NEW Equipment Reviews / Purchases

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I was wondering what people are looking at for the upcoming season. I would like to get several new pieces this year to allow the operation to expand like I want.

My problem is there is a lot to choose from. Of course every dealer will tell you that their product is better for this or that reason. I am hoping to get some unbiased feedback from everyone on equipment they have tried, and what they are considering to buy. Aswell, leaving money aside, what is the best product for each job and why?

I am looking to find the best options for a large storage tank - I hope to get something in the 4-6,000 gal range. Bigger would work too. Open top ideally.

Best option for Releasers capable of 10,000 taps. Mechanical types that set on top of storage tank and provide continuous vacuum.

Best options for Filter press capable of 10+ barrels per paper change

Best option for 1000 gph RO

These are the things on my wish list. Thanks for any insight.

Ben

[ennismaple]

We plan to add another tower to our RO.

We're also planning to add another 300-400 taps.

I don't think the Busch pump will happen this year - probably a 2015 purchase for the 2016 season.

[maple flats]

I've got to see if I can find a way to get a vacuum pump that will do 25+" for my bigger bush, this year's season won't do it. I will be adding more taps at that bush too, maybe 200-250 more, 300 at the most. Also thinking of a new filter press pump, no decision on SS gear VS diaphragm.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I am adding nothing. My wife told me if i add another tap, there wouldnt be any tapping going on at home.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I am adding nothing. My wife told me if i add another tap, there wouldnt be any tapping going on at home.

Nice, well I think I remember you saying you had like 20 dead ones that got tapped, so you should have freedom to add a roll or two of new ones.

How many gallons of storage do you need with 7800 taps? Is the 1500 RO able to keep up fine? If you were buying a new Releaser and filter press, what would you recommend.

Thanks,
Ben

[maplwrks]

Ben, you will need at least 14000 gallons of starage and a 2400 gph RO. I would go with a minimum of a 10" press. As far as releasers go, I would stick with a mechanical releaser, made by a good reputible company.They all make good releasers, how they work for you depends on your maintenance program.
Keep one thing in mind Ben, Keep it simple, don't over complicate things. You will be spending a lot of $$$, sometime functional is much more practical than fancy.

[Amber Gold]

Darveau makes the best tanks. Aluminum framed so they're light, well built, flat bottom like Lapierre's so more storage for a comparable sized tank, reasonably priced. I have two.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I'll check out the Darveau tanks - I want at least 1 gal per tap for this year, so I gotta do something fast.

Mike, if you know me you wouldn't worry about me spending money on fancy stuff just for the sake of it. However, I am a believer in that you get what you pay for. Which is why I listened to Dr. Tim's feedback and picked up a Busch this past season. I loved it, unlike the Vacuum's I used to have, I didn't worry about it all season. I will be getting another one when I need it. I doubt I'll ever go back to a liquid cooled pump again.

I was looking at the new Leader RO 1000 GPH. They look like they can crank and have heard a few strong reviews from two trusted dealers. Is anyone else thinking of going this route?

Good advice on the releaser. I was at D&G the other day looking at their releaser and filter press. They both look very nice, especially when compared to what I have now.

Ben

[Randy Brutkoski]

I also bought 2 busch pumps this past year and loved them. The highest vacuum i have evr had. But also did alot of walking in the woods too. 14000 gallons of storage would be nice but if you have your ro going while you are getting sap you really can get away with less. I have 6400 gallons of storage at my sugarhouse which works fine. But if all your sap is coming directly to your sugarhouse from your woods with no hauling than i would go to 2 gallons per tap worth of storage. My ro will do more than 1500 an hour if i dont pinch it so much. my rig was keeping up with 20% going into my headtank on the first pass. New membrains helped.

[PATheron]

My advise get all the ro you can afford. I cant imagine doing 10000 taps with a 1000 gph ro. I don't think that's possible unless your only going to low concentrate because of a steamaway or something. I have that many taps and all I have at the sugarshack is a 6200 gallon tanker trailer and its not enough. This year I was using around 3000 gallon per hour of ro and I had times it got iffy. Had to put raw sap in permeate tanks even which kind of stinks. We had one day that we got 25000 gallons just during the day and you have to remember that 1000 gph ro is going to maybe do 1000 gph to 8% . If you try to single pass to higher concentrate it slows right down. Good rule of thumb itll about half it. If you get 25000 gallons and you recirc the sap in a tanker trailer youll never get it very high because youll keep diluting it down as the sap keeps coming in and also youll never get to the bottom of the tank to clean it which is big time because that will slow the ro down. Either buy a real big tank or tanks or buy a real big ro. Get an ro with two high pressure pumps on it and several posts then you can recirc and get rid of big amounts of water real quick or just pinch it down and single pass it right to the number you want. My two cents, good luck.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

