Tubing to Totes. ?Fittings, Tools?

[JohnM]

I have about 100' semi rigid tubing left from tapping to 5 gal buckets. Would like to try a couple lateral lines to totes. Already have some 5/16 tees. What other fittings, tools will I need to set up the lines? Especially interested in how to end the lines. :?

Thank you!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

John,

Other than spouts, you should be ok to go. You can start the line at the tree with a tee and at the tote, just make the hole snug and push the tubing right down into the tote 2 or 3 inches is what I do. Might want to lay a little weight on top of the tope if it is empty so the wind don't blow it around. :D

Any changes to this years setup??

[royalmaple]

John start your lateral on you end tree. Lets say you want to tap 5 trees on this lateral and end in a tote. Think that is what you want.

Take your end tree and use a 5/16 "Y" fitting loop around the tree and attach tubing to both tips of the y, you'll have to cut the tubing say it takes a 24 inch piece. Now you have a loop around the tree connected to a y, take your 5/16 line and attach to the straight part of the y. Run your tubing zig zagging by each tree you are going to tap or other trees along the way to keep the line up off the ground. Then since you are going to end up in a tote, you really can't put tension on the tote or it will just move. So what I have done in this instance is make an identical situation as the starting tree or last tree and do this before the tote.

Then you can get that lateral very tight and pitched and it will stay. So now you have a closed tubing system, and in order to get the sap to the tote you can cut in a t or y in that end loop and run a piece of tubing loosely to the tote. Should work just fine. Just cut in your t's from your drops at the appropriate location for your trees along the way.

[royalmaple]

I actually have a decent picture of the end loops in my 2006 maple pics, Look at 32206-13 picture. Should clear it up a bit for you.

[JohnM]

John,

Other than spouts, you should be ok to go. You can start the line at the tree with a tee and at the tote, just make the hole snug and push the tubing right down into the tote 2 or 3 inches is what I do. Might want to lay a little weight on top of the tope if it is empty so the wind don't blow it around. :D

Any changes to this years setup??


Thanks Brandon.

About the same set-up. I still enjoy boiling outside with your old pan.

Looks like it will be extra muddy this year. Planning to used the tote (44gal) and latterals to lessen treading in it. Would also like to arrange some black water pipe and a pump get it accross the creek. :D

[JohnM]

Thanks for the reply and the pictures Matt. You have a great looking setup there!

[royalmaple]

I got pleanty more tweaking to do, but things are coming along. Glad it is so cold so that I am not thinking about sugaring.

It was almost 70 here today when the rain broke and the sun popped out. Yikes!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

John,

If you don't want to order "y"s, you can use tees for the end trees for this year. No sense in ordering 3 or 4. :D

[tuckermtn]

what method of empting the totes (30-50 gal) do people use? Seems like a hastle to break out the honda pump each time...takes longer to set up than to pump. Want to set up some totes for 5-10 laterals but not sure of a good system to empty...

[Russell Lampron]

Tuckermtn,

You can bail out the tote with a gathering pail until you empty it enough to lift it and dump it.

Russ

[ibby458]

A lot of people use a 12 volt bilge pump. Get the biggest one you can afford/find. Standing there waiting for it to empty is tedious!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I throw one of my 9 quart aluminum sap buckets in the tote and bail it out until it has about 3 gallon left and then dump it in the bucket. Might sound time consuming, but it don't take long to fill a 5 gallon bucket with a 9 quart, less than 10 seconds. This is faster and less time consuming that fooling with any kind of pump.

[small_operator]

I don't know how much difference it makes, but I heard some people use a single line to the end tap and use a gripper to tie it off to the tree. The idea being with a Y you can get sap flowing largely in one direction around the tree while the other path of the Y breeds bacteria. Another approach is to use a passthru T that has the tubing go thru a ring, around the tree to the droplines and then terminates on an air tight barb on the same ring. The idea there is that the sap will only flow in one direction due to gravity/vaccuum.

[Russell Lampron]

The problem with the end line rings is that you always seem to get a sag on the back side of the tree and unless you have vacuum the sap just sits there. Darveau made a end tree tee that was plugged on one end so that the sap would only flow through it one way. You can put it in so that the sap doesn't go around the back of the tree, just out into the line to the next tree.

