Did we miss it?

[vermontkyle]

It's Jan 7th-40 degrees outside, nothing frozen, no sign of freezing-town meeting day is less than 60 days away. I am spending an absurd amount of time in the expanded sugar house and expanded sugar woods. The neighbors are teasing that with the warm weather I should be tapping. Debated hanging a bucket just for the hell of it then thought better.
My question is-did we miss the run? Is this the year of no sap? What does this weather mean?
Nothing to do but sit at the computer and debate these things.
What does everybody think?

[Sugarmaker]

Vermontkyle,
It will come in good time. And it will be over when its done. The time in between is when you need to worry.
Sugarmaker

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

It's Jan. 8th......even though i got a little itchy to tap a little bit ago, there is still PLENTY of time for the weather to straighten out and there be a season. Right now I can't say how much or how long of one...BUT it WILL come!! (and if it were me, I'd be out getting things ready and not spending a whole lot of time on the computer, so you're ready when mother nature is!)

[Daren]

Mother nature has a way of evening things out. We are setting up for a brutally cold February. I can feel it in these 40 year old bones for sure. I'm even holding onto hope for a few snowmobile rides in the meantime. Wish for it and it will come.

[oneoldsap]

Daren: If you want to trade those 40 year old bones I got some 57 year old ones you can have and I'll throw in some cash. Sugaring will be right on schedule. Yes Feb. is going to be cold and snowless.

[Daren]

old sap...please tell me you had a couple of aches back at 40......if not lie to me...as for the cold...boy has it arrived now....should be setting up nicely for a great run after town meeting! Dont sweat the small stuff...right? thinks will come when they should.

[Pete33Vt]

Well Daren What do you think now? Its Jan 30the and it -11. Its not been above frezzing for a while. Looks like things are shaping up to be a good year. Now we just need a slow warm up!!!

[powerdub]

I am going to stick my neck out yet again and say I think global warming is a bunch of SH....ahhh....crap. I talked to an old timer (he is really pushing 100 years old) and he said back in the day (1920's or so) they had trends like this. I am not going to get into the whole environMENTAL thing but I don't think sugaring is in any danger of going extinct. Some guys will tap in December and January but they could have in select years long gone. No one really had the desire back then. Operations were not like they are now. My grandfather would roll over in his grave if he saw the vacuum system I use, heck, sometimes I laugh at the guy that does things out of the ordinary but a few years later, everyone is diong it. Be pateint, sugaring will come when sugaring usually comes. And that is my, well, nickles worth.

[802maple]

I couldn't agree more with you Scott some old sugarmaker friends of mine said the same thing about 1945-46-47 and if you look at the record temperatures nearly half of them are in that time period. So there are atleast 2 of us fools that believe that sugaring will come sooner or later

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Per CNN tonight, by 2100 there may not be any more sugar maples in New England. Global warming.

Either way as I have mentioned before, I watch the weather channel nearly every morning before work and the show the record highs and lows and it is amazing how many record highs were set in the from 1913 to 1920 and some times 70 degrees in Jan. Bet they were real worried.

I do agree we are polluting our atmosphere way too much and I guess the good thing that will come out of this is it will make people more conscience.

[802maple]

I agree to that we should do what we can possibly do but lets not legislate people or business out of business, which is the way alot of the actions that the government wants to do will certainly do.

[powerdub]

I agree also, Brandon, that we are polluting the atmosphere. However I think the destruction of the rain forrest has more to do with our extreme weather patterns than anything else. If the government wanted to really do something about it they would. Seeing as thier retirements rely on oil futures now and not tobacco, well lets just say they will only go so far. If CO2 is such a big greenhouse gas and the biggest threat, lets get rid of a couple hundred million people, isn't that what we breathe out on every breath? Those rain forrests have been referred to as the lungs of the world. Why are we not doing more to protect them so the world can better deal with the CO2? I think they would be more accurate if they called it regional warming.

