Would you tap a woods that is mostly reds.

[Dave Y]

I have be offered some woods to tap, the only thing that concerns me is that it is mostly red maple. There a fair amount of large trees and a good number of younger trees inmixed w/cherry beech and hemlock. the trerrain is almost perfect for tubbing. down hill all the way to the road. Is it worth the investment. I tap mostly road side trees and would like to have taps that I dont have to empty by hand.

[802maple]

Yep I wood

[royalmaple]

Yes indeed, that is what I got. Especially if they are clumped together. I got a new spot to set up this year, all reds and nice big trees. Not much for crowns since they are all in the woods and has not been thinned for maple production but a bunch of pine was taken out about 15-20 years ago. About all the maples in one area are all red and about 18-24 inch trees, not many younger ones, slight pitch but I bet in about 800 foot run there is 300-400 taps easy. It is a 70 acre lot with about 50-55 acres of woods and pretty evenly aged mature stand of wood on it. There is about 40-50 taps on sugars around the farmhouse.

That was my first look, so next time I know where to start my investigating.

I look at it this way, if I want to ask 50 different people permission to tap their couple of sugars out front of their house(and when do you draw the line), I can do that and put on the miles collecting and time collecting or tap woods with reds in them. Soil & other topographical factors don't help with sugar maples in my immediate area being in the woods. They are on the roadside, but not too many in the woods.

So if I want to tap in numbers on tubing and maybe hook up vacuum, then it is reds.

Until the sugars show up in numbers I'll take the reds.

[Sugarmaker]

Dave Y,
You could try them for a year on buckets, if you can gather them, and see how they do? Good luck. Better get that little poly tank you got from me shined up and ready.
Chris

[Daren]

almost all of mine are reds also and I made 12 gallons on 63 taps, all of which are in mixed woods with hemlock, yellow and white birch, cherry and hophornbeam (?spelling aka hardack). They may bud a bit early and maybe produce a little more niter, but the syrup is just as tasty as any that I have ever tasted. Tap away man!

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I would also certainly tap 'em...quite a few of mine are reds...they don't always run as well, but certainly worth it!

[220 maple]

Dave Y
My friend Henry Breneman of Salisbury,Pa. said never pass up a red maple because they give the syrup a better favor. I 've tapped many a red maple. Only a couple of draw backs. They bud out about two to three weeks ahead of the sugars and will need to be pulled earlier. And the sap is not as sweet and will require longer boiling which creates darker syrup.
I believe they run just as good as a sugar.
Mark 220 Maple

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I would have to agree about that flavor issue!! Another producer not to far from me says the same thing. :D

[Dave Y]

Thanks for the replies! Everyone has the same opinion I have, but wanted to make sure I not nuts. There is 43 acres! Land has good slope. I am told that there used to be a sugarbush in those woods but it wasn't cared for properly and the sugarmaples died off.

sugarmaker,
I may have to trade that little tank in on a bigger one. I am looking at an older t-plate dump to haul sap with. It was alittle hard on my ranger last year as I hualed over 2000 gal on it. I am working on other trees also. hoping to get to 700 this year

[Jim Brown]

Dave Y. GO FOR IT!! I have 100 acres leased and they are mostly reds. The 400 we have on our daughters is mostly reds,. Made great syrup last year. will have thoses 400 on vac. this year and the leased on vac in two years.
Jim

[mapleman3]

I highly agree with the taste, My customers cherish my syrup, they say it has very good flavor, 1/3 of my trees are reds... now not to put down you nice folks up north but alot of my "diehard vermont maple buyers" now stay home and come to me and buy syrup for the flavor and of course the closeness... it's funny too that they always bought the "fancy" and now will ask for my medium and dark more.

Tap them... They may give you more sugar sand and may bud a bit earlier but in my book it's worth it !!

Again my apologies to you fellow sugarers up north... You do make fine syrup :wink: 8)

[royalmaple]

I have had many customers taste my syrup which is primarily from reds, and people just love it. And I don't think they are all telling me that to make me blush.

I think they are a hidden gem, and with more and more people wanting the darker syrup well that is where you'll have a better chance of producing it. But on the other hand if you are trying to make as much syrup as you can per tap and per hour on your evaporator your not going to like you as if you had all sugars running at 3+%.

But my reds last year were running 2% pretty steady all season and roadside reds were even higher. Which is still more sugar than some of the guys down south get.

I don't care about the boiling time yet, since I am just sap hungry. And I don't have much of a choice.

Thank god the trader is back up and running, I was going through withdrawls.

[Dave Y]

I am tapping a mix of sugars and reds currently most all road side trees. I do realize there is a differnce in taste. In my opinion a favorable difference. Last year i collected a lot of 3.5 sap with reds mixed in. I may go and test some trees to see what kind of sugar content they have. then I will know for sure if i will need to start buying tubing. and drolling over vaccum systems.

[Sugarbear]

If I tapped the reds in my sugarbush I could add about 100 taps.I was always told the sugar content of the sap was lower and it would take more boiling.I have never heard about the flovor difference.Sounds interesting.