Russ

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I had end of the line rings on all my trees and changed out all of them this year to "y's". End of the line rings are probably good with vacuum but I have a lot of end of the line trees that are 24 to 30+ inches in diameter and it is basically impossible not to have sags or dips in the tubing and the sap has to flow all the way around the tree. If you have 2 taps on the end of the line tree, put them up close to the "y" on each side and make the drops a little longer and this will ensure the sap just flows a little before hitting the "y". You can pull the center of the tubing up on the backside of the tree away from the "y" and this way the sap has to flow straight thru the "y".

[Sugarmaker]

As far as emptying the totes I am going to try a 12 volt bilge pump with a 24 foot hose. Not sure how this will work, but will let you know if I get it going.
I think a 2000 gph RULE pump should be about right.
Chris

[Pete33Vt]

I checked out the fittings made by Darveau. They look like they would work great. Its a good thing they are orange. I would be upset to stick one of those into my line anywhere else.

[Father & Son]

Brandon,
Do all your laterals stay up all year or do you take them down? If you take them down, how do you take them apart without cutting and loosing tubing length?

Jim

[Sugarmaker]

Just ordered the remote 12 volt pump today, From Star Marine Depot. Should have by next week mid so I can start to look at the plumbing and wiring aspects.
Jim,
I am going to try the quick disconnects from Leader #4746B as a way to allow the take down of tubing. Not sure how much pressure these will take? But with just roadside trees I should not have to tug on these much? Hopefully they will allow for removal without cutting the tubing. These were suggested buy another trader last year when I was thinking about this.
I just did some rough numbers and it looks like it may cost between $3.00 and $4.00 per tap to set up a road side tubing system.

Brandon,
The "Y" s that you use, are they like the Leader blue (heavy duty 5/16) ones?
I see the dummy "Y"s (black) also in Leader information but looks like they don't allow flow through the tubing around the tree?
I haven't done this before but seems to me that the drops are going to need to go into the tubing that is going to go around the tree. ( I expect to have 3 or 4 drops per tree). Can some one comment on this?

Also do I really need to spend $130 on a tubing tool for 100 taps??

Regards,
Chris

[Jim Brown]

Chris; You do not need to spend $100.00 on a tool. When we started two years ago to put tubing in we asked the same question to our dealer in Coudersport(Bryan and Donna)Bryan said if you have lots of money go for it,if not get a thermos of BOILING hot water. It won't be boiling by the time you get to were your going. Just stick the end of the tubing in the hot water. NOT VERY LONG!Only a couple of seconds and it will slip right on to the fittings.We do all ours this way and we got a thermos with a filp top stopper and the 5/16 just fits through the hole. Open the flip top, stick in tubing ,pull out close flip top so the hot water stays hot and you don't splash on your leg as you got to the next tree.
Worked for our 800 but make sure you are right the first time because you will have to cut it off if you need to change it
Hope this helps
Jim
PS the back is coming along GREAT!

[markcasper]

As far as the end of line rings go, I don't care for them as almost everyone has stagnant sap in them at some point and never drains. I use the "slide fittings" for the end trees. They are about the same cost as a Y and by using a piece of wire tied to the end tree, it eliminates rodent damage to tubing, b/c there is no tubing going around the tree.

If a line needs to be tightened up , you just slide the fitting up or down to the desired tension. I always slide my hand around the wire while inspecting lines to keep the tree from growing around and swallowing the wire. Mark

[maplehound]

Those slide fittings work great. Especially if you are going to take the lines down every year. The quick disconnects don't work very well, they leak under a little tension and pull apart under just enough tension to keep the line tight. If you are going to use them you will need to put a hose clamp or a wire tie around them to keep them together and even then you should use them in that dead tubing around the tree so they won't leak.

[Sugarmaker]

Good comments.
Sounds like the slide fittings are used with wire? Any one have a picture of this set up? I wasn't planning to use wire. So what is my best option.

I don't want to start with the plastic quick disconnect if they are not going to work.