[Russell Lampron]

Just listened to a talk about global warming saturday at the NH Maple Producers Association meeting. If we don't do anything to cut down on the amount of CO2 we are producing, maple sugaring could very well be in danger. The climate in New England will be like Atlanta Georgia by the turn of the century. They don't tap many trees in Georgia. It won't affect us so much as we will all be dead by then. The people affected will be our grandchildren and their children. Study up on it guys and do what you can to cut down on CO2 emissions.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

Don't blame it all on the removal of the rain forest. Just a very few (2) years ago President Bush relaxed(lower) the standards for all coal burning plants in the mid west. Allowing them to spew out more toxins. The "trickle down effect" so its called.
It is said that the rain forest has all the components for any medicine for any disease on earth.

[powerdub]

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying the rain forrest cutting is solely to blame any more than you are saying Bush is solely to blame. I do believe we are polluting our atmosphere but I don't believe in the global warming hype. There is just too much evidence against it if you can find it. The media sure won't tell you but it is out there and it is every bit as factual as the stuff they are trying to sell. Even the pro global warming experts have said this warm December is nothing out of the ordinary and can't be pinned on warming. One only has to look at the thermometer as of late and see the pattern has changed and it is going to get colder next week.

[Fred Henderson]

The F'ing media only report what has some adventure to it. Just like I Iraq you never hear of the good that the US is doing only the bad and bloody things. I like to have a few media people here in the last few days minus 28 one morning. The poor fools would not know gobal warming if it came up and bit them on the butt. I got to stop because I will get on a rant.

[mountainvan]

Just got done watching Al Gores movie an incovenient truth. If you get a chance watch it. It may change your mind about global warming. This Jan. warm weather was el nino, not global warming, that according to NOAA.

[powerdub]

Go for it, I hate to rant alone. I guess thats why I got going on this. I should know better but I don't.

[Justin Turco]

As far as the trees are concerned. It's the bugs I'm worried about. But for this year. WE WILL BE SUGARING.

[802maple]

All you have to do is follow the money and you will see where this global warming nonsense is coming from. No global warming and the pro global warming people are out of a job, so as long as they can keep out there the money keeps coming. If this were not true why would the AMS want to take weather people's certification from them that didn't get on board with the others about climate change.

I read some interesting stuff last year about some of these same scientist back in the late 70"s that wanted to put some black ash on the antartica because the glaciers were growing to fast and cause some of the glacial rivers to freeze solid. If we didn't do something about it we would most certainly go into another ice age as the world was cooling faster than normal. We must have done it and went over board because we are now warming to fast.

We need to cut down on pollution that is a no brainer, but until Al Roker can get tomorrow right consistantly, I will then listen to him about 50 years from now.

[Russell Lampron]

We won't know for sure if this global warming thing is for real or not until sometime in the future. We should treat it as if it is real and do everyhting we can to prevent it. I for one want my grandchildren to enjoy maple sugaring like I do.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Fred Henderson]

First steps first= Don't do sugaring this year as it will help on all the pollutants and heat going into the atmosphere. Gotta start somewhere right?? Yea right as if that isn't going to happen=Russell not sugarin'....Probably when hell freezes over..

We're definitely not going to see the demise in our lifetime or for several generations to come/maybe in about 5-10,000 years they will see this happen if the trend continues???

I don't think that your signature is very appropriate. There is a lot of good professional here on the Internet whether its here or elsewhere. Many dealers troll sites such as this one for new product ideas.

[802maple]

I agree Russell that we should do what we can possibly do to stop any excess pollution, believe me, I want to see sugaring here for the future also.

Some of the things that the congress and state legislatures want to do are going to put us out of business much quicker than the enviroment is going to kill our beloved maples. The emission controls that are being thrown around aren't going to stop with just automobiles and I don't see us boiling with solar power or hydrogen powered evaporators.

There are certainly ways for us to be less of a stress on the enviroment in our own operations but it doesn't come without a expense. When I read a lot of the posts on here trying save a few cents to keep in business, it will put them out of business to spend thousands for the guys with a 25 to 500 taps and that is the majority on here. This just my opinion

[Fred Henderson]

Just like the small farmer milking 40 cows. You don't see that any more. So will us small maple producers. At least I will know that I enjoy the time when I did do it.

