How many taps to be profitable?

[WestWind]

I started with modest objectives but I find myself getting deeper and deeper; it certainly sucks you in! I know some of you sell bulk. Given today's environment, how many taps do you need to be profitable? With so many large operations getting started these days, how do you see that number evolving? And, although comfort and business seldom go together, are you comfortable with syrup prices holding, notwithstanding the current bad year?

[doocat]

3000 and profitable, but you have to work at it. My dad and I put a lot of hours in during the season that you don't really get back...We also built slow no loans just put money back in business.

[wnybassman]

My answer would be zero. lol

[raven4maple]

Those are interesting questions. Do you feel lucky?!

I've been watching maple business developements and considering turning my hobby into a business for some years now. Have resisted the urge so far. I'll likely be expanding some, slowly going from hobby to hobby business, but not borrowing money. Unless I give in to the urge and go "all out" though, I'll never be profitable at reasonable pay for my time.

Some thoughts:

These last three maple seasons have each been very different. Can anyone predict what next year will be like? Are all other projections guesses then?

With Quebec mostly controlling the bulk price, it has "made sense" lately (ie. loans can be had) for big players to buy mountainsides in the north woods, develop a sugar bush at warp speed, and sell bulk. They are unlikely to tell us where their profit line is, but had to convince their banks. They seem to go for 10-20+K taps the first year and continue to expand with goals in the 50-100K tap range. So these guys, buying land, all new equipment and building, and paying labor, have convinced banks of profitability in that 50-100K tap range, but are likely to keep expanding.

At a lower level, expansion is evident throughout my area. I visited nine local sugar houses on NH Maple Weekend, selected by driving distance. Three were just built, and two were on their second season.

Lately USA has been adding ~1 million taps a year. Some think this is a "bubble" that will pop, and others think the market will be grown by convincing folks to switch from crap (GMO corn syrup base) to real maple. It could go either way, but until I see a decent maple ad campaign I'm guessing (not betting) the syrup market crashes. Not guessing when though.

[jrmaple]

I guess it depends on what type of profit you are looking to get out of it and also where you're located; I'm in CT and averaging around $92 a gallon for retail, (that being said we don't bottle gallon containers unless we have a definite buyer and the price for a gallon would then be $65). I built my sugar shack using oak logs I cut and got rough cut timber from a local barn that was being put up and it was left over, so all I have invested in my shack is the roofing, (built it on a previous cement slab). For me, making a profit is easy in a year, but sure its not anything to make a living off of and plus its an enjoyable hobby and I'm not losing anything (unless it cuts into my regular job or school).

[DaveB]

I think there's a number of variables in what your asking but the very minimum would be about 10 if you're backyarder and have the right equipment and you're trying to make a few gallons instead of buying it. The value of the syrup should be worth more than it cost you to make. But I think you're talking about a profit as a way of life and even there I think there are variables. It depends on how much you need to live on and how you run your operation.

I burn wood as the fuel I use to make my syrup and it's a free commodity with the exception of my time and some gas/oil to cut and split it. I also "buy" sap by mostly tapping other peoples trees so in each of those agreements I have the upside. That leaves equipment that you need to replace on an annual basis like tubing, filters, etc.

For me, I've always thought that I could comfortably live on an annual income of about $45,000 if I own the place where I live. The lowest price I sell syrup for is $45 a gallon wholesale so that means that I would need to sell about 1,000 gallons (1,200 if you include taxes) for me to live off it. Since I sell some syrup for more than that retail, smaller units and as maple sugar, we'll use the 1,000 gallon mark for simplicity sake. If all of that sap was under vacuum, I'd expect that I could do that with 2,500 to 3,000 tap operation if everything is done right.

You also ask about prices holding and I would say yes. I can't see prices falling to where they were 10+ years ago.

[stewardsdairy]

You can make a profit, but it would take a lot of investment, time and resources to make a living on it. I tend to invest all profit and then some each year to expand and am sparing no expense on the equipment. I hope for it to be profitable in the 20-30 thousand dollar range when I retire in about 8 years, but right now it is a losing proposition. The trouble is when you expand everything costs, and then it leads to more. I really need to invest in an RO next year and then add more taps to justify the RO. This year has been chaos on the good runs with my full time teaching job. Luckily I have some help with friends and relatives, but I boiled until 2 last night and it looks like another of the same today. I would have made money last year if I hadn't expanded by 700 taps with a new vacuum pump and releaser that I set up this winter.