[Dave Y]

sugarbear,
If you are tapping all sugars now, 100 reds won't make that much difference. I know from experince that the flavor is better. Some times the sugar content is low however I have a couple of reds that are 2.5. some time the red maple gets a bad rap.

[maplehound]

I could add about 200 taps to my woods if I went with reds. I have decided to go with just sugars since the weather is warmer where I am than it is in the north part of the state. The reds here bud so early that most years they are swelled to the point of bursting when I am just tapping the sugars. The tast of buddy syrup is nothing I want in my syrup that I sell.

[tapper]

Dave
I have tapped reds since I started and somewhat got away from them when I found the sap to syrup ratio was 100 to 1. A LOT of boiling. If you mix a few reds with your sugars you probably wont notice much difference. If you love boiling go for it!!!

[Russell Lampron]

If you have an RO machine the sugar content doesn't make much difference the RO takes the extra water out.

Russ

[maple flats]

I started tapping a few reds last season and did not notice a difference in flavor, it was the same usual great flavor. I had the reds on buckets and the sugars on gravity tubing. The reds budded about 8 days before the sugars, last year was not typical here. Everything started rather late and then stayed too warm too soon, my entire season was short. However I am again going to tap some reds again and am doing more of them. My sugars are tapped fully and to add more I need to do reds as well as rent roadsides.

[HanginAround]

My friend taps about 100, almost all reds, every bit of syrup we made was borderline light/extra light, great flavour, and was made in a batch pan and finished on the stove.

[Cardigan99]

The economic rational "profit maximization" for reds would be to tap to the point where the additional costs (fuel, labor etc.) is equal to the addition revenue generated. Either way, I plan to tap about a 50/50 mix this year. I'm not in it for the money, just the syrup. :)

[maple maniac65]

There is nothing wrong with tapping Red Maple. Bruce Bascom in Alstead has about 50,000 taps and it is not all Rock Maple. I went to a VT sugar house last fall in Franklin County with 4000 taps and over half of them were Reds and he makes alot of light syrup. As for myself I have 400 taps at my place and half of them are Reds. I lease another 600 taps that are 99% Rock.

[royalmaple]

If you look around for the other posts on red maples you'll get the picture.

Most if not all reds run lower in sugar % than rocks, so that in turn means more boiling for the same amount of syrup. Which potentially means darker syrup. So that is the main concern with producers. But if you want to make syrup, you have to tap something other than oaks, pines, hemlocks. So use what you got.

I tap nearly 90% reds, and I am adding on several hundred more this year. Pretty much all I got around me, still make some wonderful syrup. I am not a bulk producer so light syrup does not mean as much to me, and if I sell any commercial syrup at bulk, I'll take the hit on the price. I don't rely on the syrup to make ends meet so it is not as much of a concern to me.

If you got all huge crown rock maples, take them first, then go for the reds. If you are running tubing and you go buy a huge red tap it, I don't think there is anyone that will not put a tap in it. That would make no sense.

If you got 3 sugar maples and 5000 reds, well you get the picture.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Ok- when i go by hemlock and pine i put in 2 tap each ok?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Ok- when i go by hemlock and pine i put in 2 tap each ok and when i go by a spruce i add 3 tap so i get the spruce gum flavor? Haven't had any of that rot gut stuff in over 2 decade's.

[royalmaple]

You figured out my trick. Actually if you do tap a hemlock and you are on gravity you want 1 tap, two for vacuum. Then you hook a vacuum transfer compacitor to the line and it will bring up the vacuum in the small dia. pipe enought to get higher vacuum. There is a fine line between too many hemlocks on a lateral and just enough to efficiently get good vacuum transfer. You really got to mess with your system to see what works best for you. That is just some preliminary experiments I had.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Too many Hemlocks on the equalizer line won't hurt the transfer too bad will it?

[royalmaple]

I've found it can, but as long as you run your latteral in a horseshoe pattern and use a double manifold you'll be ok.

It is a mess if you don't set it up right, you'll be wishing you never tried it.

There is a bunch of fittings that northern tool had that really helped. But I did find them cheaper at Mcmaster carr. There is a neat vacuum release switch they have that makes the world of difference. Most switches I looked at were 408v and I didn't have the power to run them.

When you stop by this summer I'll show you what I am talking about. It is just too hard to explain in the detail you need to set it up by typing.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Sounds like a work of art?
Now i'm hoping that they don't flow a certain pattern do they?
If they flow for only 2 days and i don't tap in right i'll be out of the game...

[royalmaple]

Timing is critical, but you can tap early with no harmful effects.
Too late and you've missed it.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

What would be the proper time table to tap in on as i don't want to miss the boat so to say...

[royalmaple]

it varies from area to area, I take the elevation in feet, divide by the average temperature, and then multiply by the days above freezing. Subtract 1/2 point to get to the nearest whole number, and that should be pretty accurate. Of course the barometric pressure can come into it or you may find it just doesn't work for you at all, but it is fun trying.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

I'll try it and see if it will work for me?