[Daren]

Hey MountainVan....did the movie Inconvienent truth disclose the fact that they "inconvieniently" omitted any data that did not support their position. There is another movie/documentary that directly deals with each claim made in the Gore movie with well documented studies that did not support several of their claims or presented very stong evidence that would support other natural causes for the changes that have been occuring in the environment. We have to remember that the earth has gone through several Ice Ages and thaws during its existance, and to think that it will not repeat itself again would be foolish. Are we in some way contributing through our "consumptions"...probably....but do we have the ability to prevent it....most definately not....The world will keep turning...with us or without us. Fred H. ...you are right on with the reporting of the press...never hear anything that does not insite panic and pandimonium.

[Russell Lampron]

Jerry,(802maple)

I too am one of those small producers. It was a hard decision to make when I purchased my RO machine. When I weighed in all of the factors it turned out to be the best way to go. It helps with the global warming thing because I am not burning as much wood as I did before cutting down on the pollution from my chain saws and smoke from my evaporator.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Russell Lampron]

Well said Kevin!

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Cowabunga Dude

[Fred Henderson]

Maple Hill,
I can live with that. This is off topic but last winter I needed a sander for my 2000' + driveway. I did not want to sling sand and salt into the woods. I went online looking for a drop sander and found one for about 8K ha ha. I set my mine to work and built one that hangs on the tail gate of my RTV and is powered by a 12 volt B&S starter motor. I hang on the tailgate, put in the proper amount of sand and control it with a switch on the dash. Once down and back and I am done.Back into the heated garage and hose it off,take it off. If I were a young man I would patent it. But like you that design I will keep to myself.

[802maple]

Russell you are most certainly cutting back on pollution just like we are with our 2 R.O's. But what I am getting at mostly are the guys on here with 50 taps that can't really afford a R.O. or efficeint evaporator. If some of the emission standards go through, what are they going to do?

There are only 2 woodfired arches that could possibly meet the criteria and maybe a couple oilfired evaporators ,maybe more. The 2 woodfired arch's that might make it in a 2x 6 cost nearly as much as your R.O. Ten to fifteen years from now when the earth is cooling down ,we will still have the same standards and these guys will still be stuck. Just like Fred said all there will be is the large sugarmakers that could justify the purchases.

These scientist are reacting on the day and not the total picture.

Kevin you are right we give out some info but we hold back just enough to keep the rest thinking.

Lets do what we can and mother nature will do what she does

[markcasper]

Fred, you took the words right out of my mouth! As for global warming-it only got to -7 for a HIGH temp today. It is brutal! No doubt pollution is out of hand and especially in China. Money and greed is the number one cause of this problem. Most every large corporation in this world has one objective and thats to make the shareholders $$$$. And thats above all else until someone sues them for something and thats hard to do to a multinational corporation.

I was hearing on a radio show yesterday that the majority of the climate change people do not believe in God. Since they don't believe in God, they then believe in anything and some make global warming their "god". It has basically turned into a religion, just the same as the PETA and animal rights people.

How come noone ever mentions all of the scientists that disagree with global warming?

Noone ever mentions all of the potential money that is to be made on global warming either.

Mark

[802maple]

The money trail has got mentioned but not by the elite media. I mentioned it today. There was a story on it the other day on Netscape from a meteoroligist that also talked about the possibility of having his and others certification's stripped if they didn't get on board as it might effect funding of their research. I will see if I can find this. It was of his opinion that there was atleast as many scientist that were against the theory of global warming caused by humans as there were for it.

[powerdub]

What really sticks in my craw is all the reg's they put on diesel's and no one looks at all that diesel fuel being burned to heat, say big buildings.

Last month I burned around 50 gallons of diesel in my pick up. I burned 75 gallons in my house. My workplace burned 15,000. It is the same fricken fuel but for some reason I have to pay a huge penalty for driving an oil burner pickup. If you add up all the houses and buisenesess that use #2 during the winter, they will pale in camparison to the ammount we use as diesel pick up owners.