[blac]

What ever you want to make start out with double that, when you spend half quit....

[Yellzee]

I like the zero comment!

A lot of it depends on your time available to work for free!

I agree that it depends how you are defining profit... I probably made more clear profit with 40 buckets and old pan. My only cost every year was bottles and a new filter.

Now every year I'm buying more tubing, new taps, tweaking something, etc.

I sometimes think if you had time for 300 buckets re-using your taps every year and had an old evaporator you had inherited you are probably making way more "profit" than some of the much bigger guys. You really have no expenses except your bottles.

[Big_Eddy]

All depends on how you define profit.

If I don't count my time, wood, equipment investment, or fuel for the tractor and chainsaw then I make a profit every year from my 150 trees on buckets. I spend $300 -$500 a year on supplies including bottles, filters, hydrometers and other maple gear. I sell 60-100 litres a year to friends and acquantances at an average of ~$20 each. So total profit of ~ $1000-$1500 / yr from 150 trees or $10/tree. After 20+ yrs, I figure I've almost paid for my evaporator, tanks and sugar house with the proceeds.

If I count the 80hrs x 4 collectors + 50hrs x 1 stoker + 8hrs x 4 tappers, + bottling + washing buckets + .... that equates to ~$2/hr.

I could earn more per hour doing other things, but I choose to make $2/hr spending time with the family making syrup.

[KevinS]

Those are interesting questions. Do you feel lucky?!

I've been watching maple business developements and considering turning my hobby into a business for some years now. Have resisted the urge so far. I'll likely be expanding some, slowly going from hobby to hobby business, but not borrowing money. Unless I give in to the urge and go "all out" though, I'll never be profitable at reasonable pay for my time.

Some thoughts:

These last three maple seasons have each been very different. Can anyone predict what next year will be like? Are all other projections guesses then?

With Quebec mostly controlling the bulk price, it has "made sense" lately (ie. loans can be had) for big players to buy mountainsides in the north woods, develop a sugar bush at warp speed, and sell bulk. They are unlikely to tell us where their profit line is, but had to convince their banks. They seem to go for 10-20+K taps the first year and continue to expand with goals in the 50-100K tap range. So these guys, buying land, all new equipment and building, and paying labor, have convinced banks of profitability in that 50-100K tap range, but are likely to keep expanding.

At a lower level, expansion is evident throughout my area. I visited nine local sugar houses on NH Maple Weekend, selected by driving distance. Three were just built, and two were on their second season.

Lately USA has been adding ~1 million taps a year. Some think this is a "bubble" that will pop, and others think the market will be grown by convincing folks to switch from crap (GMO corn syrup base) to real maple. It could go either way, but until I see a decent maple ad campaign I'm guessing (not betting) the syrup market crashes. Not guessing when though.
I clearly follow your logic..
but I am left with one question in mind on your opine.
Are you considering the fast growth in the natural and locally produced demand in the average consumer in the USA today?
that does not mean that I think the maple industry can afford to not market the value of the product!
So I am not disagreeing with your point on that.. just wondering if that was factored in to your guess. :)

[Michael Greer]

In my first year, I borrowed 40 buckets, and partnered 50/50 with a friend with a sugarhouse. I sold a few gallons, made enough to buy 70 buckets of my own, and enjoyed the profits over waffles. Second year I tapped more trees, sold more syrup, and bought more buckets. The profits amounted to what we ate and gave to family. Third year I tapped even more trees wich I "rented" with a little syrup. I sold more syrup, bought more gear, and ate the profit. This pattern allowed me to grow with a small profit. In my fifth year now, I have started a business, and have spent quite a lot of money buying an evaporator, building a sugarhouse, and acquiring all the gear to outfit it. No matter how good this season is, I will not truly be profitable for a few more years. The investment I've made is reasonable though and all the parts will continue to serve me for a long time. A tax depreciation over the next decade or so will allow me to write off the initial expense over time. I'll need to sell about 600 gallons to get in the black again. Partnering with an existing sugarhouse is a great way to get started.

