flavor. I would be very interested in reading any of these studies and exploring your methodology but probably not going to drop 3 grand on the subscription.

[DrTimPerkins]

I heard the same said about high fructose corn syrup having no adverse health effects based on industry research.

You are absolutely welcome to your own opinion, or as you state it, a belief. I can tell you with a fairly high degree of certainty that if you were put into a dimly lit room with syrup in unmarked and opaque containers (so you couldn't see it) and were asked to taste it and tell me how it was made that your level of comfort in making that statement would most likely rapidly fade away.

Regardless, the thing I find rather odd in your response is the implication that we would have a reason to bias the research in any direction because it is "industry" research. I can't think of any research that we could possibly do that wouldn't be considered in some way "industry" research, since pretty much the entirety of what we do is in service to the maple industry.....however the maple industry is made up of a wide variety of producers (from hobby to large commercial operations), who make syrup in a great range and diversity of ways, and also includes packers, equipment manufacturers, regulators, etc. Furthermore, the USDA funded all of that research.....the "industry" did not.

In any case, the way these tests are done is quite fun. Several (25-30+) participants (drawn from the maple industry) are presented with three samples (all in the same type of container with coded labels that mean nothing to them) that are in sample bottles they can't see through and in a dimly lit room. Two of the bottles have exactly the same syrup. The other bottle has a different syrup. Some participants may get two syrups made with RO and one without. The others may get two make without RO and one with. In all cases the RO concentrate came from the same batch of sap on the same day, and the syrup was made in identical evaporators tuned at the beginning of the season to operate in exactly the same way. The objective is for the taster to identify the sample that is different. It is not unlike that game on Sesame Street where you have to identify the "one of these things that's not like the others", but in this case, it is called a triangle test. Based purely on chance, 50% of the time the participants will be right, and 50% of the time they will be wrong. If they judge the samples correctly a significant number of times more than 50%, then we can declare that the participants could, in fact, discern a difference, and thus a true difference in flavor exists. If the response rate is not significantly different than 50:50, then the participants could not tell a difference in the flavor alone.

What was found was that participants were not able to distinguish the difference between samples of syrup produced from the a batch of sap or concentrate made from that sap made on the same day in the same style of evaporator. Similarly, they could not tell the difference between syrups made from different levels of concentrate up to 22 Brix made from the same sap on the same day in the same way. Finally, they could not tell the difference between sap that had been RO processed and then diluted back to the starting sap concentration from syrup made with unprocessed sap or concentrate made from the same sap on the same day.

All of these studies have been published (or are in press) in a peer-reviewed journal (meaning that other scientists have reviewed the methods and results and deemed them worthy of publication).

In summary....feel free to believe what you wish. I choose to believe that which is supported by a copious amount of evidence.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

copious .
I have typically only heard this word used with other NATURAL PRODUCTS
Just saying:lol:

[Tigermaple]

Dr Tim, I didn't intend to imply you were working for the "industry" but in rereading my post I see I could have worded my sentence better. I was simply saying much research has a lot to be desired. Research bias and variables, as you know, are quite difficult to manage. Again, not having read your work on this, but your brief description, I would say the n is small to say the least. Sampling just from maple people? Why not random or both? I also understand why you used opaque containers, but sight and smell are part of taste. I may be wrong but I know many people who agree with me, so outside of the sterility of the laboratory, the debate does not seem closed. That said, I greatly appreciate your enthusiasm, assistance and dedication to this blog and all things maple.

[Moser's Maple]

sounds like you need to enter your syrup in the NYS state fair contest
or Vermont Maple Rama
or the Winter Royal Agriculture Fair in Canada
or the Annual IMSI/NAMSC syrup contest at the annual meeting
or the World Maple Festival
then when you find out the results judged by professional judges that use sight, smell, taste you can see if a ro syrup does better or a "traditional" syrup does better. but remember this is based on the judges personal preference also. everybody is entitled to their opinion, but when fact is presented then you should rethink your opinion. just my .02

[DrTimPerkins]

Research bias and variables, as you know, are quite difficult to manage.

I agree that careful design in any research is important. That is one reason scientists must train for such a long period of time to learn the techniques to limit/reduce bias in experimental design and execution. After spending 5 yrs getting two Bachelor's Degrees, 4 yrs on a Master's, and 3 additional years on a Ph.D. and having 23 yrs of experience doing research, I think I'm fairly well versed in designing research projects. Dr. van den Berg was also involved in this (so add another 11 yrs education and 10 yrs experience), as was a technician (7 yrs college and many years of experience). We do this for a living....we know what we're doing.


Again, not having read your work on this, but your brief description, I would say the n is small to say the least.

Sample size is always one of those things that is difficult to balance. Obviously more is generally better, however trade-offs in what is achievable within a single season (doing things carefully makes it more difficult than simply boiling sap), and what the funding agency will pay for is always a big factor. If we had an unlimited budget (that never happens), doing more samples and repeating this project over more years than the three we did would have been great.

I'm unsure which particular sample size you are referring to. The various experiments have different sample sizes depending upon which way you want to look at it. For the taste testing, the number of participants ranged from about 22-30, and the sample sets examined ranged from about 4-6 different boils each season, however each of these were paired designs. The sample size was obviously adequate to pass peer-review.