If you are going to regulate one fossil fuel source you have to do them all and I think that is where 802Maple is coming from.

A few years back I watched a documentary on some WWII planes that went down up in the arctic. Some 40 or 50 years later they are digging them out 200 feet below the surface. At some point all that ice has to melt and make its way back into the cycle.

You can't tell me if the age of the world is some 40 million years old or whatever the number is this week, they are able to make a pattern after only 200 years, if that, of weather data. I agree with 802. This is all a money thing. My buddy in Germany gets 70 MPG with his diesel car. Those beggars that make autos can get a lot more than that if they wanted but they will only go so far. We want to make sure the pokets stay lined of those that pull the strings.

I think our wood fired evaps don't hold a candle to half of one of the forrest fires they have out west but certian trees depend on those fires to release thier seed so that very species can survive. Go figure!

[Sugarmaker]

I wasn't going to post this till I read the last post from Power DUB, (my 2 cents)

Guess I am not helping on the global warming issue. I just went and threw another couple chunks of split hickory in the wood stove so my 'but' will be warm while it is a wind chill of about -30 outside. ( I am saving the $2.53 propane for an emergency) Hoping this weather may help save a glacier another couple days so a polar bear has a place to live too.;) I agree we all pump a lot of not so good stuff into the air each day of the year. Good news is if you are tapping a maple you probably aren't going to go right out and cut it down. So we save a few trees. Maybe help the environment a little while making some sweet product from the maples. We only spend a short amount of time on this here earth. Like anything good it can be ruined. I don't have the answers. I predict they will be debating global warming long after we are gone. I think it would be interesting to know what the world temp was 200 years ago? Our weather technology is very sophisticated today as opposed to then and I am not sure we are not in a information overload mode.

Regards,
Chris Casbohm

[Fred Henderson]

Power dub
What the penalty in VT for driving a diesel pickup? I have one also and there is no penalty in NY. As a matter of fact when I have my yearly safety inspection done my sticker is marked differently because in NY it is considered a not polluting vechile.

[powerdub]

Not sure you noticed yet but the fuel you are buying is ultra low sulfur. Those that bought 2007 vehicles paid more for them so our atmosphere can be cleaner. What did they do to 2007 oil burners that are in heater? Nothing. I think the last I saw it added $1000.00 to the cost of a new pick up. (Diesel) Not to mention the cost diesel used to be thirtycents lower than gas because it cost less to process diesel. Now it is more. WTH!

[Daren]

I drive a Diesel also...I get better mpg with by 3/4 ton than I did with my V6 ranger. I am still trying to figure why the price is so high though...less refined fuel...less processing time....less cost to produce? I would think so. Maybe we should go club a few baby seals and use seal oil to heat our homes and power our vehicles. If we had a few seal farms...it would be a non-poluting renewable resource. We have to have something to replace what we use now.

When I was little, I remember hearing that heating with wood...the great eco friendly renewable resource was going to save us all...now they want me to stop using that as well? MAKE UP MY MIND!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[maplehound]

Daren,
Why worry about seal oil when soy bean or corn does just as well. Last time I was in Indiana i visited with my wifes cousin, he makes his own bio deisel. His truck smells like french fries when it is running, gets better miliage and says it is easier on the engine.

[802maple]

They aren't that far from regulating our home heating fuels, our evaporators or other vehicles. They just can't seem to make enough regulations, it isn't a good day unless they go to bed making it harder on someone without using good common sense. Then again if you elect a lawyer that is what you get and that is where the money trail ends.

[Russell Lampron]

Lets not forget that the Idiots in the white house are big oil men. They aren't going to enact any legislation that is going to slow down the money flow into their pockets. Why do you think they were so slow to react when the gas prices soared after hurricane Katrina went through.

I work as a flat rate mechanic and when the gas prices hovered around $3 a gallon everyone stopped spending money on their cars. The net result was that I emptied my bank account to keep food on the table while the oil men gladly recorded record profits.

