Will my electric handle my vacuum pump?

[danno]

First of all, thanks to all who have been responding to my posts. I've been looking for a website like this for the past 5 years, and now that I've found it I feel like a kid in a candy store.

OK, I have a lead on a Delaval 75 with a 2 hp. elec and a Delaval 76 with a 3 horse elec. If I run 220, 250 feet from the house on a 50 amp breaker can I run either of these pumps without throwing the breaker or dimming the rest of the house? I've got 2 - 220's in the house that we no longer use, but I would have to run the power about 250 feet to the vacuum pump. One was for an electric range (50 amp) and one for an electric water heater (30 am).

Thanks

[Fred Henderson]

The 50 amp breaker would be border line unless you put in a magnetic starter. Going that distance you should use #4 alu wire(cheaper than copper). What size(amps) service entance does your house have? What you need to look at is the starting and running current for each motor. There may still be a data plate on the motor.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Well I'm putting in power to the sugarhouse this year, and the local electric supply store told me that 1/0 cable will carry 100 amps 210 feet. anything farther than that i'd have to go to 4/0 cable. I know this isn't exactly the info you're looking for, but maybe it's something you can comapre to.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[danno]

Figured someone would suggest putting the pump closer to the electrical source and running vacuum to the releaser - and that is an option I'm considering ....

I've already got about 1500 feet of mainline before I hit my taps and did not want to add another couple hundred feet, but I guess it would be easier/cheaper to run 1 inch for vacuum to extractor then bringing electric out to extractor.

[Russell Lampron]

I have my vacuum pump set up at the sugarhouse and my releaser is 900 feet away down over the hill. This set up works great. I would put the vacuum pump close to house and run a pipe to the releaser.

Russ

[danno]

OK - if I put the pump closer to the house, what size pipe should I be running from the pump to the releaser? I will have 1 inch dry and 1 inch wet running from the releaser to the taps.

I assume I want something bigger than 1 inch from pump to the releaser so I don't bottleneck the vacuum? I like the idea of the water filter humidity trap, but probably won't go that route either as home water filters probably have 3/4 inch intake/outake which would result in the same vacuum restrictor.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Parker]

I would definatly keep the pump as close to the elec. outlet as possibel and run your vacuum line to the releaser,,just some additional info. from my set up in Hill,,,,,
I have a 3hp 220 electeric moter that runs a Master 40cfm pump head,,,,the pump has a 6 foot cord that goes into a magnetic starter (which is contorled by a bulk tank cooling control-turns the pump on at 30 deg and off at 28deg) the starter and contorl run 120 volts,,when the starter turns on it energizes the 220 outlet for the pump,,,at 16inches of mercury the moter is drawing 20amps,,I have a 25 amp breaker on the 220 outlet,,,,hope this is helpful

[802maple]

Air has restriction loss just like water 3/4 inch is way to small if you want to get efficient vacuum to the woods beyond the releaser. Case in point was our own experience with a 1 1/2 dry line going to our woods. It is about 5000 ft to our woods from the sudgarhouse and with a 7.5 hp sihi pump we could only get 18 inches of vacuum to the woods using 1 1/2 we switched to 2 inch and got 23 with the same pump. Those that make good vacuum to the woods do not bottleneck their systems. I recomend 2 inch it may seem like over kill to some, but if you have a manual releaser the whole key to making them work properly and with minimal vacuum loss is to have plenty of vacuum storage to make the mechanism work as fast and smoothly as possible. They will work with less vacuum but efficency is the answer to a good system

[Fred Henderson]

Even on a dairy farm when vac is used for the milking equipment it is recommended to use a 4" dia line. If I using a vac system that is the size that I would use. The bigger dia also acts as a reservoir.

[danno]

Wow, that's some big pipe. Don't think I could afford 2 inch up into my bush.

I did see that the chart suggesting tube size has changed - now recommedning 3/4 tube for 250 taps or less and 1 inch for 500 taps or less.

Please give me your suggestions for tube size for my smaller operation. The operation I am putting together looks like this -

Delaval 75 (2 hp elec) or 76 (3 hp elec) powered next to house. Single, vertical mechanical releaser 225 feet from pump. 800 feet of mainline from releaser before I hit first taps. Right now 300 taps, but expanding to about 750 along another 1000 feet of mainline. Good grade the whole way (between 4 and 10%).

