Couple of design questions...

[NTBugtraq]

So I had a temporary sugarhouse across the driveway from my mainline feed, which meant a sump and raised line to go over the driveway. This summer I want to build a new sugar house. The idea would be to use a wall of my new house as one wall of the shack. I'd appreciate thoughts on a couple of questions.


The high side of the shed roof would be the house wall. That means steam will rise up towards the house. I thought I could put a louvre at the high point, opening away from the house. The house is OSB, then Tyvek, then Vinyl siding. I figured I would remove the vinyl, what would you replace it with? (something to prevent the steam getting below the tyvek.)
The best pitch I can come up with is only 1.5"/12". I figured I would have a ledger board anchored to the house, and brackets for the rafters. The rafter span is 14'. I can size the rafters appropriately, but how do you feel about such a shallow roof slope? I had nearly 3' of snow on my roof this year.
Similar to the steam question, I plan on stacking wood against the house wall. What would you put on the house wall to help prevent issues with bugs or anything else that might arise from wood being stored against the tyvek?
What is the least slope that could be efficient at allowing me to collect condensate? or to prevent that condensate from dripping mid-span down to the floor (or worse, the pan)?
I had frozen stored sap in my uninsulated shack this year, how do you prevent your storage sap from freezing (other than just a light bulb)...iows, does insulating an area of the shack work?

Cheers,
Russ

[Michael Greer]

Take off the vinyl and cover the wall with ply-wood. It will resist the abuse that comes with stacking wood, and protect the Tyvek. The roof pitch is gonna be a problem. Low pitch roofs won't ever shed the snow, and may even get snow dumped from the other roof. The sugarhouse will be cold almost all winter, which means there will be no melting to get rid of the snow load. The back-up of snow will act like a giant ice-dam, and probably cause leakage problems in the house. You'd have to frame it strong enough to hold five or six feet of snow....and then it will rain. Low pitch roofs leak...sooner or later.
Build your new sugarhouse away from the house. That way, when you burn it down, you'll still have a place to sleep.

[wiam]

Build your new sugarhouse away from the house. That way, when you burn it down, you'll still have a place to sleep.

That would be my opinion also. But at the vey least ask your ins. agent so when you burn it down you can get a new place to sleep

[wiam]

Not trying to be a jerk but I had sparks get in my woodshed last year and caught the wood and then the roof structure before I noticed. I have seen this in many other sugarhouses also. And definitely a no go if you do not have metal roof on house.

[NTBugtraq]

Haha...already have cement board in the design to prevent burning down the house, but I love bombastic suggestions.

I didn't have any more snow at my existing eave line than I had anywhere else on the ground, so clearly the snow was not cascading from my house roof, maybe if I had a steel roof that might happen, as it is, my gutters removed all of the snow off my house roof. My attic is R60, and my walls R50, so melt isn't my concern. I was asking more about the load over 14'. But there is a fact, at any time if I was truly concerned about the snow load, I could just light a fire in the arch...right? More than I can do in my greenhouse, which I have to rake.

I am, however, interested in your "ice-dam" idea...where did you see that happening? At the peak (where I had planed to put flashing between the house and the shack roof), or elsewhere?

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Not trying to be a jerk but I had sparks get in my woodshed last year and caught the wood and then the roof structure before I noticed. I have seen this in many other sugarhouses also.

That's a lot of burned down sugar shacks...not saying it isn't so, but might you be exaggerating?

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

I guess I should say I have designed and built my last 2 houses...and have no intentions of letting anything burn down. I have ensured enough fire protection where necessary. But in my use of my arch this year, no spark went anywhere other than no more than 2' in front of the arch door, on the ground. If I was burning really wet wood I could see how a spark might go a little further, but even with an in-house fireplace I only need an 18" skirt. I have no wood storage within 4' of the door of the arch, and even then its behind a wall...so, let's just put that issue aside for the sake of these questions. I do thank you for all being good building inspectors, but even my building code doesn't call for what you're suggesting...and likely neither does yours.

Cheers,
Russ

[wiam]

That's a lot of burned down sugar shacks...not saying it isn't so, but might you be exaggerating?

Cheers,
Russ

I did not say any burned down, but have seen and heard of many that a stray spark from the stack got into the wood pile. There are no inspectors around here. Just know what I have seen. I would not want the chance of fire or the steam in my house.

[PerryW]

2x10 rafters 14 feet long 24" o.c. should handle the snow load.


the best way to avoid ice in your holding tanks is turn the sap into maple syrup before it freezes.:lol:

[Pibster]

The roof pitch will be to low. You should run the rafters in the other direction and valley into your existing roof. Go with at least a 4/12 pitch. I wouldn't be attaching a sugar shack to the house though. Too many fires.

