120 taps on a 5/16" line

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just curious if anyone has tried this? I have new section of woods that I have access to and it has about 120 good taps and just a thought that I might generate some good vacuum with it or it may be counterproductive. It would be running about 1000' into its own tank.

[Machinist67]

how much elevation drop do you have in the 1000'? I also would think that if you have a section of 3/16" tubing below your lowest tap to the tank it would help create more vacuum. (I will be trying this next year.) I wonder if VT research has tried this?

[collinsmapleman2012]

it might work, never seen it done, the only thing that I see with I is the sheer volume of sap coming from 120 taps on 5/16 might overwhelm the line. could work like 3/16 if you have a good slope at the end. that's a lot of length for a line though, but I think if you have some drop at the end and constant slope along you might overcome that. oh and with that length, remember you will need lots of support and some ways to keep tension on it. try it out for a year or two as a research line, give it a separate tank and maybe a vac gauge at the end to find out how it really works. maybe your onto something with this, who knows. let us know how it goes.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Down the center of the hollow it would be on 9 or 12.5 gauge wire to ensure constant slope and no sags. Last 250' have pretty good drop. Haven't checked elevation with GPS but would guess it drops 150' in elevation, maybe 200' over 1000'.

[windyacres]

I have 40 taps on two separate 5/16 lines. they start out with 20 x2 on 3/16 and wye into one two 5/16 . total 80 taps. they have consistently pulled 17-18 inches vacuum and have outproduced 5/16 to a 3/4 mainline by 250 % Season half over .. a trick I have learned by observing flows into the wyes. - one of the small lines will take priority- highest vacuum- so the other line suffers--- to counter this you put two looplines ,total length 18 inches. They form an X -one end below the wyes and the other end 6 inches behind the wye ON opposing small lines (an X ) This essentially ensures that all lines get exactly the same vacuum so one cannot hog vacuum. you will observe all lines are travelling approx. same- more taps a wee bit faster. I can draw this better than words. Next year I will put about 300 on what I call 5/16 mainline-by wyeing pairs of 3/16 plus equalization loop.

[harrison6jd]

I have 40 taps on two separate 5/16 lines. they start out with 20 x2 on 3/16 and wye into one two 5/16 . total 80 taps. they have consistently pulled 17-18 inches vacuum and have outproduced 5/16 to a 3/4 mainline by 250 % Season half over .. a trick I have learned by observing flows into the wyes. - one of the small lines will take priority- highest vacuum- so the other line suffers--- to counter this you put two looplines ,total length 18 inches. They form an X -one end below the wyes and the other end 6 inches behind the wye ON opposing small lines (an X ) This essentially ensures that all lines get exactly the same vacuum so one cannot hog vacuum. you will observe all lines are travelling approx. same- more taps a wee bit faster. I can draw this better than words. Next year I will put about 300 on what I call 5/16 mainline-by wyeing pairs of 3/16 plus equalization loop.

I noticed the same vac differences on my lines but could understand what was happening. I have 115 taps all on 5/16 lines with a shurflow pump and had one inersection that was doing the same thing. Thought. It was just pulling one side because of least resistance. Is there anyway to post a pic of what you are describing?

[Chasefamily]

Just hooked up a shurflo pump today and I also noticed it has I have 44taps 5/16 last into 1/2 main and using the 4 way lamb fitting one side seemed to be flowing good other not so much but next day for run was gonna look into it.

I am going to put another 300 tap line setup in and was planning on just 5/16 lats into like 3/4 or inch mainline. But u guys are finding 3/16 into 5/16 is flowing better cuz of vacuum. Is this just natural vac or with a pump or vac setup

[220 maple]

Brandon,
Ed is planning on bringing video to the meeting in May, He is using 5/16 tubing an has high vacuum. He keeps telling me that he will not buy another vacuum pump!
On time Ivan Puffenbarger told me he had 48 taps on a 5/16 tubing line behind his camp, before vacuuming, he said he believed they ran harder than they do now on vacuum. Probably high natural vacuum, my guess.

Mark 220 Maple

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

That would be good. I have a new section and is has 120 awesome taps on it that will produce really good and thought about just going 5/16" on all of it to try it. I could go 3/16" into 1/2" mainlines too but I would think if the 3/16" will create 30" vac, so should 5/16" should be able to also. All of the taps have good slope and only thing that would not have lot of slope would be the 5/16" connector line running down the bottom of the valley. The last 300' of it would have good slope. Be interesting to see what windyacres is doing if he will post some pics. Maybe Dr Perkins can chime in here too.

[PerryW]

how much elevation drop do you have in the 1000'? I also would think that if you have a section of 3/16" tubing below your lowest tap to the tank it would help create more vacuum. (I will be trying this next year.) I wonder if VT research has tried this?

With 120 taps , I would say there is no way that volume would fit through 3/16" tubing without severely restricting the flow.