Right now running a 3/4 inch mainline for my current 300 . My plan was to run a 1 inch wet, 1 inch dry from releaser to existing 3/4 main line (more taps will be added to the 1 inch wet in the future). What size pipe would you run from the pump to releaser? Also, do you think the one inch wet/ one inch dry is enough?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[danno]

Maple Hill (Kevin?) - yup, you got it right for how I forsee my set up and thanks for your suggestions. I am leaning towards putting the pump by the house and running tube to the releaser rather than running power to the releaser.

I'm at 300 taps now, and will max out under 1000 in a year or two, all on the same lines/vacuum.

Dry line question - I have seen some recommend that the dry line should be bigger than the wet. Is this so?, Is there a reason for it?

Also, I assume I want my pipe from pump to releaser to be at least the same size if not larger than wet/dry lines leaving releaser. I was told the single/vertical/mechanical Lampierre I'm looing at only has a 1 1/4 vacuum inlet. If I go with bigger tube sized down into the releaser will I just lose the extra vacuum due to the bottleneck at the releaser?

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Yes your dry line should be bigger basically because of what 802 said. having the larger diam. pipe, there is more volume of air and less restriction. how much bigger is debatable....I would have to guess that it depends on the cfm's that you need to pull.

[802maple]

Yes Maple hill I understand what you are saying that it only requires 5 cfm to run the realeaser, but unless I am wrong we are here to make syrup and not just run a releaser. When I set up a system I want just as much vacuum at the back of the woods or as close to it as possible as to what I have at the pump. and that can not be accomplished with undersized mainline. We have enough problems ( ie. squirrels, moose, etc.) keeping our system air tight without us causing our own problems.

[Russell Lampron]

I am using a Delaval 73 with a 3/4hp motor on it. I used a 3/4" pipe and ran it 900 feet to my releaser. From my releaser I have two 3/4" main lines, one is 900 feet long coming back up the hill and the other is 150 feet long across the bottom of the hill.

For the 200 taps I have on this system it works great. I can maintain 18" of vacuum, even at the last tap, with plenty of adjustment left on the vacuum regulator. My Gilles Bernard mechanical releaser works properly as well.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

Maple Hill, I understand what you are saying and in a ideal world it works just fine, but Danno has said that he is going to be expanding in the future and that is what i am looking toward that end. I know there are people that never step into the woods after they tap and that is a shame. I have had a had a long run 3/4 much shorter than what you were saying with absolutely nothing plugged into, that would create less than a 1/8th of the vacuum at the end verse's what was at the pump. The reason the manufacturers put 1 1/2 or larger connections on the releasers are there for a reason. Over the years I have sold many releasers and had people come to me and say that it was working slowly or not at all, and after I travelled great distances sometimes to see why, most every time it was because they didn,t have enough vacuum storage before the releaser( ie small lines) to make it work well.

I am sorry that we disagree on this, but there are some leaks that can not be detected such as air permeating the plastic and natural gases from the tree itself. I am not challenging your abilities at all as it seems like you go out and check and maintain your lines. Probably to be continued as we can all learn

[danno]

Cost was the primary reason I am trying to keep my wet and dry lines at 1". Prices over 1" seem to go up like crazy. I can buy 300' of 1" for $60 (poly pipe). 1 1/4 was like a $160 for the same roll. At a couple thousand feet, that adds up in a hurry. My 6-8% pitch should help.

I've decided tp bring the releaser down to the house by the pump. Although I'm adding a few hundred feet of mainline, it will be easier/cheaper to run 2" from my pump to releaser. I might just put in the wet line this year (ran 2000 feet of high tensile yesterday) and the dry line next season. We'll see. I will be quite dissapointed however it I put the whole system in and than can't draw at least 15-18 vac. at top of the bush.

Thanks to all who have reponded to this thread. Gave me allot to consider.

Danno

[802maple]

Don't forget as I mentioned earlier that you can get 1 1/2 schedule 26 pvc pipe in 20" lengths and glue it together as it is much easier to work with and it doesn't cost alot more than 1" mainline. In Canada it is widely used and we have also had pretty good success with it.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

Calm down Maple Hill, you are right there are bad systems, fair systems, good systems, and excellent systems, and if you don't pay attention to the details they can all become bad.