[NTBugtraq]

I did not say any burned down, but have seen and heard of many that a stray spark from the stack got into the wood pile.

Wiam, you mean a spark that came out of the top of the chimney?


the best way to avoid ice in your holding tanks is turn the sap into maple syrup before it freezes.:lol:

Lolz Perry, too true. I have been in the habit of shutting the arch down when my stored sap gets low, ensuring there is enough sap for the arch to cool down before burning the sap. That's always left me with a few gallons of sap in the storage tanks, which in turn freezes overnight. Hopefully I will get more experienced and then, can boil off all remaining sap from a day.


The roof pitch will be to low. You should run the rafters in the other direction and valley into your existing roof. Go with at least a 4/12 pitch. I wouldn't be attaching a sugar shack to the house though. Too many fires.

Well, the house is 2 stories so I can't valley into the existing roof.

But I would really like to understand all the concern about fires. I have a fireplace inside the house, so what is the risk of another in the shack? My temporary shack I used this year had cardboard as a floor (since it was built on ice), and despite this and embers dropping out of the arch door, it never caught fire. The new shack will have a concrete floor and concrete board on the wall between the arch and the wood storage, and the wood storage will have a metal roof...so what am I missing?

Cheers,
Russ

[wiam]

If you have a blower there will be sparks coming out the stack. Maybe not many with air over fire but it only takes one.

[happy thoughts]

Russ, just wondering why you want the shack as a house addition. For reasons already mentioned, smoke, steam, fire potential, I would not want a shack sharing a wall with my house. A fireplace and arch are not burned in the same manner nor are the stack temps equal. And without seeing your plans but working from your description, I wonder if you'll have the chimney clearances required in your provincial building codes or will end up with a very tall stack that will be difficult to support or stabilize And beyond that, how will such an addition be taxed? Just thinking you might be better off building what could be considered and taxed as an Ag building instead of being included as part of your residence. Just food for thought. :)

[NTBugtraq]

While I do appreciate all of the concerns, they have been expressed a lot, so if you can't answer any of my original questions I might as well just close the thread.

FWIW, my house's footings are 12" above ground water, and it is built on the lowest ground on my property. We created a mound for the ground floor to be at, allowing melt to run off in all directions...the only lower point on my property fills with melt water to within 20' of the house. Further, I have mainline at or near the ground floor level. This means any shack I build, if not attached or near the house, will have to use an external transfer tank to supply the shack with sap. It would have to be at least partially buried, with some form of heating.

Given I designed this house, I am very aware of what the possibilities are for adding to it, complying with building codes, and ensuring sufficient fire protection. Finally, I intend on finishing the ground floor basement area (its a raised bungalow) of the house as a business facility, in the hopes of having more of the property declared, and taxed, as agro.

But again, I'd prefer to stick to the questions I originally asked...thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Russ

[wiam]

While I do appreciate all of the concerns, they have been expressed a lot, so if you can't answer any of my original questions I might as well just close the thread.

FWIW, my house's footings are 12" above ground water, and it is built on the lowest ground on my property. We created a mound for the ground floor to be at, allowing melt to run off in all directions...the only lower point on my property fills with melt water to within 20' of the house. Further, I have mainline at or near the ground floor level. This means any shack I build, if not attached or near the house, will have to use an external transfer tank to supply the shack with sap. It would have to be at least partially buried, with some form of heating.

Given I designed this house, I am very aware of what the possibilities are for adding to it, complying with building codes, and ensuring sufficient fire protection. Finally, I intend on finishing the ground floor basement area (its a raised bungalow) of the house as a business facility, in the hopes of having more of the property declared, and taxed, as agro.

But again, I'd prefer to stick to the questions I originally asked...thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Russ

Rubber roof underlay then plywood on the wall should deal with steam/wood. Roof is too flat. I make sure my tank is empty every night.

[RC Maple]

NT - You don't really seem to want answers to your questions - only confirmation that your idea will work. You say you "have no intentions of letting anything burn down." I don't think anyone standing next to an ash pile where their house used to be thought they did either. What is being politely said is that the idea needs to be "reconsidered". After all, he who heeds counsel is wise. Good luck with your project.

Cheers

[NTBugtraq]

NT - You don't really seem to want answers to your questions - only confirmation that your idea will work. You say you "have no intentions of letting anything burn down." I don't think anyone standing next to an ash pile where their house used to be thought they did either. What is being politely said is that the idea needs to be "reconsidered". After all, he who heeds counsel is wise. Good luck with your project.