My advise get all the ro you can afford. I cant imagine doing 10000 taps with a 1000 gph ro. I don't think that's possible unless your only going to low concentrate because of a steamaway or something. I have that many taps and all I have at the sugarshack is a 6200 gallon tanker trailer and its not enough. This year I was using around 3000 gallon per hour of ro and I had times it got iffy. Had to put raw sap in permeate tanks even which kind of stinks. We had one day that we got 25000 gallons just during the day and you have to remember that 1000 gph ro is going to maybe do 1000 gph to 8% . If you try to single pass to higher concentrate it slows right down. Good rule of thumb itll about half it. If you get 25000 gallons and you recirc the sap in a tanker trailer youll never get it very high because youll keep diluting it down as the sap keeps coming in and also youll never get to the bottom of the tank to clean it which is big time because that will slow the ro down. Either buy a real big tank or tanks or buy a real big ro. Get an ro with two high pressure pumps on it and several posts then you can recirc and get rid of big amounts of water real quick or just pinch it down and single pass it right to the number you want. My two cents, good luck.Theron is right on the money. I have a 3 post ro with 2 hi-pressure pumps on 6400 taps. I single pass to around 17% And have 7500 gallons of storage at sh. The ro is not big enough. I am adding another post for next year. There was a few runs this year that all my tanks were full and the sap was running faster than the ro could process it. Get at least a 4 post machine if you want 10,000 taps.
Neil

[PATheron]

Other thing to remember is with these large machines, this is my opinion, they are only going to do 600 gph per membrane 75% of the water and that's only if they are clean and have enough high pressure pump. So say you have a six post machine and two 7.5 high pressure pumps which isn't an excess of high pressure pump the machine is only going to do 3600 gph to 8% on a good day with clean sap etc. If you want like 18% youll pinch it down to a couple gallons per minute of concentrate, maybe a little more, and its going to do 1800 gph on a good day. If a sales man tells you that itll do more to that bigger concentrate number because of somekind of magic in it you don't understand trust your instincts. Theron

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Wow, thanks for the info, that is just what I was looking for. This yr had some big runs for me and with tanks running over, and nearly no sleep for several days I am ready for the big RO. I think the Leader RO had a 7.5, or maybe even a 10HP pump per 2 posts. And yes I do have a 6*8 steam away on a 10' flue pan. So my plan was to put it into the steam away at 12-14%, hoping it would be 18% by the time it hits the flues. I may not be able to get a loan, so I will have to work some magic. I will somehow, but a 3000 gph RO that will feed my evaporator is 30-40K from what I can see. Add in 10K in storage, filter press, barrels, lines. I may not hit the 10, or even 5 K mark this yr on total taps, so I want to get the right equipment in the right order. For now I will look at a 4 post. I really like the idea of a reverse flow. Where you run can reverse the flow of the sap into the membranes to clean them during a big run. Only on 4 membranes or more from what I understand. I also want to build or get a reverse flow for the evaporator so I don't have to change pans around as often, or at all maybe even.

I have heard it several time now in the past two weeks. The new money is to put your money into your RO. I think I'm starting to listen and will see what my options are. I wanted to pull the trigger on the 1K unit, now I am backing down a bit. I need to find out how much the 2400 is first. I'm scared a little.

[wiam]

The reported flows on Leaders new RO's sound really good. Bigger pumps and bigger membrane housings. Not sure but they also talked about reversing. Not sure what size can reverse.

[sjdoyon]

Theron,

We had a two post Lapierre RO (900gph) for this spring with over 10,000 taps, with no steamaway or preheater. Did it work? Kind of.

We had several days we boiled 20 hours and the RO ran 24hrs (including wash cycles). We normally were doing a single pass at around 15%, our sap was averaging about 2.5% coming into the sugarhouse for the season.

I won't speak about the several days of 25,000 plus gallons of sap that tried to come into the sugarhouse.

Do we plan on doing this next spring. Heck no. You can't handle the large runs, not enough hours in the day.

We are upgrading our RO to a four post (1,800gph) and adding a 6,000 gallon tank for additional storage since we currently only have 4,000 gallons storage capacity.

Of course we'll probably add another 4-5,000 taps in a year or two and continue this crazy cycle of buying and upgrading.

