where to start?

[cjmiller272]

Im considering installing tubing the next season or 2, i understand the concept of a tubing system, but i dont know all the terms, parts and rules. Reading the namp handbook doesnt really clear up much. Are there any dvds or in depth books on installing tubing available? Thanks

[asknupp]

I learned a lot from YouTube.

[BreezyHill]

Unfortunately there are several different views on installing tubing.

Send me an email to bhffeed@msn.com and I will send back the Steve Childs, Cornell University data and calculator sheet on sizing you mainline. This explains a lot that you will need to know about vacuum.

For gravity you need to remember a few things.
Sap runs down hill well, so don't have sags in the lines. Take extra care to have them tight....really tight.

Terms: Mainline or mains are the 1/2", 3/4", 1, 1.5, 2" plastic lines that bring the sap to the collection point. They come in black, thaws faster than, Blue...blue is cooler in the temp the sap comes out in the heat of the day. This is important on the late season runs when it is 50-70 degrees and you don't want the sap to smell as bad as your teenagers sports shoes. I am not kidding!

Laterals are often smaller but can be the same size as the main and collect lateral lines and bring them to the mains.

5/16 tubing...often used as laterals is the same tubing that goes onto the spout, spile, or tap that is placed and set into the tree.

Saddles are used to hook individual 5/16 laterals to a mainline thru a drilled hole.

Drops are the section of 5/16 tubing that connects the tee or y to the spout.

Seasonal spout is one that is changed annually to increase sap production thru cleanliness of the tap hole in the tree.

Now you are at the tricky part. If you put 5 tappers in a room you will have five ways to do the end of a lateral line.
Personnally I like the end hook. Placed so that the section that goes around the tree and back onto the lateral is on top of the lateral. This gives ampal location for drops to be yed into the lateral line and sap runs down hill so a y acts like a venture or on ramp to a highway and the sap is propelled toward the mainline thru the lateral.

One of the other guys at Cornell has a Book out that is really good and somebody else will chime in with the name ...Sugar makers companion comes to mind.

Remember it is usually cheaper to run a mains than to run multiple laterals to a mains 150' feet down the grade. I have a section that the mains are only 75' apart across a slope. It is far cheaper to run the second 1" mains 1500' long than to have run 60 -70 laterals an extra 75'. Then factor in the extra lines to keep the 5-8 tap count on a lateral to achieve best vacuum transfer.

I am a 4-H leader so remember the 4-H Motto...learn by doing. While reading from a book is great there is no better way than to visit a friend or fellow tapper and help them for a bit and learn from them. Most are friendly happy guys and gals that will be happy to help. Only a few are grumps and need another beer.

If you have a question this is the place to get answers. and the cost is minimal.

I have only been doing this since I was 5 back in 1971. We live on a family farm and dad had just started a new occupation as a industrial arts teacher after leaving the Surge Vacuum/ Milk Equip. business.

Ben

[cjmiller272]

Thats a part im unsure of is the laterals and their ends. If you use the y type and loop around a tree how do u make sure things are going to be tight enough. And then dealing with sags on laterals or mainline. If i pull hard enough wont the tubing stretch and then sag?

[lpakiz]

To get the lateral tight, you string out the lateral from the mainline to the last tree. Fasten it to the end tree with your Y connector and then follow the tube back to the mainline, weaving among the selected trees. (3-5 trees per lateral if on vacuum)
Stretch as necessary as you go back. At the mainline, pull the mainline towards you as you pull on the lateral to gain any available slack, then cut the lateral from the roll, and let it relax while you install the "hooked connector". (This is the fitting that connects the lateral tubing to the mainline wire). When you have the hooked connecter installed, pull the lateral and mainline together and hook the lateral to the wire. Now you have the tension you want. Keep this angle as close to 90 degrees as you can. Cut in the drop lines and install the saddles later. Other folks do it differently, but this method worked well for me.
If you ever get thru Central Wisconsin, I could give you a tour.