RC Maple. Your response initially made me close the thread, but then I realized that isn't the most appropriate response.

Firstly, I do really want to get answers to my questions, it just seems that some really don't want to answer them because they believe an attached sugar house is a bad idea. So the insistent ones amongst us aren't me...they're the people who think attaching a sugar house to a home is a bad idea. Ok, I get that some/many may think its a very bad idea...outta their fear of a fire, but the facts don't support the paranoia. A search on Google of sugar shacks burning down support me; one burned down because of a microwave, another because of propane, and others because it was too difficult for firefighters to get to them or get sufficient water to save them. Other stories abound about shacks that had full shingled roofs that were then subjected to a blower in the arch, leading to much higher temperatures where the stack met the roof (which, btw, had no adequate clearance between the stack and combustibles.)

Most of these structures were built without any consideration of building codes. They were not near fire suppressant support (e.g. they were in the bush off a decent road that fire fighters could use), and not designed to any building codes (e.g. shingles touching the stack).

Not one person who has posted in this thread stating building a sugar shack attached to a house was a bad idea has presented any actual reason...just espoused fear. That is not how buildings are designed today. Fear is overcome by engineering, and as much as some of you think it can't be done, it can be overcome...

There is absolutely nothing in the Ontario Building Code that prevents an arch from being attached to a home. Go figure...you think its a no-brainer, but the building code thinks its something that can be handled if dealt with appropriately. OMG, who woulda thought that? When did you last appease your local Building Inspector? I've done it twice with radical builds.

There are required clearances, materials such as concrete board that should be between combustible and fire source, and behaviors that should be maintained...all result in the fire risk being extremely low. But maybe if all you do is drink while you're firing you don't trust yourself...ok, but lets let that be different from design ideas.


I can apply a water proofing between the house and the shack that prevents steam from permeating the house...no brainer
I can use concrete board sufficiently to ensure that combustibles and combustion are separated
I can ensure sufficient combustion within the arch to prevent significant embers from leaving the stack, and/or cover combustibles so such embers don't start a fire

If I build the building of my choice, it houses not only the arch, but cold storage for vegetables, and chickens...but you won't understand that unless you see my design, but that wasn't my question in my OP...

But please, keep posting "OMG, why don't you get how incredibly ridiculous that idea is"...without offer any reason why other than; "I'm ridiculously afraid of fire". Maybe someone will actually say something meaningful.

I don't want support of my idea, I'd really like answers to my original questions. If you can't answer any of my questions without saying; "but in my opinion you're nuts", you somehow think yourself liable...so don't answer any, ok?

Cheers,
Russ

[lpakiz]

Russ, does your insurance agent support your position?

[happy thoughts]

But please, keep posting "OMG, why don't you get how incredibly ridiculous that idea is"...without offer any reason why other than; "I'm ridiculously afraid of fire". Maybe someone will actually say something meaningful.

And where exactly did someone say that? Might you be exaggerating? Everyone that has replied to you has done so politely, in good faith, and with your interests in mind and the best ofintentions. Not one has called your ideas ridiculous, yet you have no problem calling their responses as such. What's up with that?

[RC Maple]

NT - As I said - Good luck with your project.

[heus]

Here's why I think it's a really bad idea. A wood fired evaporator is not like a wood stove. The only thing that separates the raging heat from your home is a thin piece of galvanized or stainless steel and some blanket and bricks. It is more like a rocket or a forge than a fireplace. If you live by yourself no problem. If you have a family living there then don't do it. You may be mad that people are reacting negatively to your idea, but maybe they are just concerned about your welfare?

[NTBugtraq]

Here's why I think it's a really bad idea. A wood fired evaporator is not like a wood stove. The only thing that separates the raging heat from your home is a thin piece of galvanized or stainless steel and some blanket and bricks. It is more like a rocket or a forge than a fireplace. If you live by yourself no problem. If you have a family living there then don't do it. You may be mad that people are reacting negatively to your idea, but maybe they are just concerned about your welfare?

Certainly some evaporators are very different than fireplaces, but my 18 x 5' arch, which cannot have a blower attached (manufacturer says door would melt if it did), really isn't very different than a free-standing fireplace...and is definitely not like a rocket or a forge. Sure, its housing is SS and not some form of iron, but there's little difference in terms of how much heat is being conducted. The issue is clearance and/or surface protection. How far away from combustibles will I have it, and/or what will I cover the combustibles with to prevent combustion.