My thoughts are not just pulled out of the air, they are from many years of experience, just like yourself. Danno asked us for ideas, I gave him what I believe is the best transfer of vacuum to the woods that can be had and you gave him what you believe to be the best, we just simply disagree on this. This disagreement has not given the excuse to call someone a SOB. I certainly have nothing to gain from the sale, for a matter of fact Danno should go to a plumbing supply and buy his material from them as it would be cheaper whether he uses my ideas or yours.

As I have mentioned we have used the pvc and there is very little difference in the price between good food grade 1" poly and this , plus it is white and doesn't draw as much heat.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

I'm with you and think the size of mainlines are way over inflated. I don't have anything over 1/2" and with 50 to 75 taps on 1/2" main lines, at the peak flow, it don't fill 10% of the 1/2" mainline. I could easily run 300 to 400 taps on it and these are trees that run really well sap per tap and not even have close to a full line of sap. :? The fewer taps per lateral and the bigger the mainline, the more tubing and fitting and etc sales. :?

[royalmaple]

Off Topic, but do any of you guys know who the first Millionaire in the Gold rush was?

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

:D :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

My train thought on this is eliminate some of the variables right from the beginning. If a system losing 3 inches of vacuum from 1 spout being out only reinforces my argument. It takes several spouts with large dry lines to show this kind of drop.

I can look at our guages just like you do and tell if there is a leak or look at the exhaust from the pump, which there should not be much if any if you are tight. I also check valves too see if there are leaks.

If a system is losing 3 inches than you are penalizing the whole system. I agree some people over size their pump to cure there leaks, that is like turning up your radio to make engine noises go away.

Some people are also under the opinion that vacuum does nothing for you in a good run which could not be further from the fact. In my old system in a good run the vacuum would decrease in huge runs as it could not transfer thru a full pipe, but this doesn't occurr with the larger dry lines in our present system

[802maple]

Royal maple is that the one that knew where to look.

[royalmaple]

Good answer, but fact was the guy that was the first millionaire was the supplier of equipment.

He didn't need to find 1 ounce of gold, just sell the dream. Or reinforce the dream with the equipment.

Everyone already had all the hype, they just needed the means to "try" and get rich.

And he never hurt his back, unless it was carrying the money bales.

[802maple]

I get it. Although I don't know if it works that way for everybody as I can't figure out which way I have lost the most money, equipment supplier or maple sugarmaker,LOL see you Saturday

[New Hope Mapleman]

802,
when you guys use the PVC are you running sch 40 or not? I was wondering about this option and am getting ready to run a new dryline to the current expansion.
I guess you were just running the PVC to your high tension wire? Saw one guy who used wood framing right up the woods for his dry. Seemed like alot of annual upkeep.
By the way this discussion is great! Keep it up. We need to think through some of the things we are doing!
Thanks
Dan

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

To answer your question New Hope we use schedule 26 with the bell already on the pipe that allows for the pipe to be glued together without having a coupling, do not use the bell with a rubber gasket as that will eventually leak. We use it to our first booster some 5000 feet from our sugarhouse. It is much less expensive than 2 inch mainline. We have over the years had trees fall on it and sometimes it has done damage to it. But it is a very easy fix compared to fixing regular mainline just cut out what is damaged cut another piecethe same length 2 couplings and glue and your back in business. Yes it is hung on wire but it doesn't need as many wire ties as it will not sag as easily. In the installation glue several pieces together at the sugarhous usually in 100 foot lengths and drag them into the woods they drag very easily 5 or6 to a time with no looping to deal with.

Maple Hill I still say that if you use larger mainlines with the same pumps you will not see as much a vacuum loss when you lose a spout because you are not losing through restriction the precious cfm"s that are required to keep up the vacuum in the woods that are needed to maintain the those numbers, atleast that is my experience.

[danno]

Well, the work progresses. Got the trail cleared, 2000+ of high tensile run (boy, those jenny spinners make that job easier) and picked up 3000 feet of a 1" tube from a fellow board member last night. Will have the Delaval by next weekend and just waiting for the releaser to come in. Just have to hang that tube, but not in today's ice storm.

Anybody want to review a good set up for vacuum gauges. I'm thinking of one right after the releaser and one on each end of my mainlines with valves to close off each one of the mainlines to check for leaks? Does that make sense?