[unc23win]

With laterals the main things to watch for is maintaining that 90' angle to the mainline and getting the mainline good and tight so it does not get pulled and cause slack. You can also use a slide fitting on either end or both ends of the lateral, they allow you to take up the slack without cutting the line. I have done it just about every way there is and I have not found that one Superior #1 go to method. Its probably the most talked about aspect of installing tubing.

[BreezyHill]

To keep the lateral tight is up to many options.

I have done them all but have discovered an awesome product called rapid tie. This product is great. It works on old tees, y, and connectors with a nail hole or there is a new connector that is designed to attach to it.

What I do is flag the trees I will be tapping along the mainline. I run high vac so I am looking to only have 7-12 taps on a lateral; because I use y connectors and not tees any more I can run a few more on a lat than the 5-10 and still get great vacuum transfer. Then I take the tubing spinner To the land hang it on the mains, and start walking the path the lateral will go. When I get to the last tree I go around that tree and snap the end hook on top of the line. When the end hook is on top you will have slop back to the mains so sap doesn't pool if you position the line correctly around the tree. Then I go back toward the mains keeping the line taught. When I get back to the mains I use my 2 hand tool to cut and set in a connector around 2-3 feet from the mains, with the line pulled supper tight. The connector is then attached to the first hole of the rapid tie(RT) and then the RT is secured to the mains. I then cut a section of tubing that will allow the lateral to have a nice sweeping curve and set a saddle in the mains and attach the lateral. I set the saddle so it is facing away from the direction the lateral is so there is no tension on the saddle for a better seal on the mains.

Below is a pic of using a tree on a step brook bank to attach to the lateral to and then to the saddle on the mains. In this case it was to hard to attach to the mains and the tree was available and easier to use.
There are fork connectors97109711

There are fork connectors if you are not looking to go to vacuum. These allow 4 tubing connections into a mains at one location. They work well for gravity but don't transfer vacuum well enough for me.

[GeneralStark]

The rapistrap is a good product for many uses.

7-12 taps/lateral on high vac. for good vac. transfer? Strive for five and less than 100ft. is the rule for good vac. transfer.

Where did you come up with 7-12?

[BreezyHill]

7-12 if you are using y and not the old tees; with the new higher flow tee you have much larger ID so you can increase your taps count on the too. I have a cfm meter and did the test on the lines using the y and not the tee. When you wash a line with a y little to no solution goes the wrong way.

Think of a y on mains and the affect that a saddle has on a flow of sap on a mains. It was quite simple to figure.

Next season install a tee on a drop on a two tap tree on any face other than due south and the second drop put a y on the south face. South should have greater flow and check the tree during the season...you will notice that the y has less sap in it than the tee.

Had several guys try it and they all remarked on what a difference.

The times are a changing...tough to keep up with the curve.

[GeneralStark]

I'm a little confused by your first statement. So are you saying that Y's have better flow than the new style "max flow" T's or better than the "old style" T?

I think I get your point but just observing how much sap is in the drop isn't much evidence to support your hypothesis.

The other issue I see is unless you have a very dense stand of maple, 7-12 taps/lateral means long laterals. Using 5/16 tubing, regardless of the type of fitting you use at the drop, you are still dealing with the same line loss challenge of the small diameter tubing.

[unc23win]

I think I get your point but just observing how much sap is in the drop isn't much evidence to support your hypothesis.

The other issue I see is unless you have a very dense stand of maple, 7-12 taps/lateral means long laterals. Using 5/16 tubing, regardless of the type of fitting you use at the drop, you are still dealing with the same line loss challenge of the small diameter tubing.

Not only that but if the woods was more dense it makes even more sense to run less taps per lateral and run more main lines. For me when I am running new mainline I am doing 3 taps per lateral. I was doing 5-7 and I have some that I may leave like that for now, but once the trees grow or others around them grow and the number increases I will be adding saddles. Also I am thinking about trying the Ts with one side plugged with those the sap can only go one way and they are not any more work as I will pre assemble drops just like I do now.