While I can't contact my insurer for pricing until I have a design, their first question about the arch will be whether or not it meets or exceeds the OBC (Ontario Building Code) and CSA B365. Before I can get a permit, I have to have a design. I am very aware of the requirements of the OBC and CSA B365 with respect to my planned project. A previous home had a solid fuel burning appliance in an attached out-building, and the additional cost to my insurance premium was $25/year. I doubt there will be much difference with this project.

As for a family, I live alone.

Again, I appreciate the concern, but I have done my best to demonstrate I am aware of the issues that lead to that concern and unless I can satisfy those requirements, I won't proceed.

Cheers,
Russ

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

NT I'm not sure why you asked the question? Others have given you answers and you keep saying why your doing it the way you are. If you already made up your mind then just build it and post pictures when your done so we can see it. But please don't ask a question then get pissed and close the thread when you don't like the answers.

Scott


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NTBugtraq]

NT I'm not sure why you asked the question? Others have given you answers and you keep saying why your doing it the way you are. If you already made up your mind then just build it and post pictures when your done so we can see it. But please don't ask a question then get pissed and close the thread when you don't like the answers.

The only problem is I can't seem to get answers to my original questions. I never asked if it was a good idea to build a sugar shack attached to a house. So I will restate the original questions then;


I'd appreciate thoughts on a couple of questions.


The high side of the shed roof would be the house wall. That means steam will rise up towards the house. I thought I could put a louvre at the high point, opening away from the house. The house is OSB, then Tyvek, then Vinyl siding. I figured I would remove the vinyl, what would you replace it with? (something to prevent the steam getting below the tyvek.)
The best pitch I can come up with is only 1.5"/12". I figured I would have a ledger board anchored to the house, and brackets for the rafters. The rafter span is 14'. I can size the rafters appropriately, but how do you feel about such a shallow roof slope? I had nearly 3' of snow on my roof this year.
Similar to the steam question, I plan on stacking wood against the house wall. What would you put on the house wall to help prevent issues with bugs or anything else that might arise from wood being stored against the tyvek?
What is the least slope that could be efficient at allowing me to collect condensate? or to prevent that condensate from dripping mid-span down to the floor (or worse, the pan)?
I had frozen stored sap in my uninsulated shack this year, how do you prevent your storage sap from freezing (other than just a light bulb)...iows, does insulating an area of the shack work?

I have had a good answer to #5, and somewhat of an answer to #2 (enough that I don’t really need any more answers).

Cheers,
Russ

[BnSmaple]

As for the steam issues put hoods on the pans with steam stacks

[NTBugtraq]

As for the steam issues put hoods on the pans with steam stacks

Will they also let me collect condensate?

Cheers,
Russ

[gmcooper]

NT
I run our families construction business and here are the best answers I can give you to your questions.
1."The high side of the shed roof would be the house wall. That means steam will rise up towards the house. I thought I could put a louvre at the high point, opening away from the house. The house is OSB, then Tyvek, then Vinyl siding. I figured I would remove the vinyl, what would you replace it with? (something to prevent the steam getting below the tyvek.)"

The louver will vent some steam but not very much. They really do not allow enough air flow and create enough draft. Steam hood best option to keep steam to a reasonable level.
OSB does not handle moisture well at all despite what any salesman will tell you. I would suggest fiber cement in 4'x 8' panels and seal the joints with silicone.

2.The best pitch I can come up with is only 1.5"/12". I figured I would have a ledger board anchored to the house, and brackets for the rafters. The rafter span is 14'. I can size the rafters appropriately, but how do you feel about such a shallow roof slope? I had nearly 3' of snow on my roof this year.

That pitch is low as you know. I would use 5/8" or 3/4" cdx plywood over your rafters then Rubber membrane .060 . would be the best solution however with an evaporator and the possibility and likelihood that there will be sparks coming out of the stack I would put the membrane on and cover that with metal roofing.

3.Similar to the steam question, I plan on stacking wood against the house wall. What would you put on the house wall to help prevent issues with bugs or anything else that might arise from wood being stored against the tyvek?

Same as number 1 for the wall fiber cement panels and Caulk all the joints and seams.

4.What is the least slope that could be efficient at allowing me to collect condensate? or to prevent that condensate from dripping mid-span down to the floor (or worse, the pan)?

Install a smooth nonmetallic ceiling to prevent condensate from dripping. Foam insulation will eliminate much of the condensation. Again steam hood best bet to prevent as much as possible.

5.I had frozen stored sap in my uninsulated shack this year, how do you prevent your storage sap from freezing (other than just a light bulb)...iows, does insulating an area of the shack work?

I do not know of a sugarhouse with a heated sap storage area. However you could easily make an enclosure from 1" or 2" foam insulation for the sides and top of your tank. I suppose if it was going to be extremely cold a light bulb inside the enclosure might give you the freeze protection you are looking for.