Steve





My advise get all the ro you can afford. I cant imagine doing 10000 taps with a 1000 gph ro. I don't think that's possible unless your only going to low concentrate because of a steamaway or something. I have that many taps and all I have at the sugarshack is a 6200 gallon tanker trailer and its not enough. This year I was using around 3000 gallon per hour of ro and I had times it got iffy. Had to put raw sap in permeate tanks even which kind of stinks. We had one day that we got 25000 gallons just during the day and you have to remember that 1000 gph ro is going to maybe do 1000 gph to 8% . If you try to single pass to higher concentrate it slows right down. Good rule of thumb itll about half it. If you get 25000 gallons and you recirc the sap in a tanker trailer youll never get it very high because youll keep diluting it down as the sap keeps coming in and also youll never get to the bottom of the tank to clean it which is big time because that will slow the ro down. Either buy a real big tank or tanks or buy a real big ro. Get an ro with two high pressure pumps on it and several posts then you can recirc and get rid of big amounts of water real quick or just pinch it down and single pass it right to the number you want. My two cents, good luck.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Steve,

I watched your releasers working on the the VT thread. How did you like each. The 25,000 tap lap. model looked like the continues vacuum one. Any complaints. Would you get the same one again if you were doing it over?

Thanks,
Ben

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Steve,

You switching out pans or reversing the flow?

[PATheron]

Steve- Its great that at least you guys did get through everything mostly. Working one little machine that hard it would of been easy to clog it up so bad it wouldn't work anymore. Seems like a guy just has to have at least three posts to single pass very good. Its a tough balancing act because if you spend like money is no object your going to go out of business because the bulk prices are only going to go in one direction but if you don't have enough equipment you just cant make it happen. Scribner- One thing you could think about to try to keep the cost down is being you have a steamaway just figure 12% is going to be your number. That's pretty easy to ro to. You could get like a three or four post machine and although theres down sides to it you could use 270 membranes because they are fast and your not going to go over 12% and you could make quite a lot of concentrate without a lot of ro that way. You need to not go over 300 psi though and youll have to keep them real clean so they keep performing good at that low pressure. Youll have to make sure your filtering the sap good. Good luck. Im always trying to do better with my ro machines too, most everyone is. Theron

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Theron, I think that is what I will try to do. Get a four post unit. From what I understand, with the New Leader 4 post, you can stop the flow of sap going into the membranes and reverse the flow. So if you had raw sap going in to the first two posts, then into the next two, you could stop the flow while the machine is still running and reverse it so the more clogged membranes would get raw sap to "clean" them up a little. This is what gives them such high flow rates I think. This would work pretty good for me if 12% would be good enough. That would maintain high flow rates on big runs. Not sure the $ tag. But I want one.

Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

From what I understand, with the New Leader 4 post, you can stop the flow of sap going into the membranes and reverse the flow

I chatted with Bruce Gillian a bit about the new Leader RO line at the Bascom Open House. Besides reversing the flow, they also apparently use a much larger pressure vessel to provide more space around each membrane and use additional/bigger circulation pumps to keep the flow rates very high. Other than that, I don't know anything about them.

[wiam]

I chatted with Bruce Gillian a bit about the new Leader RO line at the Bascom Open House. Besides reversing the flow, they also apparently use a much larger pressure vessel to provide more space around each membrane and use additional/bigger circulation pumps to keep the flow rates very high. Other than that, I don't know anything about them.

Pretty much what I got out of Randy Gaudette at Goodrich's. Sounded like they got some very good flow rates.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I see $ signs.

[nymapleguy607]

No doubt about the dollar signs. I looked them over at Leaders open house, they look like an RO on steroids. From what I could see it looks like they took a standard sized unit and doubled the pumps. They showed I think a 600gph unit would normally take 45 amp, the new ones rated at 600gph were drawing almost 95amps. All of the test numbers were showing them single passing to at least 20%.

[wiam]

No doubt about the dollar signs. I looked them over at Leaders open house, they look like an RO on steroids. From what I could see it looks like they took a standard sized unit and doubled the pumps. They showed I think a 600gph unit would normally take 45 amp, the new ones rated at 600gph were drawing almost 95amps. All of the test numbers were showing them single passing to at least 20%.

And from what I heard they were keeping flows up even with high concentrate.

[Maplewalnut]

I chatted with Bruce Gillian a bit about the new Leader RO line at the Bascom Open House. Besides reversing the flow, they also apparently use a much larger pressure vessel to provide more space around each membrane and use additional/bigger circulation pumps to keep the flow rates very high. Other than that, I don't know anything about them.

Thanks Dr Tim. Going to be following this one. More/stronger pumps are one variable and larger vessels are another but the third that is still not acknowledeged is membrane pore size and materials of construction. At some point it doesnt matter how much pump you have the membrane becomes the limting factor. The larger vessel will certainly help reduce 'clumping' of sugar molecules which will prematurely foul your membrane and reduce flow but over time you will have still have this take place. Keeping the sap homogenous is the trick for these ROs which is why a recirc pump is a must. Now if some manufacturer would develop an RO with different membranes in series we would have something.

[DrTimPerkins]

Now if some manufacturer would develop an RO with different membranes in series we would have something.

Our industry just isn't big enough to have membranes designed specifically for our purposes. The maple equipment manufacturers don't produce their own membranes, but they could likely put any membrane you wanted (that was commercially available) in the machines via a custom order. Would undoubtedly cost you more, especially if you wanted something that wasn't typical for them.