[RollinsOrchards]

Using a similar philosophy to Michael we have grown from 8 taps to 1100 taps in 5 years without debt. I have borrowed equipment where I could. Cut firewood out of the sugarbush to sell for maple tubing, and kept my eyes on the Mapletrader classifieds and local ads for reasonably priced maple stuff. For instance an evaporator came up here on mapletrader that was a lot bigger than i needed, but the price was something I couldn't pass up, and we had to grow to feed the new evaporator.

I couldn't have grown this fast without a steady supply of retail customers. Our orchard farmstand is a perfect fit for selling our own syrup. The downside is that the bulk of our syrup sales come in October, so the money spent to make the syrup is locked away for the summer.

[theguywiththename]

ill be fliping a profit on 45 this year

[spud]

I started with modest objectives but I find myself getting deeper and deeper; it certainly sucks you in! I know some of you sell bulk. Given today's environment, how many taps do you need to be profitable? With so many large operations getting started these days, how do you see that number evolving? And, although comfort and business seldom go together, are you comfortable with syrup prices holding, notwithstanding the current bad year?

It really is not a tap amount that makes you profitable. It's all about a persons spending habits. There are some smaller back yard operations that have $200.00+ dollars per tap invested. Some of the photos I see here on Trader show some very nice set-ups. For a lot of people sugaring is their hobby and they want all the newest equipment on the market. It can be a fun time of year for family and friends to hang out in the sugar house and pass the time of day. Now if a person is only thinking profit then he or she could go out and buy some very nice used equipment for the sugar house. Setting your woods up right and having high vacuum could allow you to make profit your first year sugaring (depending on how you sell your syrup).

Spud

[NTBugtraq]

I retired two years ago, and since that time I have made investments in things that will generate revenue. Profit is another animal entirely. Given that investments have little return these days, its not about holding onto money, its about getting some form of annual return. I have an annual amount of revenue I am trying to achieve, and my investments are leading towards that ability. My investment in my sugar shack and bush development is to that goal. I predict I can make up to $8k/yr from my 10k investment. So, this year, I am not profitable, next year, likely not, but...I will have some revenue every year from this one forward. Syrup is not my only revenue, and not all I produce from my bush (I don't sell cut trees, but I grow ****ake and oyster mushrooms, and have a 5000 sq. ft. vegetable farm, and another 3000 sq. ft. fruit farm). Anyway, the point is not to be profitable, but to get continued revenue.

Given that most investments aren't likely going to get you more then 1-2% return, getting annual revenue needs to be a goal.

Cheers,
Russ

[collinsmapleman2012]

It really is not a tap amount that makes you profitable. It's all about a persons spending habits. There are some smaller back yard operations that have $200.00+ dollars per tap invested. Some of the photos I see here on Trader show some very nice set-ups. For a lot of people sugaring is their hobby and they want all the newest equipment on the market. It can be a fun time of year for family and friends to hang out in the sugar house and pass the time of day. Now if a person is only thinking profit then he or she could go out and buy some very nice used equipment for the sugar house. Setting your woods up right and having high vacuum could allow you to make profit your first year sugaring (depending on how you sell your syrup).

Spud
amen spud, its all about how you spend your money and what you want out of your woods. I want to make a profit ,and eventually a living from sugaring, so I will do the best with what I have before expanding, its actually more profitable to do it right and well than to just have big numbers (until a certain point; i.e. 10,000 plus taps). I also believe that each producer needs to set their own individual goals as far as cost of production, production numbers, and expansion. For example, my goals for next year are 1800 taps, 15 gallons of sap OR .3 gallons of syrup per tap, and I have expansion goals of blowers on the evap, a filter press, and high vacuum. These goals should be reviewed on a per annum basis, and remember that the goals you set for your business should be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and timely. that, and to learn from whatever you can. some of the biggest things I learned this year came from observations, and its always good to look and see what you have overlooked before.

[VT_K9]

We make syrup primarily for family and give some to friends or people who have made a difference in our lives. In the last several 7-10 years we have taken a few gallons of the end of year syrup to Bascom's and sold it to them. Since 07 or so we have upgraded our tin 2x6 to a Leader WSE 2x6, sap puller, and this year a Hobby RO. This year we re-routed our lines to be inline with recommended vacuum setup and in the process picked up about 15-20 new taps. Some of the goals were to help make up for bad years (2012 was our year of 0 and previously we were in the low teens). This year was an odd year, but we are above 50 (38 was our previous record with a lot of wood burned).