Hope that answers your questions. All of the posters above that suggested building a sugarhouse attached to any home is not a good idea are trying to point out the obvious that It is a really bad idea to that. I do not know how you boil on your evaporator but myself and everyone else I know and have seen, have the fire cranking as hot as possible to boil as fast as possible. That means the fire box is way hotter than any wood stove. Many evaporators typically have stack temps 7-800 degrees and up.

As for sugarhouses that burn I do not know where you checked but a common cause is sparks from the stack, sparks coming back out of the arch doors when loading wood and framing burning from stack heat. A Sugarhouse in Canton, Maine burned two years in a row about 6-8 years ago. I understood it was the roof framing getting too hot.

If you actually tell your insurance company you are going to build a sugarhouse attached to your home I doubt they will agree to provide you with any coverage.

Best of luck with your project.

[KevinS]

It sounds to me like you want to collect the condensate from the inside of the roof. ( it will not be potable but fine for watering gardens and flushing)
I would bet more than even money that with the pitch you are talking about. most of it will never get to the bottom of the slope.
IF it will be a two story structure why are you so dead set on a lean to roof? Windows in the upper story?
You can get ice dams on a shed roof connected to a wall. just from sunlight melting more where the snow is protected from the wind in some conditions ( I have seen it several times and was happy to be paid to repair the water damage on one)
We even called it ahead of time on a house that was going up across the street from one we were building.
So with throwing the heat of evap on the underside, with the heat rising and collecting at that point, even though it is vented.. the roof is going to be colder out at the eve of the lean to.. melting less snow than at ledger.
Just my opine...
happy building to you!
cheers

[NTBugtraq]

NT
I run our families construction business and here are the best answers I can give you to your questions.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer each question as they were.

I have since modified the design, significantly increasing the size to make the construction effort more productive. The sugar shack will no longer be attached to the house, but 6' away, and will now become 3 "buildings" with interconnected roofs.



The arch room; with gabled roof, sap storage, bottling counter and arch...4 walled structure on deck blocks with patio stone floor
Chicken coop; gabled roof, roosts and nests...4 walled structure with floor on deck blocks
Cold storage; essentially a large sealed cabinet on deck blocks
Wood storage (for arch and main house) between the arch room on one side, and the coop/cold storage on the other.

This combination of spaces ends up covering ~16.5' x 32', not unlike how a carport would be built.

As far as the high stack temps problems, I'm very aware of them. I can't exceed the stack temps of my house fireplace with my arch, so duplicating the design will be sufficient. The current design for the stack pass-through includes concrete board, stand-offs, and more than "safe" spacing of the framing. Also, my stack has a cap so embers aren't going very far that way. I'm more interested in efficiency than speed when burning...so I've been looking into the possibilities of a catalytic converter.

Also, as you and others have pointed out, a steam hood will be on my list of things to get, although it does become less important with the new design.


OSB does not handle moisture well at all despite what any salesman will tell you.

Haha, too true, many a funny but sad story there.


I do not know of a sugarhouse with a heated sap storage area.

Yeah, no plans on insulating the shack.


However you could easily make an enclosure from 1" or 2" foam insulation for the sides and top of your tank. I suppose if it was going to be extremely cold a light bulb inside the enclosure might give you the freeze protection you are looking for.

That's what I was thinking of.


I do not know how you boil on your evaporator but myself and everyone else I know and have seen, have the fire cranking as hot as possible to boil as fast as possible. That means the fire box is way hotter than any wood stove. Many evaporators typically have stack temps 7-800 degrees and up.

Well, my stack temps have gotten as high as 500, which is about as high as my main house fireplace stack temps. Apart from opening the flue, there's really nothing I can do to get the temps higher, which is the same as in the house. I know what many others do, but my arch can't handle that (manufacturer says the arch framing will melt if a blower was added). But that's fine with me, I'm not in a rush.


If you actually tell your insurance company you are going to build a sugarhouse attached to your home I doubt they will agree to provide you with any coverage.

Well, I just got off the phone with my agent. My question was; "does the idea of having a building, a sugar shack, where I'd burn wood to boil sap raise any alarms?" She immediately responded with; "as long as its in a separate building, we'd just note it on your policy, there wouldn't be any cost for this." I pressed, "but what it was in a room that was attached to the main house?" She's agreed to take the question up with their most senior agent, and if necessary contact the insurance company. She was actually more talkative about me getting extended liability for people coming into the shack...;-]

So, we'll see. But again, thanks very much for taking the time to respond...and you too KevinS.

Cheers,
Russ