Membrane fouling is definitely something that is of considerable interest to membrane manufacturers, and a lot of research is ongoing to find ways to limit/reduce fouling. There are certainly some approaches that might help, but it is unlikely there will be any real magic bullets out there to solve the problem in a major way. The approach Leader seems to be taking is to throw considerably more recirculation at the issue, which will definitely improve throughput and reduce fouling to some extent....but there is no way you can eliminate the problem altogether. Good wash/rinse protocols and practices are still going to be the key ways to keep fouling under control and keep throughput high.

[stewardsdairy]

So, I am really looking into an RO to expand taps and save time and firewood. I have an evaporator that will boil about 250 gallons per hour and would like to boil between 8 and 10% concentrate. What size RO would I need to keep up? Will an RO concentrate to 8% from 1.75-2% on a single pass? What is the most economical route to go? What is the lifespan of an RO and is used a good route to take? My wife is very skeptical and I need an inexpensive route to take this step.

[unc23win]

Nothing wrong with used at all (that's what I did) its a good way to get started they might be older but still work. The capacity can very based sap temperature, quality, as well as how often and how well the machine is cleaned. Some people buy used machines then add membranes (that's what I am doing) upgrade the membranes and maybe change out pumps to get more out of it. You can always recirculate if you want higher brix. Many people do that especially if they burn wood.

[ennismaple]

So, I am really looking into an RO to expand taps and save time and firewood. I have an evaporator that will boil about 250 gallons per hour and would like to boil between 8 and 10% concentrate. What size RO would I need to keep up? Will an RO concentrate to 8% from 1.75-2% on a single pass? What is the most economical route to go? What is the lifespan of an RO and is used a good route to take? My wife is very skeptical and I need an inexpensive route to take this step.

My $0.02 worth: A 250GPH RO won't be big enough to feed the evaporator so I'd say you want a 600GPH unit. Our 600GPH unit will typically push about 3.5 GPM of concentrate through to the evaporator feed tank at 7%-8%, which corresponds to a flow of 210 GPH. Our evaporator processes about that exact amount per hour so we typically get enough in the feed tank to give us a buffer (like 150 gallons of concentrate) if the RO needs to be shut down for maintenance for a few minutes.

With your 1100 vacuum taps plus another 550 on gravity and buckets I'd guess a good day for you is 2000 gallons of sap. I'm sure you get much better than that on big days but 2000 would be good for analysis. What would you do on days when you only get 1,000 gallons or less? Boil raw sap or save it for the following day? You'll need a bigger evaporator feed tank to get maybe 250 to 300 gallons of concentrate in front of you before firing up because your evaporator will process 40 gallons more sap per hour than your RO can process.

Once you get the RO you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. With the RO you'll run through 2,000 gallons of sap in 3.5 hours instead of the 8 hour boil with just your Vortex.

[stewardsdairy]

U][/U]
My $0.02 worth: A 250GPH RO won't be big enough to feed the evaporator so I'd say you want a 600GPH unit. Our 600GPH unit will typically push about 3.5 GPM of concentrate through to the evaporator feed tank at 7%-8%, which corresponds to a flow of 210 GPH. Our evaporator processes about that exact amount per hour so we typically get enough in the feed tank to give us a buffer (like 150 gallons of concentrate) if the RO needs to be shut down for maintenance for a few minutes.

With your 1100 vacuum taps plus another 550 on gravity and buckets I'd guess a good day for you is 2000 gallons of sap. I'm sure you get much better than that on big days but 2000 would be good for analysis. What would you do on days when you only get 1,000 gallons or less? Boil raw sap or save it for the following day? You'll need a bigger evaporator feed tank to get maybe 250 to 300 gallons of concentrate in front of you before firing up because your evaporator will process 40 gallons more sap per hour than your RO can process.

Once you get the RO you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. With the RO you'll run through 2,000 gallons of sap in 3.5 hours instead of the 8 hour boil with just your Vortex. I have the ability to add 1000 taps to my vacuum system with minimal expense. Everything is sized to handle it, so I'm looking at a possible 2700 next year. Would a thousand you ro keep up with my evaporator? My feed tank is about 600 gallons.

[ennismaple]

We're tapping almost 4300 taps on a single 600GPH post and that's maxed out - we're adding another post for next year. We had a few days this season where we ran the RO over 14 hours, including some short rinses every 4 hours to keep the performance up.