While I know we could sell our syrup retail that would come with more challenges then we are ready for and want. We will continue to sell to Bascoms and re-invest into the sugarbush. Next year we are looking at a real vacuum, power to the sugar house (using a genny now), and adding about 150 new taps.

I am hopeful we can get to a point where we cover all operating costs of the sugarbush and possibly the taxes on the land using syrup sold to Bascoms.

Mike

[regor0]

Yep, I'm that guy with $200 plus per tap. Please don't tell the wife. I have the trees to get it down to to $2 a tap, I just haven't got them tapped yet.
I've made the decision I would rather have our money in sugaring equipment than in cash. I am about 3 years from doing this full time and have been investing heavily in getting ready. I don't and won't take out a loan and don't trust the state of affairs of our economy, so I would much rather have my cash turned into something I can use.
Everything I do anymore is focused on maple, mostly because I love doing it, but also because I see a value in having a commodity that you could sell or trade. So how many taps does it take to make a profit. I think, 10. take the sap from the 10, boil it down and sell it to your mom. She'll buy anything you've made, and quit!:lol: Just depends on what your in it for. Now I'll wait for a real business man to answer.

It really is not a tap amount that makes you profitable. It's all about a persons spending habits. There are some smaller back yard operations that have $200.00+ dollars per tap invested. Some of the photos I see here on Trader show some very nice set-ups. For a lot of people sugaring is their hobby and they want all the newest equipment on the market. It can be a fun time of year for family and friends to hang out in the sugar house and pass the time of day. Now if a person is only thinking profit then he or she could go out and buy some very nice used equipment for the sugar house. Setting your woods up right and having high vacuum could allow you to make profit your first year sugaring (depending on how you sell your syrup).

Spud

[GeneralStark]

It really is not a tap amount that makes you profitable. It's all about a persons spending habits. There are some smaller back yard operations that have $200.00+ dollars per tap invested. Some of the photos I see here on Trader show some very nice set-ups. For a lot of people sugaring is their hobby and they want all the newest equipment on the market. It can be a fun time of year for family and friends to hang out in the sugar house and pass the time of day. Now if a person is only thinking profit then he or she could go out and buy some very nice used equipment for the sugar house. Setting your woods up right and having high vacuum could allow you to make profit your first year sugaring (depending on how you sell your syrup). Spud

I definitely agree with this. It really isn't the number of taps that is the key and there are many other factors to consider. If you live pretty simply and don't have lots of expenses and have some extra cash to invest, you can set up a small profitable retail operation pretty easily. It also completely depends upon your business plan and types of markets you are going after. If you just want to sell bulk, you will need more taps and therefore more equipment to process. Your skill level is also a big factor. If you have to hire someone to do work for you, that changes everything.

In my case, my plan with my business has been to value add as much as possible so I can yield closer to 100$/gal. on average and maximize my sales revenue without a large operation. My plan is to get to about 1000 taps, most of which will be on my own land and some on neighbor's. For the first three years I was able to lease taps, and share equipment with friends in exchange for labor. I put up the tubing and did some buckets and this arrangement enabled me to make some syrup and get the sales side of my business set up. Unfortunately the syrup quality was always poor as the equipment was old and my friends tubing was old as well. SO, I would trade dark C syrup for good light to make my products.

This year, I used revenue from the business to put up a sugarhouse and set up the woods for 550 taps on land my wife and I purchased for a homestead. I also secured a low interest USDA loan for a new rig, vacuum pump, and two tanks. I already had several other key pieces of equipment from my previous setup. I was able to make 170 gallons of high quality syrup which I will easily be able to sell all of this year, mostly as value added products.

The other piece is how you market yourself and your syrup. Everyone likes a good story and many want to know where their food comes from, and some like to be involved in the process. This is a huge opportunity for sugarmakers. A large part of my business plan, and why I decided to buy a new rig and put up a fancier than most sugarhouse is because I want my customers to come see where their food is made. I use high yield techniques and high quality equipment to make the best product possible and I want to be able to assure my customers that that is the case.