Jim,
I know you mentioned the hot water before.:) I forgot. Thanks you saved me $130. :D I will try that.
Thanks,
Chris

[maplehound]

Slide fittings are used with wire at the mainline, but at the end tree they have a piece that hooks around the tubing. So when you rap the tubing around the tree just hoook it back to itself, the tubing just passes through the slide tubing like a chinese finger puzzle, then jus tput your spile on the end of the tubing. no dead space at all. You can also use a scrap piece of tubing around the tree and atach your fitting to the scrap piece. There are as many ideas for this as there are tubing setups and they all work, just some better than others in there each situation.

[Sugarmaker]

Thanks Matt,
Looking forward to learning more about tubing form you guys. I am sure there are many ways to set this up and I will trial and error a little, to see what works for us.
Regards,
Chris

[markcasper]

maplehound, You can use the slide fittings with or without wire at the end trees. I was going around the tree with the tube and hooking it with the clip. What do you do when a squirrel bites in? Then its back to putting a connector in and always being shortended on the last tree. After replacing tubing loops for 2 years in a row, I decided on wire, 14 or 16 gauge electric fence wire. It works great and no more squrrel problems on the end trees.

The wire can easily be moved an inch or so each year to prevent the tree growing into it. That wire is easy to move, unlike the end of mainline wire which is under enormous tension and requires a "detensioning" almost to move the wire. I have not moved any lately b/c of the blocking at the end of mainline trees.

[maplehound]

I had never thought about trieng it with a wire around a tree till I read it here, but a local dealer had a mini tubing set up at our Maple days, and he used a piece of 5/16 tubing around the tree then tied off or used a repair fitting to connect. Then he just hooked to that just like he would to go around the tree. I though it worked great. He used the tubing instead of wire just to add extra protection to the tree. Like I said before there are as many ways of putting tubing up as there are woods with tubing in them. They all work well in their sitiation but may not work as well somewhere else.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Chris,

I use the black "Y's" and dont really care what brand as long as they are sturdy. Basically anything but the blue Lamb ones.

As far as a 2 handed tubing tool, I wouldn't be without one but to each his own. I start at the tree farthest from mainline and run the tubing route completely to the mainline and stretch it tight and then go back and cut in each of my drops.

As far as drops, I usually make them up ahead of time at home with some boiling water. I also have a one handed tubing tool I got this year for around $ 60 from the maple guys and it works great.

[Sugarmaker]

Brandon and every one thanks again for the ideas. ( Will not try the blue "Y's" They were on my list but I designed them out last night.) I have worked out a system in my head and on paper that I think will work for me.
Question does any one anchor to the tree through the plastic fittings with the holes in them Tees and straights have these holes.? I was think about a 2-1/2 inch galvanized deck screw through that type of fitting to allow me to get the 5/16 lines between trees tight??

Chris

[maplehound]

I always avoid putting nails or screws into the trees. If you streach your line from tree to tree and have a good anchor at the start and end, you won't need to anchor at each tree.

[ebourassa]

The first year i set up tubing using 4 season and some other stuff a guy gave me, we put the fittings together with a small torch, heat up the end a little and slid the fitting on, then we would hurry an put snow on it to cool it off, just be careful not to burn the tubing to much, I tried the boiling water and it worked but the water wouldn't stay hot long enough to finish the job, I know own a tubing tool and its worth its wait in gold.

[brookledge]

Nothing beats a tubing tool. I know they cost a few bucks but heat is not good for plastic tubing especially if you are using vacuum. Boiling water and torches will affect the way the tubing seals around the fittings and will leak sooner than if you use a tool.
Keith

[maplehound]

If you have a good welder. I would borow one from the neighbor and jus tmake one yourself. At least that is what I did. Mine even worked beter than the neighbors. His had worn over the years and mine was made to hold up longer.

[PA mapler]

I started using the new end-tree fittings a few years ago, and really like them. I use old straights and a make a loop around the end tree, and thread the "hole" of the end-tree fitting onto it. It eliminates the "dead end" I used to have, and also helps keep my lines nice and tight, no sags.

I haven't seen it mentioned here, and will probably be laughed at, but I use the old chew-on-the-tubing method to put my connections together in the woods. I've never had any lines come apart this way, and it's not too bad unless you have alot of fittings to do. Then it's hard on the jaws muscles. I use boiling water in the house to do batches of drop lines, though.

[royalmaple]

I got some pictures on my link if anyone is looking for an upclose look at the tubing tool I got.

Someone was going to make one last year and wanted to see what they looked like.