At 2700 taps I'd say that's ideal for a 600GPH unit. If you get only 1,000 gallons of sap you run the RO for 2 hours while you do other things and the feed tank is filling. You'll have just enough permeate to wash the membrane and a short 1.5 hour boil. If you get 4,000 gallons of sap you start the RO early and re-circulate concentrate back into the sap tank for about 2 hours, then push concentrate up to the feed tank for 2 hours. Start your fire and do a short rinse on the RO membrane and by the time you're at full steam you're concentrating again. You'll have about a 6 hour boil and make close to 100 gallons of syrup in that time.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

My research is done. I've learned a lot, I'm sure i've got a lot to learn still. I've asked as many people and questions as I can, including this forum. What I have concluded is that.

For RO purchases - It seems like the Leader RO is the way of the future. I would guess that in the next two or three years, that each and every other RO manufacturer in the maple industry will be making RO's with larger vessels and recirc pumps.

- If you buy before June 1st, the price is very competitive with the other manufacturers and claims to have better performance.

Releasers - Most sugar makers are partial to a manufacture. I am partial to quality and reliability. In deciphering all the different opinions. I found one I trusted the most. Feel like they told it to me how it was and offered great insight into something I would have otherwise known nothing about.
- BHR Releasers is what I have been sold on. I have a Benard Gilles. What I didn't know is that the company name was sold to Lappiere who of course made the manufacturing a little cheaper and thus the quality. From what I hear, the son and daughter of the original Benard releaser have restarted the business under BHR (probably not news to most, but it was to me). From that I understand, their product has better sensitivity on each release. I'm sold

For Filter press - Seems like too each their own. I found the D & G to be the best priced. Providing the most bang for the buck. Leader is nice, but high on price. Same with H2O. The D&G model will do more syrup per paper change for less money. That is what I was looking for.

Storage Tanks - Seems like there are a lot of good tanks being made these days. For what I was looking for, a large open top 5-8K, the D&G wins. I've priced a lot of tanks, heard some horror stories of tanks busting at the seams when full. The feedback on D&G tank, is that it is well constructed and can take the pressure. Of course while this person was advocating for their tanks, they did say the one they sold had a small leak in it. But two trusted advisors suggested D&G tanks. H20 tanks were also among those I was considering. They have added extra support to prevent the bowing problems some of their large tanks had. So they could be a good choice also I think.

No saying I am right about this stuff. It is what I believe are the best products available for the money.

Ben

[silvermaple]

was wondering what people are looking at for the upcoming season. I would like to get several new pieces this year to allow the operation to expand like I want.

My problem is there is a lot to choose from. Of course every dealer will tell you that their product is better for this or that reason. I am hoping to get some unbiased feedback from everyone on equipment they have tried, and what they are considering to buy. Aswell, leaving money aside, what is the best product for each job and why?

I am looking to find the best options for a large storage tank - I hope to get something in the 4-6,000 gal range. Bigger would work too. Open top ideally.

Best option for Releasers capable of 10,000 taps. Mechanical types that set on top of storage tank and provide continuous vacuum.

Best options for Filter press capable of 10+ barrels per paper change

Best option for 1000 gph RO

These are the things on my wish list. Thanks for any insight.

Ben

I know you didn't specifically ask about vacuum pumps, but I would like to chime in on that incase you need a new one. I was in the market this year for a new or used vacuum pump. Water was an issue for me as I don't have much fresh water and I certainly didn't want to have to haul in cooling water again like last year. I sold my Sihi pump over the summer because I could not get the higher vacuum that I wanted. I searched the country side and looked at oil vacuum pumps. I looked at the busch pump, the flood system, and I didn't see anything I liked. I have a friend with a flood system and the contraption is so big, there is always spilling oil, it looked like the Exxon Valdez in his vacuum shack. I looked at busch and another friend had one. To be honest they were just so expensive. For what you get, I am sure it is quality, but just too much $$$. I was on a budget and I think we all know how that works. I also didn't like how I couldn't find a pump curve for the busch that would tell the story of what my friend was pulling for vacuum when his pump was deadheaded. Either it was a defective pump or the curve was lying.

I went over to those guys at MES. They have the Atlas sealed rotary vane pump. At first I took the brochure and price list and didn't think too much about it. Well crunch time was happening and I needed something fast. I probably procrastinated a little too much and so I called those guys at MES back. They were so confident in their pump. Well I placed the order at 4pm on monday, and I had the pump in my door end of day thursday. I couldn't believe it. CDL has the airtech pump and I heard from a few guys that ordered they were waiting and waiting and waiting- no show on the pump. I coudln't take that risk. Lets just say that I hooked up the pump, and without trying I was at 27". Last year it was all I could do to get 25" - Big smile on my face. I ended up with 28.5+" of vacuum and I know that helped my production. It was so high that I imploded my Lapierre moisture trap end. The clear plastic obviously wasn't built for that level of vacuum or there was a crack there to begin with.