[swlyamaha]

I have at least 140 taps on one 5/16 line. It is 500 to 800 feet long. It has five branches on it, but it runs down to one 5/16 line to the 275 tank. It has been my best producer this year. I have another 300 taps 5/16 to 3/4 main line and it has produced half the sap that the 140 tap on 5/16 has. You can watch it run and where the branches come into the main part it looks like the sap in the branch is at a stop light wait for it to turn green. :)

[windyacres]

120 is way to much. from Wilmot research data we know the small line will run at least 6 gallon/hour on ideal condition x 2.5 for 5/16 is 15 gallon/ hour . A very good run on a bucket might run gallon in 5 hours. High vacuum could be 2.5 times more or .5 /gal hour. if these facts are correct or close then 30 taps would come close to max flow for a 5/16 line under a almost perfect vacuum, My concept that I will more fully utilize next year, will be to funnel all 3/16 into 5/16 (by pairing small lines) via wye or tee , and equalizing vacuum on each pair, then dropping the sap the rest of the way 1000 feet and 70 drop via several 5/16 in lieu of present 3/4 mainline. the mainlin e (series of 5/16 can be rolled out quick each year and stretched with AtV. This insures they are clean and no bear-squirrel chews, plus lines not subject to ultra violet rays. 316 laterals stay out

[Sugarmaker]

Brandon,
What ever you decide I know you will get sap to the bottom. Just get those 120 on line for next season! Sounds like a ice group of trees. We don't have the slope for 3/16 so I have not tried it. That many taps my gut says 5/16 to allow the flow?
Regards,
Chris

[maple flats]

While I've never tried anything like that, the elevation drop at the bottom (after the last tap) looks to be critical. I do not think the 5/16 will handle that much quantity of sap and will thus cause a loss of potential. I realize it will shoot out the bottom with good force, but note with as much sap as a 2 or 3 split would total.I'd either split it in 2 or better 3 separate lines for either 60 or better 40 per. It seems several have very successfully run 40 for great natural vacuum.
My understanding of the use of 3/16 tubing is so the line will fill up to create the vacuum. In your case, with 40 (or 60 or 120) taps on a 5/16 it will certainly fill up and then you need the ability to get that much sap thru the tubeing.

[PerryW]

There are two things fighting each other with liquid flow through a pipe.

1) the gravity head produced by the vertical drop through the tubing run.

2) The Dynamic Frictional Loss (resistance) of the liquid traveling through the pipe.

When you run the numbers for Dynamic Frictional Loss, the pipe diameter and flow rate (GPH) are entered into the equation the result is a number (also measured in "feet of head") which works against the Gravity Head.

The bottom line is that when the liquid flows too fast in the pipe, the frictional loss works against the gravity head and you start reducing sap flow.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Ok, guys, I am talking about putting 120 taps on all 5/16". Never considered putting it on 3/16". What I mentioned about the 3/16" was running it all into a 1/2" mainline down the bottom of the hollow if I didn't do the 120 all on 5/16". Just debate to see what will work the best.

[RollinsOrchards]

I have about 35 good taps on one run of 5/16ths, and I would hesitate about putting many more on it. The sap really shoots out into the tank. We also had a lot of trouble with that line freezing and taking most of the day to thaw as full as it was.

So if we assume that one run of 5/16ths will carry 40 taps. The cost to run three side by side strands of 5/16ths is comparable to a 3/4 mainline.

5/16ths seems to sag between ties to a wire much more than a stiffer mainline. 5/16ths is also easier to pinch while tying it to a wire.


So I would suggest that a 3/4 mainline would serve you well in this case.

[Russell Lampron]

I would suggest to anyone that is thinking of trying this to read all that you can about it first. There are a few threads here that cover this topic very well. From what I have read the results are amazing if it is set up right. Tap count on a lateral and good slope seem to be the biggest issues to making it work.

I am going to try a small section of trees next season. I don't have much slope but if I tap the upper end trees high and the ones at the tank end low I can create hopefully enough slope to make it work.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Russ,

I have been doing a lot of research on it and read posts on here and all the research info I can find from Cornell and Proctor. Will keep researching and see what happens.

[Russell Lampron]

Russ,

I have been doing a lot of research on it and read posts on here and all the research info I can find from Cornell and Proctor. Will keep researching and see what happens.

I will be very interested in how you set it up and how it works for you. I will post my own results too.

[Z/MAN]

I have 20 taps on a 5/16 line. Only 7 of these taps are on the top of the slope, the rest are at the bottom where there is not much grade at all and the catch tank is right at the last tap. This line has pulled as much as 9 inches of vacuum. This shows that decent vacuum is possible with out a large drop after the last tap although I'm sure the larger drop helps. I think I had a leak this year as I only pulled 4 inches but even so this line out produced another line with 27 taps going into a 3/4 inch mainline every run! I may redo the whole woods in the future and try the 3/16.

[andyp]

I have two vacuum lines.One 3/16 all the way with 28 taps ran great.
The other 5/16 2/3 of the way down the slope with a 3/16 pig tail the rest of the way
about a 100 ft long. They both had 28 taps and ran the same.
Planning more next year with 5/16 and 3/16 pig tail.
Andyp