[Fred Henderson]

I bought one of those 2 maybe 3 years ago. It just does not have the heavy weighted handle on the vise grip. Probably an older model. It would make tubeing work diffcult without them.

[hholt]

.......Would also like to arrange some black water pipe and a pump get it accross the creek. :D

EUREKA!!!

John my best box elders are all locked in by a creek and a lateral ditch about 15' deep....private property on the other side makes it very hard to access without wading or climbing. I had actually thought about a small bridge to get to it, or floating out sap in a drum by canoe and then pumping it up to a bridge.....30 feet of gravity fed water pipe will giterdun a whole lot easier.

I probably have 30-40 mature box elders over there, and a lot of nice silver maples too. Thanks for the idea.......dang I like the website!!!!

[Sugarmaker]

Any one know any thing about the Rule pumps with automatic on feature? I wired mine up and it seems to have a 30-40 second delay before the pump kicks on. That is not going to be acceptable. I want it to start as soon as I put it in the tote. I do have a option of wiring in a switch but thought the pump with out a float would be the way to go?:( Any ideas would be helpful.
It is a Rule 2000 Automatic.
Other than that it may work OK. Still a few bugs to work out as usual and a half mile of tubing to string.

Regards,
Chris

[Fred Henderson]

If you read your instructions that is a feature built into the pump. That pump was designed to be used in a boat bildge. The delay kepts it from cycling with only just a little bit of water. In other words the water has to be several inches deep. Mine does the small thing.

[Sugarmaker]

Fred,
I will look at the instructions again. I know that they show a switch with both the brown wires going to that. One side is the auto feature and the other is manual. So I may just have to go to the manual switch side of the circuit. I don't want to wait 30 seconds for it to kick on. I could have bought a cheaper pump and added a float switch. Oh well live and learn. It does pump. I did a trial last night in the garage and looks like this LOW TECH system may work. I wired it in to the parking lights, through the 4 prong connector.

We have snowy conditions today in Erie.

Thanks,
Chris

[Fred Henderson]

I would just plug mine into the 7 pin conn. I had a caged tank in the bed and 1/3 of a plastic barrell. Even with three people dumping a 5 gal pail it would keep up.

[Sugarmaker]

Fred,
My dumping station pump the 3700 is plugged into the 7 pin connection. I wanted this remote pump to be on is own plug so I opted to us the 4 pin.
I did get the remote 2000 working closer to what I wanted.:D I wired in a $3.00 toggle switch and will use that to start and stop the remote pump. I tried it tonight. Just spent to much on the pump, Another lesson learned.

The neighbor plowed out about 12-16 inches of snow from the drive. I used the little 14 hp Bolens and it was about like using a teaspoon. Getting harder to find places to pile the stuff. Hope the thaw is coming next week like Jim (F&S) and the weather lady ( Cheryl) predicts.

On ward to build some drops.

I will have some picture of the remote pump to post when I can get on our other computer,

Regards,
Chris

[Dave Puhl]

Fred H. what pump do you have..Do you guys use it to pump out of totes or barrels at stations how far away are you pumping from the collecting stations are you..

[Fred Henderson]

I have a Rule 1500 and I use it to pump out of a barrell into another barrel on my RTV and when gathering the buckets because the RTV is so high I have a 5 gal plastic pail hanging off the tail gate. Where we dump into that and it pumps up into the barrel.

[Dave Y]

Chris,
When I wired my pump station, I took an extetion cord and wired it directly to the battery. That way you have have a dedicated power sorce. I also put an in lone fuse on it.

[Sugarmaker]

Dave P,
Here are some pictures of the remote pump setting in the dumping station.
Hope this works. I had not tried the attachment feature yet.
I have about 24 feet of hose.
Chris

12

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14

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16

Should be worth about 5000 words!;)

[Dave Puhl]

Sugarmaker...Thanks for the pixs.Is that a check valve by the pump, great idea...whats are we looking...the bottom fulll of holes?

[Sugarmaker]

Dave P,
Yes that's a check valve so the sap doesn't run back into the tote. (at least that's how it looked on paper) Time will tell how this works. The thing above the check valve is a replacement sliding fitting that I found in the PVC supplies are and just had to have another gizzmo on it. I rotates (180 without the wire attached, and telescopes about 3 or 4 inches too.
The holes are the screen of the stationary dumping station which is on the back of the truck. We dump sap into that are from road side buckets and the pump (Rule 3700) for that system is below in the bottom of the barrel. I have a better picture of the dumping station on the truck on our web site.