[BreezyHill]

Yes y has a far superior transfer setup.
Let me explain for you.

We all understand the advantage of a SS y over the old plastic Y...better transfer due to the size of the orifice. Back when first started in this industry we used tees on main lines. Times change and people learn better methods. This is the same for a old style vs the max flow connections.

For those not familiar a max flow has an enlarged Inside Diameter for better transfer rates.

Now think about a stop sign and the easy of getting your smart car into the flow of traffic at rush hour...not to easy.

So lets take the car to an on ramp and try to get into the flow of traffic...much easier!

This is why you will notice, upon observing that a y will have less, backed up sap in the drop than a tee. The sap is at an angle that it can be more easily pulled into the laterals flow than sap at a tee, plus the point of connections is larger.

Think of a venture...simple system of having a product under force and speed moving thru a tube...at a y intersection a second product is picked up. The speed of the first product is not lost yet the second product is pulled into the flow. This actually increase the flow with no noticeable affect on the flow characteristics of the main tube's product.

Next season or it can be duplicated now by using just straight water, view what happens at a saddle to the flow of the main line. Don't just check one check several.

You will notice that the flow in the main is disrupted by the inclusion of the saddles flow. This is most evident on flatter sloped mains. It just simple physics. The main is moving in one direction and the lateral is moving in a different direction. The backup at the saddle is caused by the sap entering the flow of the mains, causing a slow down or change in the flow dynamics of the main.

Now think of a mains that is left with sags in it. The vac transfer past the sag is greatly reduced due to the pool of sap in the line. So your more diligent producer gets those lines tight in an effort to reduce pooling of sap; and increase vac at the tap hole.

The Y does this in the lateral...the drop that is 2-4 inches of backup will transfer less efficiently than the drop of 8 inches of backup.

As are most discoveries this was much by accident. I ran out of tees and had to put a few ys in a lateral two seasons ago. When checking for leaks was when I found the tree with one y one tee. The tee was much fuller and I was thinking it was the position of the taps. Then I counted the drips entering the drop...they were nearly the same with the y ahead by 5 in a minute. I first thought it was the affect of the south west face vs south east on the tee. So the next morning was a great run so I visited the tree again. In the am the y was ahead by 5 dpm. Mid day it was about the same. Peak run at 1pm it was up by 8 dpm. And as the song says: "Its just a drop in the bucket...til the bucket fills up".

Are we talking a huge difference, not really, but if it gets more sap in the tank for a reasonable exspense then I am all in. Now factor in that I am a line washer and a y is even more advantageous as the velocity of the cleaning solution and air will better scrub the lateral lines and drops.

Like having you mains spaced 100-150' across the slope. It seems to many to be overkill. But when I ran the numbers it was a cost savings. Then when you figure the amount of increase in vac transfer on a 50' lateral vs a 100' lateral its a no brainer. If you are not a believer in short laterals as Jared eludes then try blowing thru 50' and then try 100'. A believer will be born.

This is farming thru and thru. One farmer plants at 32,000 plants per acre and another at 34,000 Does it cost an added pound of seed corn...yes; but it yields an added 3 ton of silage.

Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

[unc23win]

t...til the bucket fills up".amount of increase in vac transfer on a 50' lateral vs a 100' lateral its a no brainer. If you are not a believer in short laterals as Jared eludes then try blowing thru 50' and then try 100'. A believer will be born.

I never said I run long laterals I run more mainline and more laterals as in short laterals. Meaning that in a dense woods it makes even more sense to run more laterals and have less taps per lateral. If your mainlines are closer then its obvious that your laterals would be shorter. The less taps per lateral and the shorter the lateral the better transfer of vacuum that's been proven.

As far as Y verse T as you said the difference might be small and observing a few trees doesn't really say much to prove otherwise. Using the T with one side plugged will keep sap from going the wrong way. My theory (only theory) with that is that the vacuum will then be sucking on an end cap basically, which I would think would help make more efficient use of the available CFMs. IMO I don't see why anyone would put more than 5-7 taps on a lateral other than trying to obtain natural vacuum. Also from what I understand from reading PMRC reports there is no research that proves any method of washing lines is better than not washing them period.