I also needed a constant vacuum releaser. Because I was on a budget I wanted to make fairly new mechanical releaser work in its place. I asked those guys what they suggested. I ended up giving them the releaser, and when it came back it was ready to rock and roll. I was just on their website this morning and they put a picture of the releaser they built me on the front page of their website- kind of cool to see my releaser there.

I have read these forums for a long time and decided it was time to register and post this. The amount of help Dan and Clayton gave me at MES was incredible. I had questions about the pump, about the VFD, about the oil, about servicing the pump, I had RO questions, I had filtering questions. I think a lot of times people only hear about the bad experiences with equipment dealers.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I know you didn't specifically ask about vacuum pumps, but I would like to chime in on that incase you need a new one. I was in the market this year for a new or used vacuum pump. Water was an issue for me as I don't have much fresh water and I certainly didn't want to have to haul in cooling water again like last year. I sold my Sihi pump over the summer because I could not get the higher vacuum that I wanted. I searched the country side and looked at oil vacuum pumps. I looked at the busch pump, the flood system, and I didn't see anything I liked. I have a friend with a flood system and the contraption is so big, there is always spilling oil, it looked like the Exxon Valdez in his vacuum shack. I looked at busch and another friend had one. To be honest they were just so expensive. For what you get, I am sure it is quality, but just too much $$$. I was on a budget and I think we all know how that works. I also didn't like how I couldn't find a pump curve for the busch that would tell the story of what my friend was pulling for vacuum when his pump was deadheaded. Either it was a defective pump or the curve was lying.

I went over to those guys at MES. They have the Atlas sealed rotary vane pump. At first I took the brochure and price list and didn't think too much about it. Well crunch time was happening and I needed something fast. I probably procrastinated a little too much and so I called those guys at MES back. They were so confident in their pump. Well I placed the order at 4pm on monday, and I had the pump in my door end of day thursday. I couldn't believe it. CDL has the airtech pump and I heard from a few guys that ordered they were waiting and waiting and waiting- no show on the pump. I coudln't take that risk. Lets just say that I hooked up the pump, and without trying I was at 27". Last year it was all I could do to get 25" - Big smile on my face. I ended up with 28.5+" of vacuum and I know that helped my production. It was so high that I imploded my Lapierre moisture trap end. The clear plastic obviously wasn't built for that level of vacuum or there was a crack there to begin with.



That is some good information. I have seen MES when someone else on the forum mentioned them. I checked out their RO's but it appears they build mostly larger units.

The reason I wasn't looking for a new Vac was that I picked up a 3 HP Busch last summer. While it worked great, I may speak with MES when it comes time to expand the vac. The busch performed excellent, except I wasn't able to get above 26" deadheaded at the releaser. It could have been leaks in the releaser that wouldn't allow it to get up to 27 or even better 28"

So I will check in with MES before I pick up another Busch. I likely will go with the same sized Busch, but I will keep an open mind. Thanks for sharing your feedback. It really sounds like those guys at MES are very helpful and good at what they do.

Ben

[Dave Y]

you probably had leaks. I bought a Busch pump and had no trouble getting to27hg. as far as imploding your moisture trap i would say there was a defect in the trap. I have two on mine and have had no trouble with them as they are built for ultimate vacuum.

[DrTimPerkins]

The busch performed excellent, except I wasn't able to get above 26" deadheaded at the releaser. It could have been leaks in the releaser that wouldn't allow it to get up to 27 or even better 28"

The max vacuum on that particular pump is 28.5". Of course that is at sea level under standard pressure and temperature. It's been a few years since I've wandered around Duxbury, but I don't recall any of it being that low (or flat) :D , so your max vacuum will be reduced right off the bat due to elevation. At 1,000 ft elevation, your achievable vacuum is reduced by ~3.4%, so your max vacuum would be about 1" less than the maximum called for in the pump specs, so around 27.5" (on a standard pressure/temperature day). The other thing to consider is your vacuum gauge. Most maple industry gauges are +/ 2%, some are +/- 3%, so it could be off by 0.6-0.9" Hg (in either direction) right out of the box.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

You are correct Dr. Tim, Duxbury is not very flat at all. I think it was more operator error, rather than equipment malfunction with my busch pump. The vac gauge was old, on an old releaser. Plus my sugar house is at about 1200'. I decided to get a BHR releaser to replace the one I outgrew. Next year I can put the pump to the true test.

Dr. Tim, I know you run several Busch pumps, are they in series, or all going to separate releasers? I ask because I plan to plumb in another 3 hp busch next to the one I have and both pumps will feed the same releaser. I was wondering how you handled that at PMRC? The idea was given to me to put both pumps into a steel barrel, as a balance tank, then out to the releaser from the barrel? Putting in a moisture trap between the pump and barrel of course. Sounds like it will work good, I was wondering if there is a better way.

Thanks,
Ben

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

A standard steel barrel will implode under high vacuum. You will need a thick-wall structure for that application.