[markcasper]

I think you multiply it by 3.14, not # of days above freezing, as the # of days would depend whether you're on the top or on the bottom?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Now does geographic area have any play into those figure's? i see there is someone else that may have experience with this/not sure if a certain longitude or latitude helps? got to get my GPS out and look this up on a map? any links to that or what? Still trying to follow the leader...

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Also if you do have some coordinates could you please tell me what Map Datum ? you are using so i don't get lost as then i might need your help and i can't wait for a reply overnight on something i have to know as i don't want to start into this "blindfolded" so to say.

Thanks for all your help..

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

I found this link=will this help get me started?http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/shaffer59.html

[royalmaple]

Mark-

3.14 will work, but I would only recommend that if you are using vacuum. If you are using gravity your probably better off to use the average days method.

But what works for me may not work for others.

[Dave Y]

I think the crap is almost as deep as the snow. Better get your waders on, or learn how to swim in it.

[royalmaple]

Dave-

Come on, what led you to believe that? You haven't tried it yet, that must be it?

:-)

[Dave Y]

I have wastewater treatment lisence. You could say i know what crap looks like.

[markcasper]

So really what you are saying is that you have a "crappy" kind of job? While i was pondering the latitude and longditude question, it brought up one other question that would be appropriate at this time.

If a pig drank a quart of buttermilk before he started, then ran a mile before he farted, how far would he run before he !%#T ?

[Russell Lampron]

If you go by a Hemlock cut it down, it is shading your maples.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

If you go by a Hemlock cut it down, it is shading your maples.

Russ



Now that brings up another subject. I have a mixed sugarbush and I like to hunt just a little bit more that I like to make syrup. So at near 65 years old I am not cutting my bush down for a few gallons of syrup.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Timber, Timber, Timber and more Timber- i don't want anymore softwood in my bush as the little B-Turds=long eared whitetail rodents like to stay in there longer and after they get up from bedding down for the afternoon they start chewing on my drop tubes.90+% of the tubes that are chewed upon are right beside softwood. Gotta get out there now and see what they been up too? Seen a track go right up the lateral line Tap for Tap and hammered on 3 of them in a row.

Bazooka time..........Triple thumbs down with softwood in the sugarbush=Deer i don't want, more sap that i could use and more nutrients for the trees that i want to survive longer.

[Fred Henderson]

Timber, Timber, Timber and more Timber- i don't want anymore softwood in my bush as the little B-Turds=long eared whitetail rodents like to stay in there longer and after they get up from bedding down for the afternoon they start chewing on my drop tubes.90+% of the tubes that are chewed upon are right beside softwood. Gotta get out there now and see what they been up too? Seen a track go right up the lateral line Tap for Tap and hammered on 3 of them in a row.

Bazooka time..........Triple thumbs down with softwood in the sugarbush=Deer i don't want, more sap that i could use and more nutrients for the trees that i want to survive longer.

What you willing to pay for ever one (fuzzy face critter) that I harvast for you.

[Dave Y]

I think we need to have a break in the weather so everyone can tap. The long protracted fall weather worked on everyones mind, and now that winter has set in late I think some of you guys are about to go off the deep end. You fellas need something to do bad.

[Fred Henderson]

Dave, You are so right, but we just got to hold out a little longer. I set about rebuilding the 3 point hitch, 2 barrell carrier that I welded up some time ago. This time it will be a real carry-all. I think the RTV will have trouble with the deep snow. The tractor will work better.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Fred- Now you ask me a ?= I thought you weren't going to do that ??.. You can ask me anything you want=even tapping softwood or whatever.

I don't think it could be legal for me to pay you so if you want to shoot them you can when you feel like it? After you have to replace like 30-50 drops a year from them chewing on them=you'll get the idea.

[Fred Henderson]

Well you didn't remind me and I O forgotted but if its a problem we can stop right here.
I am curious are male or female? You sure got a female disposition sometimes.

[802maple]

ha ha ha ha

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Fred- Now you was the one that said that not me..Can i call you Daddy?? Last i looked i was a male. But like you said it all depends=if you want to you can call me Katrina when you feel like it? I'll know who your talking too.

So back to the ? Would you tap a woods that are all red maple??

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

My wife got a laugh over fred's post asking me the male or female? She's right/sometimes i'm a little hard on people and especially her when her memory is shorter then a couple of days=I'll remind her how smart/forget full she is in a sarcastic way=then the battle starts to heat up bigtime and i come out on top. My remark to her is=Pay attention for once.

Sorry Fred or anyone for all the grieve i have caused in the past-please remind me if i do so again and tell me to smarten the ____ up..

I'm going to be as nice as a kitten from now on!!!

[royalmaple]

I got some warm milk out in a small dish for you.

[royalmaple]

I am doing just this topic right now, well not right now. I'll post some pictures of the set up soon. Gotta bring my camera with me.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Ok- Wise guy. (;