[GeneralStark]

Flow of traffic at rush hour? Car to an on ramp? We are talking about running laterals here. Once again, I get your point that Y's may have better flow dynamics that T's but I still don't see how you will get 7-12 taps on a short lateral. I too am in the more mainline, short lateral camp and most of my laterals are 50' or less and 5 or less taps. I have a pretty dense woods in need of thinning with over 100 taps per care in areas and there is now way I can get 7-12 taps on a 50' or less lateral.

[BreezyHill]

Sorry, I thought you would understand the analogy. Most people that drive trucks or cars get it.


My woods is quite dense and it is easy for me to get more than 7-12 on a lateral. I have to run a 1" main just to get what is within 25 feet of my bushes edge. My farm has been in the family for the last 111 years. Even before we started tapping in 1971, Maples were not harvested. I have four in front of the house that date back to before the house was built in 1843. One died and the rings were counted. Back in 1980...that was the largest and was 235 rings. The field edges and woods have been pretty much unchanged for the last 100 plus years. One bush is the old potato field that was abandoned in the 1930's after the drought years. Now it has covered with 24" maples and on two sides has 36-48" maples. Underneath is a lime stone ridge and the potato field was where the sheep were fed in the fall and winter until it was lambing time. So the fertility is great.

You can visit your USDA office and often see the old aerial maps of the farms fields and find what the fields were use designated as. In this area sheep was huge and the winter feeding spots grow great crops still. Especially maples as long as you control the honey suckle. Cut and chip every few years is our program. 10 acres to do this summer.

I am not in to thinning anything that is tapping size. We get a lot of wind and thinning would allow the wind into the bush further and have a negative affect on sap flows. Its Breezy Hill for a reason ya know. lol





Actually I am considering using the sapping havest to thin a few spots that is full of 1-2" sapplings.

Another bush next door is full of 2-3 per tree taps spaced about 25-35 feet apart. So it is easy in this area to get to the max on a lateral in under 100'.

[GeneralStark]

Ok so still using ancient tapping guidelines of 2-3 taps/tree you could probably achieve 7-12 on a 100' lateral. If using modern guidelines for high vac. it would be pretty tough to do so however. I guess we are talking apples and oranges.

[BreezyHill]

So you are one of those that puts one tap in a tree of any size?

[GeneralStark]

9-18" - 1 tap, greater than 18" - 2 taps if it has a healthy, large crown. I do tap trees smaller than 9" if it is a cull.

I strongly believe in silviculture.

[BreezyHill]

Our operation has been following the guidelines of the times since we started tapping in 1971. I also strongly believe in sustainable agricultural practices, for all sections of agriculture. Our bushes are health and growing very well. In the years that our area suffered extreme stress tap numbers were either reduced or one year of defoliation we didn't tap at all.
Currently we do nothing below 10" after 18" is 2 and after 30 is three. We have a lot of massive trees. They have always done well with our practices.

I am considering thinning a few areas that have saplings that will not reach the canopy. My thinning practice is to remove other species for firewood for home or evaporator. Ashes from the evap are taken back to the bush and some of the wood furnace ashes are also taken back to the bush where they are spread where trees were harvested.

So ancient ways...I guess so; but they have served this farm well under vacuum and RO for 33 years. And yes that original RO is still going strong with new xle membranes and another pair to be added for next season.

In time, most people learn, that much of the equipment of the past was over designed and still of great use in todays agriculture. Just look at the vacuum pumps of the 1950s and 1960's...They can hit 28"+ and are still going, and the ROs of the 1980's, operated at 500 psi take on the membranes of today and do a fine job.

The equipment designers of our industry are forced to take and industry into the future and those of us that are still in the business must help those looking to continue into the future by sharing our years of past experience and knowledge for the betterment of the industry.