Better to down size arch or replace current pans with an RO up size?

[Sunday Rock Maple]

We have an older RO with an E8 membrane that does about 90 gallons of 8% concentrate per hour at best. I'm planning to go to a 1200 RO and 15% concentrate. We run a 5 by 14 oil fired with copper pans (1988 vintage) that does about 300 gallons per hour and we have about 3,000 taps on high vacuum with no expansion plans. Would you replace the current pans or go with something like a 3 by 10 with a steamaway?

Thanks,

[ennismaple]

Ideally you want your evaporator to match the RO output so you don't need much concentrate ahead of you before you fire up?. The 1200 RO will push out how much per hour - about 200 gallons?

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

On 2% or less sap, you will never get 200 gal. of 15% /hr. out of a 2 post machine. 2/min. or 120 /hr would be pushing it. If you want to match your ro(2 post) to your boiling rate, a 3x10 would be pretty close with just a preheater without a steamaway.
Neil

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess I wasn't thinking so much about matching RO output per hour to evaporator boiling rate but rather overall speed to process one days worth of sap. Sounds like matching is the best way to do this though? One concern is not having enough concentrate to run the larger rig. Does it work out that 3000 gallons of 2% is about 400 gallons of 15% concentrate? If so, perhaps the rig is too big?

[mellondome]

You should look at how much water you remove per time frame available instead of matching outputs. The ro will run without your evaporator running. If it takes 3 hours to collect all your sap, you can start an ro as soon as you have sap to it... letting it remove water while you continue to collect.

Is there any reason you are set on 15%?

[brookledge]

One thing I would consider is if the pans have lead solder in them. If so get new pans or a new evaporater. There will come a time when you will be required to get rid of them and you don't want to be the last one holding them
Keith

[Sunday Rock Maple]

You should look at how much water you remove per time frame available instead of matching outputs. The ro will run without your evaporator running. If it takes 3 hours to collect all your sap, you can start an ro as soon as you have sap to it... letting it remove water while you continue to collect.

Is there any reason you are set on 15%?

I was looking at 15% as the highest I could expect to go to and still get enough carmelization in the pans, but after reading that Proctor has done blind taste tests with no difference up to 22% I'm now thinking that I should be boiling 20%. With a typical 3,000 gallon run at 2% sap, I think this should be about 2.5 hours on the R.O. (with decent sap) to wind up with 300 gallons of concentrate which is perhaps a little over an hour on our current pans. I've since looked into the cost of a smaller new evaporator versus replacing the current pans and it looks like replacement is the way to go and that will give us a passing gear if we do expand in the future.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I was looking at 15% as the highest I could expect to go to and still get enough carmelization in the pans, but after reading that Proctor has done blind taste tests with no difference up to 22% I'm now thinking that I should be boiling 20%. With a typical 3,000 gallon run at 2% sap, I think this should be about 2.5 hours on the R.O. (with decent sap) to wind up with 300 gallons of concentrate which is perhaps a little over an hour on our current pans. I've since looked into the cost of a smaller new evaporator versus replacing the current pans and it looks like replacement is the way to go and that will give us a passing gear if we do expand in the future.I think you will find it hard to get 20% on one pass with a 2 post ro and still maintain the flow you want. If you want to make 20%, you will probably have to send it through twice or recirculate.
Neil

[Sunday Rock Maple]

I think you will find it hard to get 20% on one pass with a 2 post ro and still maintain the flow you want. If you want to make 20%, you will probably have to send it through twice or recirculate.
Neil

I think that is correct now but I'm hoping it will no longer hold true with the larger pressure vessels and pumps in the new Leader units . They're claiming 20 gallons per minute of raw sap processed to 20 percent from 2 percent at 40 degrees with reasonable sap. I'm assuming this is a disclaimer for end of season stuff. In any event, We'll find out next year, but I am hopeful.

[mellondome]

you want to take 3000 gal to 20% before boiling.. and you boil 300 gal/hr.

so you will only be boiling for about 1 to 1.5 hours per day.( average day, not sure what you do on a slow day) You will be spending more time cleaning your pans than you will boiling on them.

Personally, i think that this will be making your syrup darker..as you are not at a boil for long, leaving a lot of heat time ( startup and cool down) on your high concentrate sap. If it was me, I would be looking for smaller pans. you can run the RO when you are not boiling (while collecting, eating dinner, finishing up your day job,...)

3000 gal taken to 8% from 2% will leave you about 750 gal to boil. With your current pans, that is still only 3 hours of boiling time.

then again, maybe you only have couple hours a day to commit to boiling.

[jimbison]

I have put myself in the same boat 1600 taps on a 4x12 just ordered a RO from Ray is it better to concentrate less to give more boiling time or to go higher concentrate boil less set idle longer more heat time 1600 gal.-8%=400 =3hours boil 6%=640=4 1/2 hours is there a happy medium of boiling time vs concentration?

[mellondome]

Just like any other business. Cost is a big driving factor. If you can give upyou a little because of a higher % being darker (med or dark)because you are saving more on fuel... then concentrate higher . If fuel and time are not issues.. than a lower concentration might be better.
Or just add another 1000 taps !

From personal experience, short boils will lead to dark syrup... especially if you are shutting down before you get a good gradient established.

If you are at your max tap potential, you may want to consider a pan downsizing. Then you can concentrate higher... while boiling 4+ hours , making lighter syrup and saving even more on fuel costs.

I was at 1100 taps on a 2x6 this year. This is where an ro pays off.