Why didn't we do this sooner?!?!?

[ennismaple]

After spending almost 2 hours every day for the past few seasons trying to pressure wash the nitre off our single front pan we realized something needed to change. Our drawoff point was in the back corner of the front pan which just happens to be the hottest point on our evaporator. This meant the nitre got really cooked onto the pan and even with proper levels (2") we sometimes got scorching.

We decided to buy 2 new front pans (the full 4ft x 3.5ft) that were cross flow so we could draw off at the front corner where the heat is lower. While we're boiling on one pan we have the other pan sitting on a rack getting washed. We ran a Y off the permeate line that allows us to direct the excess permeate to the pan being washed. Over several hours the waste permeate eats and lifts all the nitre off the syrup pan with the only effort on our part being the occasional scrub with a plastic scotch brite pad. The syrup pan is as clean as it came out of the crate when the permeate wash is finished. So far this year we haven't used a drop of pan acid to clean the syrup pan.

I can't believe how much time this has saved us! We get 2 extra hours every day to walk lines and do other work instead of getting soaked while running a pressure washer at the camp!

Sometimes it is possible to work smarter and not harder...

[Sugarmaker]

Very interesting. What causes the permeate to act like a cleaner?
Regards,
Chris

[collinsmapleman2012]

being that the permeate is technically ultrafiltered water, there are no impurities. much easier for the permeate to pick up things during a wash, rather than well water that is not as pure. its a pretty neat thing when you think about it. a lot of sugarhouses have separate permeate heaters in their stacks or hoods, because hot permeate is even more effective. I figured out that mine has one in the hood, which I will use when I get an R.O. someday so that I have a good supply of hot, clean water if I need.

[Clarkfield Farms]

Pure water is, technically, a solvent. And an aggressive one. That's why water gets "hard," it dissolves loads of minerals. Try the permeate on your mirrors and windows - it's a terrific cleanser!

[red maples]

I just use white vinegar diluted with water it works great. I heard the Perm works good!!!

[maple flats]

I also run a pan washer utilizing permeate. It even cleaned up a slightly burnt pan (no metal damage, just some real black in one section) with no scrubbing, just continuous recirculating permeate.

[Russell Lampron]

I run a hot permeate wash cycle on my RO for the same reason. It absorbs the minerals that were squeezed out and does a good job of cleaning a fouled membrane.

[ennismaple]

a lot of sugarhouses have separate permeate heaters in their stacks or hoods, because hot permeate is even more effective.

Interesting... Makes sense. We could easily run the permeate through the hood and warm it before it gets to the pan. It's been a great time saver!

[Bucket Head]

Years ago, before I had a preheater and saved the condensate and before I had an RO and lots of permeate, I discovered rain water would loosen up nitre. All the well water around here is classified as "hard" but rainwater and melted snow is called "soft" and it too has a cleaning effect.

Does anyone know what the scientific process thats going on here is called? Its amazing that warm and flowing permeate will work like (or better than) pan acid!

Steve

[markct]

I must have tougher niter or somethin cause i tried every way of permeate cleaning, letting it soak, run thru pan off ro, recirculate with a pump from tank, and none hardly touched it.

[ennismaple]

I must have tougher niter or somethin cause i tried every way of permeate cleaning, letting it soak, run thru pan off ro, recirculate with a pump from tank, and none hardly touched it.

Mark - It could be the quantity of the permeate. I see you're running a 250 GPH RO. Ours is a 600GPH so we push out 300+GPH of permeate and it can take 4 hours of permeate through the syrup pan plus a little elbow grease to get it clean. And our niter will give anyone's a run for their money - it is stubborn!

[markct]

Maybe, i tried it for days tho, and even tried recirculating for 2 weeks and still didnt do much! Spray a lil acid on and job is done overnight.

[mike z]

The niter was so bad last year that I needed to shut down after 12 hrs and clean the pan. I would empty it and add a little vinegar and water and let set overnight on the arch, then washed clean in the morning. This year I got an extra pan like you mentioned and will switch out and clean when it is more handy. ...And the niter is horrible again this year.

[brookledge]

Water likes to have minerals dissolved in it. When you run sap through the ro and the permeate has no minerals it wants to replace them do when it is exposed to nitre some will dissolve back into the water
Keith

[Amber Gold]

Last night, I rigged up my RO's drain so it'd drain into my syrup pan. Put say 800 gallons of permeate water through the syrup pan and the niter buildup is all off...easiest time I spent cleaning a pan before. Still some scrubbing to get it shiney...a light brown "coating" still there on the bottom, but all the niter scale is off. Guessing a scotch bright pad will be needed to make it shiny again. The niter was starting to burn a bit so need to scrub that off too.

Thanks for the idea.

[ennismaple]

Last night, I rigged up my RO's drain so it'd drain into my syrup pan. Put say 800 gallons of permeate water through the syrup pan and the niter buildup is all off...easiest time I spent cleaning a pan before. Still some scrubbing to get it shiney...a light brown "coating" still there on the bottom, but all the niter scale is off. Guessing a scotch bright pad will be needed to make it shiny again. The niter was starting to burn a bit so need to scrub that off too.

Thanks for the idea.

My pleasure. That's why this forum is so great!

[chevypower]

We have been getting niter build up in the pans the last few boils so we have been filling the pans with permeate and then bringing it to a boil for awhile. The pans have been coming out looking very good.

[lew]

Not trying to steal this thread, but rather trying to add to it. for over 20 years we have fought trying to replacing filter press papers during a boil when the syrup doesn't want to filter well. this year really exasperated the situation when we rebuilt the arch and started making a little over 30 gallons of syrup an hour. We could only get 10-12 gallons of syrup through the press before it was full for the past few days. When trying to pull the press apart, of course it is very hot and of course there are no gloves to be found and you have no time to look for them. Also, without hosing down the press, papers like to stick and tear after the first tear down. So I decided to take the hose to the top of the press to cool off the rings so I could touch them. This in turn got the papers wet all the way around. Now I tear apart the press, the rings are warm, not hot, them papers pull right out without sticking and tearing, and life is as good as it gets. Still need to go fast, but no more burned fingers and no more pieces of paper stuck to the press.