[DrTimPerkins]

You are correct Dr. Tim, Duxbury is not very flat at all.

Dr. Tim, I know you run several Busch pumps, are they in series, or all going to separate releasers? I ask because I plan to plumb in another 3 hp busch next to the one I have and both pumps will feed the same releaser. I was wondering how you handled that at PMRC?

Having climbed Camels Hump 3-4x per week for about 8 yrs (in a previous research life http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/perkins2.html ) I know with certainty that Duxbury is NOT flat.

Our current two Busch pumps are in separate places, so plumbing them together in that way is not physically possible or desireable. However we are adding a second pump to one of the research sites (as well as replacing two LR pumps with one Busch pump in our research studies). The key thing if you want to run them in series is that the two pumps and the VFD settings be identical. In our case, we have three major studies going on in that area, so we will have one pump service one of those studies (12 releasers) and the other service the other two studies (15 releasers + 30 vacuum chambers). We will, however, put a jumper pipe between the two of them that will have the valve normally closed. If one pump were to go down for some reason, we could open the valve to have one pump service all the studies simultaneously. The advantage of plumbing it separately is that it is easier to tell when one area vs the other has issues (leaks) if they are plumbed separately (or for us, if we ever wanted to have the study areas have different vacuum levels).

Whether you want to operate the pumps in parallel or series depends upon whether you wish to increase vacuum or CFM. A good discussion of this is found at http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-parallel-serial-d_636.html

Finally, as Jeremy said.....using a barrel as a balancer will not work. It will crush in or implode. You'll need a larger chamber made to handle high vacuum for that.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks Dr. Tim. The link you shared provides a good diagram of pumps in both series and Parallel. After looking at each, I think Parallel is the way to go for me. With shut offs at each pump, so that if one goes down, the other can keep the system running. I wonder what could be used as a balance tank. A rugged Steel drum? or does it need to be beefier?

The point you made about the VFD's needing to be programmed identically got me thinking. Can you use one VFD to control two identical pumps if they are run in parallel?

Thanks,
Ben

[AdirondackSap]

Really pleased with my brand new CDl 600 gph RO very fast. Sucked the sap up quick very impressed with it and easy to run. I believe The sap Is drawn through the membrane like a tornado. They claim its the fastest unit on the market and i believe it.

[DrTimPerkins]

I wonder what could be used as a balance tank. A rugged Steel drum? or does it need to be beefier?

Doubtful. You'd probably want something more along the lines of a large vacuum chamber.


Can you use one VFD to control two identical pumps if they are run in parallel?

Perhaps, but it would obviously have to be a VFD capable of handing the electrical requirements of both pumps.

[500592]

Yes it is possible to run multiple motors on a single vfd and it is done actually done quite often.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I wanted to report back on the equipment I purchased for 2015. I started this thread interested in reviews and opinions, so I think I should offer what I learned from what I purchased.

I choose a BHR releaser because I was told by a trusted adviser that they were more sensitive on release and required less vac usage at release. I have yet to contact the company, but have informed my distributor that a critical mistake was made when drilling the hole for the float rod. The float rod angle was not vertical (90 degrees), which is causing one chamber to release a minute or two after the other one and covering the float with sap completely before moving the rod. I will request a new unit, or a fix. More to come.

I also purchased a new filter press from D&G and a SS tank. The tank is fine other than a little buckling around some seams. I can live with that. But the Filter press had a problem. I made syrup, add DE to it, and went to start this new piece of equipment that was clean and pretty and new and it went CLICK. Breaker tripped on the circuit. Hmm. Ok. Reset. try again, click. Again, the breaker pops. So I thought my circuit was not right. I ran a new isolated circuit w. 20A breaker to a single outlet and tried again. Click. pop, smoke. Yes smoke. Yeah, I made a call. Was not nice. And the problem was solved with new electric motor within 24 hours with wiring that was done better than in the factory. Sadly I had to reheat 50 gal of syrup to be filtered, but that is how it goes. In the end, D&G came through with fast and excellent service when it counted. Of course the machine did smoke. So I could have had a better experience I guess. May shop that machine around if had to do over.

I also purchased an RO as it was the piece missing from my operation. I went with a Leader X machine, basic model 2 post. It was pretty, but once I had it home it was a nightmare. Imagine a piece of equipment that is new to you (I am new to RO) that has no manual and is missing it's labels. I received a quick start guide. 4 pages of how the valves (that are not labeled) are to be set for each operation. No indication of wash PH. Some things said to refer to manual. Which was like an insult considering there was no manual. On my third use of the machine I had a problem getting it to run a rise cycle. But with a quick call to Leader, a solution of closing the V-18 to create the required pressure solved the problem. I was pleased with the service from leader.