Maybe they aren't idiots, maybe I am because I drill for maple sap while they drill for oil.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

Russell just put a extension on that tapper and go at it. LOL

[mountainvan]

My neighbor has a deisel volkswagen, he says it get 50 mpg, and has over 150,000 on it. I could never get a german car, my father would disown me. He was on the run from the gestapo in Holland in wwII. Daren, what's the movie? You did'nt say. I'll watch it if I know what it is. I always try to keep an open mind.

[maplecrest]

you guys aLL KNOW THE BEST BTU"S ARE IN CORN. but building a corn burning evap. could be a challenge. the time i am going to tap is same every year, presidents weekend start. watch the worm moon this year it is the first weekend of march. i always get a good run on the full of the worm moon. jeff

[Russell Lampron]

I have never heard of a worm moon before. What is it?

Russ

[royalmaple]

Its when you go picking crawlers, opps doubt any will be poking up begining or march....

:-)

I think it is the close cousin warm moon he meant.

[Russell Lampron]

I googled it after asking the question. I think the "full sap moon" is going to be the more appropriate name for it this year. I think the worms will have a hard time coming up through the ice and snow.

Russ

[Daren]

Mountain....I have not seen either movie yet...just that they are out there. I did not want to see the Gore movie until I could rent both together. I like balance when someone tells me it is science. As for some reading materials....look into studies by Richard Lindzen from MIT and if you want a list of others that have some problems with the assumptions made by the Gore camp...try this site. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_global_warming_consens us

All in all, there is not much in the way of dissent when it comes to the global warming trend, the dissent comes when they try to blame it all on human pollution. I tend to agree that it is way too early to tell if the trend will continue, speed up, slow down, stay constant..etc. All I know is that the planet will always be in transition from one state to another...when that no longer happens....we'll be in deep doo doo.

[Sugarmaker]

Its that deep "doo doo" part that keeps me up at night.:D :D
Sugarmaker

[802maple]

While you are watching Al Gores movie see if he explains how he actually lives. He certainly explains that he has education in climatalogy ,which he must have been very busy considering at the same time he was inventing the internet. You know for someone that wants us to have peddle cars and live in tents he doesn't seem to want to give up his 4 homes of which the one in Tennesee is over 10,000 square feet and uses no alternative energy at all, along with all of his other homes. He fly's around the world in his private jet because the commercial lines that are used by us are not safe enough. I think he is doing a good job of leading by example,anybody agree. One could say that he is finally coming around and he is going to right his wrongs, but it doesn't take much research to find where he has felt this way since the seventies, atleast in his written word

I also have one other question seeing that the earth has warmed and cooled on it's own for millions of years. What is the optinum temperature that the earth should be at anyway? I have researched this and can't find a answer someone please lead me to right place to find this.

[Dave Y]

802,
The anwser to your ? depends alot on where you are standing.

[Russell Lampron]

802maple,

I see that if Al Gore were running for public office again that he wouldn't get your vote. He won't get mine either.

Russ

[802maple]

Russell

As far as I concerned. We would go without a President before I would vote for that man. I would vote for everybody else running ,but not him. Anybody that thinks global warming is the worst thing that can happen to this world has not read his record. So yes you are right.

Jerry

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

He is just exposing more of the views of the liberals. As soon as they got control last month, all they could think of was raising taxes. I paid 32k in taxes when Clinton was president and in 2005, I paid less than 1K in taxes.

Like raising minimum wage, all that is going to do is hurt the older people on fixed income and the middle class because everything will go up to match the wage increase and ultimately it won't help the minimum wage workers one bit. OH, they all forget to mention that 80% of minimum wage workers are under 24.

[802maple]

couldn't have said it better myself

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I should say that the 32,000 in taxes was in one year and I was self employed. Either way, I guess I can enjoy the 1,000 per year child tax credit for the next four years as the liberals definitely won't extend it and it will get worse in Nov 2008.

[802maple]

maybe you could adopt a bunch of 14 year olds and ride it out for the next 4 years. Of course by the time they get done apologizing to Bin Laden and appoint him Secretary of Defense it won't make any difference anyway

[802maple]

We need a injection of sugaring bad to sweeten up our attitude