Regards,
Chris

[tuckermtn]

chris- what did you wind up doing for "hose management"? simple coiling or some type of re-coil reel?

[Sugarmaker]

Tuckermnt,
I went the simple route and in picture 2 you can see the hose and wire assembly wrapped around the dumping station barrel. About 4 wraps. The reel just looked like to big of a project.
Thanks for your input.
Chris

[Sugarmaker]

Built the rest of my drops tonight (30). Some how I am going to get 195 + taps out on tubing this year. I still have to get the totes out and placed in the snow banks with some type of platform to tie them down and keep them level as the snow melts. I probably will start with pallets and bungee the totes to that.

I did find one of my 5/16 lines had pulled off of the connection last night. Hope this doesn't happen much. This was a section of drop that I built at home and maybe I heated the tubing to much or did not have it on the fitting all the way?

I talked to one local sugarmaker and he said I made a terrible mistake in putting up the tubing when it was cold. He said the tubing would be all sagged out when it warms up. IF that happens with this Leader memory flex, I will be a very unhappy camper:( . Comments??

By the way the fittings and tubing went together well and quickly. I was pleased with the installation so far. I will let you know more in a week or so. Thinking about tapping as soon as the trees are thawed.

I did put 16 taps on some of the lines. Time will tell how that works with 39 gallon totes. ( I am expecting 1/3 less sap than with buckets )

Regards,
Chris

[brookledge]

Chris
i'm not sure about leader's memory flex but other tubing will not hold good on the fittings if it has been heated.
Keith

[Sugarmaker]

Keith,
Thanks, that may have been the problem? I heated all with hot water.
Maybe I held one in there to long? Well hopefully its not a big problem. I did see some softening on a few of the connections.
Weather is getting just about right for tapping. reached high 40's today.
Hunting down more totes today.

Regards,
Chris

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[Sugarmaker]

Well maybe the good news is I am not going to be using vacuum. But NOW you guys tell me not to use hot water. I always have to learn the hard way. So why should this be any different.:)
Thanks for the information, it may also help some other folks getting started on tubing!
Regards,
Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I know it is a little expensive, but I have a lot of tension on my lateral lines and I have about 6000' in place and I don't have to worry about anything pulling apart. I have Lamp 30p, Lappierre and Beaver River. The tubing tools are expensive, but a one handed and 2 handed tool are a neccessity in my opinion as the fittings won't pull off. Ok to make up drops with hot water if you aren't using vaccum, but don't go any further than that. Good $ 225 investment for both of the tools.

[Lance]

Hey, Guys -- Quick question: Like Brandon and a few others, I've got a two handed tubing tool and wouldn't be without it. It's great for cutting in drops, repairing laterals, etc. Is there a way to use it for putting the end of a 5/16 lateral onto the saddle on the mainline? If not, what's the best way to make that connection? I've used a few licks of a torch before and it works good but we're going to vacuum this year and I don't want to goober up those connections and make the vacuum leak. Thanks in advance!! Love this board!!

[maplehound]

I prefere to use the one handed tool. I don't own a two handed one at all. I manage to get all my conections made with the one handed repair tool.

[royalmaple]

Lance-

Yes you can use the two handed tool on your manifolds. I just take the end of the lateral and put it in the left hand side of my tool, Then I take the right hand side and try to grab a piece of the manifold, or if you are using the double sided manifolds you can lock the right hand side vise grip down and just slide over the empty end. Or if you are putting up a left and right hand lateral into the double, grab them both and hook them on at the same time. Kinda look at the manifold like at T connection. If that makes a better picture.

[Lance]

Thanks, Guys, for the suggestions. Anybody know how many amps the blower on a 2 1/2 x 8 Leader Revolution Inferno Arch draws? Didn't see it anywhere on the plate.

[oneoldsap]

Lance:
Turn your tool upside down. Close the vicegrips on the saddle side and place it behind the elbow on the saddle, grab the tubing on the other side and slide it on. NEVER HEAT TUBING!