Over all, I suggest to shop around more than I did. I am happy with the equipment I have, but think there may be even better options out there. At the very least, make sure you are given a walk through on how to best operate the equipment and insist on a manual of sorts to provide a reference for the most common questions.

Ben

[Sunday Rock Maple]

there was no manual.

Manuals are out now, your dealer should be able to get you one.

[TheMapleMoose]

I wanted to report back on the equipment I purchased for 2015. I started this thread interested in reviews and opinions, so I think I should offer what I learned from what I purchased.

I choose a BHR releaser because I was told by a trusted adviser that they were more sensitive on release and required less vac usage at release. I have yet to contact the company, but have informed my distributor that a critical mistake was made when drilling the hole for the float rod. The float rod angle was not vertical (90 degrees), which is causing one chamber to release a minute or two after the other one and covering the float with sap completely before moving the rod. I will request a new unit, or a fix. More to come.

I also purchased a new filter press from D&G and a SS tank. The tank is fine other than a little buckling around some seams. I can live with that. But the Filter press had a problem. I made syrup, add DE to it, and went to start this new piece of equipment that was clean and pretty and new and it went CLICK. Breaker tripped on the circuit. Hmm. Ok. Reset. try again, click. Again, the breaker pops. So I thought my circuit was not right. I ran a new isolated circuit w. 20A breaker to a single outlet and tried again. Click. pop, smoke. Yes smoke. Yeah, I made a call. Was not nice. And the problem was solved with new electric motor within 24 hours with wiring that was done better than in the factory. Sadly I had to reheat 50 gal of syrup to be filtered, but that is how it goes. In the end, D&G came through with fast and excellent service when it counted. Of course the machine did smoke. So I could have had a better experience I guess. May shop that machine around if had to do over.

I also purchased an RO as it was the piece missing from my operation. I went with a Leader X machine, basic model 2 post. It was pretty, but once I had it home it was a nightmare. Imagine a piece of equipment that is new to you (I am new to RO) that has no manual and is missing it's labels. I received a quick start guide. 4 pages of how the valves (that are not labeled) are to be set for each operation. No indication of wash PH. Some things said to refer to manual. Which was like an insult considering there was no manual. On my third use of the machine I had a problem getting it to run a rise cycle. But with a quick call to Leader, a solution of closing the V-18 to create the required pressure solved the problem. I was pleased with the service from leader.

Over all, I suggest to shop around more than I did. I am happy with the equipment I have, but think there may be even better options out there. At the very least, make sure you are given a walk through on how to best operate the equipment and insist on a manual of sorts to provide a reference for the most common questions.

Ben

If it's the small version of that BHR double mechanical - you are correct- there IS more to come. Planning on giving mine some adjustment with a 10 pound sledge.

[sapman]

I wanted to report back on the equipment I purchased for 2015. I started this thread interested in reviews and opinions, so I think I should offer what I learned from what I purchased.


I also purchased a new filter press from D&G and a SS tank. The tank is fine other than a little buckling around some seams. I can live with that. But the Filter press had a problem. I made syrup, add DE to it, and went to start this new piece of equipment that was clean and pretty and new and it went CLICK. Breaker tripped on the circuit. Hmm. Ok. Reset. try again, click. Again, the breaker pops. So I thought my circuit was not right. I ran a new isolated circuit w. 20A breaker to a single outlet and tried again. Click. pop, smoke. Yes smoke. Yeah, I made a call. Was not nice. And the problem was solved with new electric motor within 24 hours with wiring that was done better than in the factory. Sadly I had to reheat 50 gal of syrup to be filtered, but that is how it goes. In the end, D&G came through with fast and excellent service when it counted. Of course the machine did smoke. So I could have had a better experience I guess. May shop that machine around if had to do over.

Ben

I bought a new CDL 10" press a couple years ago. Same experience on turning on switch. Click. Took back wire cover plate off motor, and one lead was crushed between plate and frame. Shortened and restripped and all was fine. May have been that way from manufacturer or Grainger or wherever. But obviously was never tested before being shipped.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

The BHR is a double horizontal, the big boy. But the mistake they made when drilling the float rod hole is a pretty big one. I think for the price, it should work properly and I will ask for a replacement. In the mean time, I need to keep a close eye on it, as it has failed once. It's a good thing I listened to Dr. Tim's advice on the electric moisture trap. The releaser failed, sap filled the moisture trap and shut down the pump. I think I have it working now, but I am still nervous to walk away from it.

Sapman, my filter press issue was the same as yours. Pinched lead wire by the motor plate. I started to tear mine apart to fix it, but ran into trouble when I couldn't find the right allen wrench to take pully's off. My fit on the phone with D&G got them to send a mechanic with a new motor. I put my tools down and they were there to fix it within 18 hours.

I was just at my dealer. Still no manuals for the X machine, And NO labels for the levers. Likely by June they will be in.

Ben