Most importantly, this work was done in full-scale evaporators in the same way that maple producers would make syrup. This syrup was not made in a laboratory (see photo below).


Sampling just from maple people? Why not random or both?

Because the general population doesn't seem to think to ask this question (or care, or notice that there is a difference), but maple producers are interested in the question. People within the maple industry presumably should be far better at distinguishing flavor in maple syrup. Using people who are very familiar with maple syrup is obviously a far more rigorous test. They did not know which samples they were tasting (or even what scientific question was being asked), so they could not game the test.


sight and smell are part of taste

Actually, sight is not part of the sense of smell, although it certainly can influence the interpretation of what is being tasted. It is quite standard in taste testing to not allow participants to see the samples. In some testing, participants are put into dimly lit rooms of different colors so they cannot see the colors of the food they are tasting. We are very familiar with techniques used in the sensory evaluation of flavor. We evaluated transmittance (grade) with a spectrophotometer.

In addition to the organoleptic (taste) triangle-test evaluation I described, we also measured volatile flavor compounds by mass spec (SPME GC-TOF-MS). The results were consistent.

So again, feel free to believe what you wish. But as far as a debate goes, there is abundant scientific evidence suggesting there is no difference, and only (and I would go as far as to say highly biased) conjecture that there is a difference. Thus my contention that there is no real debate -- research says there is no difference, and opinion/belief of some producers that says there is.

As Moser alluded to, there are many examples of maple producers who use RO or air injection who have won syrup contests. If RO (or air injection) damaged the flavor of syrup in some way, the deck would very clearly be stacked against them and they would rarely rank highly in contests. That is simply not the case.

9756

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Wow nice picture!

[TonyL]

Perhaps, when dealing with smaller volumes in a niche, retail market, one would be wise to try and sell the "experience" of maple syrup, not just the flavor? In this case, color might take on a greater significance, just like the packaging itself would. (glass, with an attractive, custom label).

As part of that "experience", the story behind the making of maple syrup might play a much greater role in creating sales opportunities for the small producer. Like it or not, nostalgia sells. And there's not much romantic nostalgia associated with an RO. My limited inquiries tell me that much of the general public's vision of syrup making harkens back to the days of horse drawn sleds, buckets on trees, wood fires, and overnight boils. At least here in my area. Catering to that idea as much as is practical, might be a powerful sales aid in the retail market.

We all want to produce great tasting, safe to consume, syrup. But after it's made we need to sell it.....promoting what you, or in this case the general public, perceives as your syrup's strong points, (hopefully it's taste, but I wouldn't overlook color, or packaging, or the all important backstory as to its production), is just savvy marketing.

It doesn't mean that syrup produced by ultra modern techniques is somehow inferior to yours at all. It just means you're doing your best to set your product apart from the guy down the road, who's also making and selling syrup.

Find the niche, and leverage it.

[Cabin]

Ok But does this hold true for all species of maples that we tap or just sugar maples??? ;-)

[bowhunter]

Dr. Tim,

Thanks for all your research in support of the maple syrup industry. I understand it's a job and you work to live just like everyone else, but it's clear you're a dedicated scientist. I'm an engineer by training and really like reading the research you've presented over the past two years. My father-in-law was a good man, but he believed the earth was flat 'til the day he died..... even 20 years after we put men on the moon. It's always been funny to see how most people view the unknown from one of two perspectives. One group adopts a theory and rejects any data or information that isn't consistent with their theory. The other group weighs the data and develops a theory or premise based on the data. I guess that's just the way we're wired.

[TheMapleMoose]

Now that those are all done, we will write up the papers for the maple industry audience.

van den Berg A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2011. Effects of producing maple syrup from concentrated and reconstituted sap of different sugar concentrations. Int. Sugar J. 113: 35 44.

van den Berg, A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2012. Maple syrup production with sap concentrated to high levels by membrane separation: effects on syrup chemical composition and flavor. Int. Sugar J. 114:572-576.

van den Berg, A.K., Perkins, T.D., Isselhardt, M.L., Godshall, M.A. and Lloyd, S.W. 2014. Effects of membrane separation on maple syrup composition and flavor. Int. Sugar J. (in press).

We've done this three different seasons......there is no need to debate it any longer unless someone comes up with other quantifiable results.

I am interested to read these. Are they available to the public, and if so, where could I find them. When do you expect to have the "maple industry version" ready for digestion?

[DrTimPerkins]

I am interested to read these. Are they available to the public, and if so, where could I find them. When do you expect to have the "maple industry version" ready for digestion?

They are available if you have access to a good University, College or Government library available for you to use. Subscriptions to these types of journals tend to be rather pricey (low circulation). Some journals will sell individual copiers of published papers, but these too are fairly costly.

We are working on the industry papers now. Best guess is that they will start to come out in 6-12 months. They will be posted to http:/www.uvm/~pmrc and announced on this forum when available.

[southfork]

Thank you Dr. Perkins for your scientific contributions to the maple industry. As a doctor myself, I prefer science over legends and lore.