Anybody ever use a jenny spinner for putting out mainline? I have a way of getting that kinked when I roll it out free hand.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

I have seen in my own operation a 4000' run of 3/4 inch line that was completely separated created 16 inches of vacuum at the pump and releaser with a 2 hp piston pump ( which certainly isn't overkill) when it only created 18 inches when it was put back together on a tight system.

The reason for this is my favorite word restriction. It is completely possible to run any size line with whatever size pump far enough and have a completely open system at the end of this line and create vacuum up to perfect vacuum which if my memory is correct is 27Hg because of this restriction

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

802,

Do you run your sap thru the RO twice to get 22% sugar?? Is the taste affected any by the short boiling time??

With a 5x14, do you just let the valve drain off syrup constantly??

[powerdub]

Brandon,
802 was at the VT maple school on the RO round table panel. I was actually amazed that he was not the only one doing this with his RO. I quite an interesting thing to listen to.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[802maple]

Well first to Westvirginiamapler. Yes , what we do is when one of our 4500 gallon tanks is full we start our first RO up which is a 1800 gallon machine and it let recirculate sap back into the same tank for a couple of hours at that time we usually start the second 1800 gallon machine and let that do the same thing for about a hour before we start feeding the feed tank to the evaporator. When we start feeding the evaporator the sap in the tank depending on whether the sap is running or not will be around 12%. We than feed the evaporator with the machine that has only been running for a hour and let the other one continue to recirc the storage tank. Usaully about a hour and a half later we are all done boiling and have made approx. 150 gallons or more if the sap is really running. We would most often do this twice a day as to keep the sap fresh.

As to whether it effects the flavor or not there might be a slightly lighter flavor. What I have noticed is that the darker syrups in my opinion have a better flavor, but I am not a good judge of this, because I don't personally like dark syrup, as far as I am concerned sugaring is over when we stop making medium amber, but the rest of the crap made after that does help pay the bills so we continue making it.

As to your math test Maplehill I will answer that tomorrow as I think it is time to go bed

[802maple]

Maple hill that is a pretty open ended question as there can be a lot of variables to it. How many taps? Not many I am assuming because you don't have enough cfm's to make much more than a average crop. To make a consistent crop of around a half gallon per tap one needs 20 cfm for the first thousand, 15 additional cfm for the next thousand 10 cfm for each additional 1000 taps thereafter.

Also you didn't mention what kind of pump you were going to use, oil cooled, water cooled, piston, or vane pump. As you already know depending on how much they warm up they lose different amounts of cfm's. thru the day, which one would have factor in

Also what releaser you would be using as every time a manual dumps you lose a certain amount of cfm's depending on the size and amount of taps, where a electric loses minimal amounts

[802maple]

As I think about his I think that we are 2 of the most stubborn SOB's on the planet and I think we need to call NASA in on this to settle it.

I know what works for us and what didn't work for us
and you obviously know what works for you.

This has been a good thread and alot of fun and lets see if we can make mother nature work for us now

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

802,

Interesting about dark syrup. To me and most of my customers, they would all prefer the dark syrup as it has a lot more flavor. The light is just too light on flavor in my opinion. :D

[802maple]

Thats why they make Chevy's and Fords, not everybody is the same. I personally don't like dark syrup as to me there is more flavor but it is not maple. In my opinion and probably only mine is that light syrup is the only syrup that you taste maple the rest is overcome by the carmel flavor of dark syrup. I have set in on many judgings and I have never seen a dark syrup that had good smooth maple flavor that I crave. It is always what I call a carmel flavor and doesn't even resemble maple to me, but that is me.
What I find interesting when the maple industry was mostly buckets and made mostly fancy syrup the market was for Fancy. Now that most everybody is pipeline and it is harder to make fancy, that it has become the darker syrups. When I was kid we sold approx. 700 gallons a year at the farm of which 90% was fancy and we could hardly give dark syrup away. People started seeing that we were selling dark syrup cheaper and all of a sudden it was the favorite. Funny world

[brookledge]

I know this is not about the original topic of vacuum but as long as you mention the change in the industry for grades. I was told the other day that the bulk market for producers to sell will be pretty much a flat line of all grades around $2.00 It was only a few years ago when Bgrade and commercial where under $1.00/lb.
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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