New evap, sugar shack, and setup

[NTBugtraq]

Buying tomorrow either a CDL 18" x 5' drop flue, or 2' x 6' CDL from Atkinson's Maple in Guthrie, Ontario (great ppls). Anyway, a few questions if I may.

1. Drop vs. Raised. I have read a few threads, but it seems that some ppl seem to think that if raised, you should do drop tubes?? How can raised without drop tubes be argued to be better other than just via experience (and don't think I am discounting experience, but all the science seems to suggest drop tubes, or drop flues, expose more surface to heat in a smaller evap??) ig_Eddy's approach to answering with science would be great here.

2. I'm not getting an arch with a blower...can a blower be added to any arch? (most any?) Any considerations I should make should I want to add a blower next year?

3. I'm trying to keep fuel to a minimum, so I am thinking I need a storage tank to feed my input float valve. Preheaters seem to suggest they really offer benefits, but can they really take the place of a storage tank? I can rig my mainline pipe to a float, whether that floats in the preheater or the storage tank.

4. I plan to drip into a 16" x 16" propane finisher...bad idea? I already own the finisher and dial thermo...I expect like max 3 gallons of syrup a day...can I let that accumulate throughout the day into the finisher and then deal with that alone at the end of the day while the arch cools down?

Hoping to buy the evap and all bits and pieces tomorrow, got help with me, we build the sugar shack and brick the evap by Saturday...sound unrealistic? Really basic shack, just enough to keep the wind out and store the wood. First burn on Sunday would be the plan.

Oh, one last thing, after bricking, if I have a high-hoe, can I lift the bricked evap without cracking all the mortar?

Cheers,
Russ

[SPILEDRIVER]

raised flue with drop tubes???? man you got me confused.....

[NTBugtraq]

Well, I have to apologize. I have tried to get drop flues explained to me by online research, and I admit, I'm still not clear what they are. I assumed that drop flue pans had chambers that dropped below the "bottom" of the flat pan, dropping into the area that the arch pushes air through. Raised flues, to me, were flat pans where the entire area of the bottom of the pan was flat on top of the hot air from the arch. Raised flue pans with drop tubes, I thought, were flat pans with holes drilled in the bottom and tubing welded to those holes, allowing the sap to go down that tubing and sitting there, in the space between the bottom of the pan and the arch.

Tomorrow I will see drop flue versus raised flue, in person, for the first time. My apologies, but someone should really post some pictures of the difference because a lot of research hasn't let me understand the difference.

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

1 raised flue you can drain with ease.

2 blower could be added to most any arch with modifications for fairly cheep.

3 a head tank is a must to keep a constant flow and the need some head pressure to work the float. To save money skip the pre heater for now.

4 I had the se idea with a finisher then a filter pan but was told not to. You will pull finished syrup right off the evaporator just filter it then later adjust density and can it.

5 use ceramic blanket!!!! On the whole arch then just brick where the wood will be in contact with the blanket.

I learned a lot off the site and from other sugar makers everything they say is true these are the pointers I was given and they were all right.

Scott


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[NTBugtraq]

Chicopee...so a ceramic blanket put into the entire raw arch first, then only brick where the wood will go? Ok, will check on that.

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

Yup there is 1" and 2" the 2" is better but more money under a raised flue have it 1/2 in from the flies to force the heat into them


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[CampHamp]

How can raised without drop tubes be argued to be better other than just via experience (and don't think I am discounting experience, but all the science seems to suggest drop tubes, or drop flues, expose more surface to heat in a smaller evap??)

Some people prefer raised flue pans because: (1) You have a float dedicated to each pan and can boil with different levels in each pan, (2) you cannot damage the flues by accident when you put logs in (they are up above your firebox area), (3) the syrup pan cannot back-flow into the sap pan, and (4) drainage (as mentioned).




2. I'm not getting an arch with a blower...can a blower be added to any arch? (most any?) Any considerations I should make should I want to add a blower next year?

You should be able to add a blower to any arch, but confirm how this is achieved from your dealer before paying. Make sure there is space under the arch for a unit that would connect to the back of the ash box.



3. I'm trying to keep fuel to a minimum, so I am thinking I need a storage tank to feed my input float valve. Preheaters seem to suggest they really offer benefits, but can they really take the place of a storage tank? I can rig my mainline pipe to a float, whether that floats in the preheater or the storage tank.

I think you're asking if you should have a pre-heater type of container that feeds your back pan to save on wood. With the units you're looking at (at least with the 2x6) most "preheaters" I see are hoods with piping running within them to heat with the steam from the back pan. You can always add a pre-heater next year after you use it for this season.



4. I plan to drip into a 16" x 16" propane finisher...bad idea? I already own the finisher and dial thermo...I expect like max 3 gallons of syrup a day...can I let that accumulate throughout the day into the finisher and then deal with that alone at the end of the day while the arch cools down?

Many who do not use filter press systems will draw syrup off through cone filters into a pot or pail as finished syrup and then pour it into a finisher at the end of the day to warm it back up and bottle from. If your finisher is easy to move and can hang a cone filter inside, then the way you said might be better (keep the spigot clean, though).



Hoping to buy the evap and all bits and pieces tomorrow, got help with me, we build the sugar shack and brick the evap by Saturday...sound unrealistic?

Working fast can be dangerous - take time with your power tools and lifting things over head... and take a few pictures for posterity and to show us your work.



Oh, one last thing, after bricking, if I have a high-hoe, can I lift the bricked evap without cracking all the mortar?

I used a tractor with forks. No sharp drops and pack something in the firebox to keep the sides from falling inwards. Some people brick all the way back under the back pan to make cleaning easier - but you could always decide to do that next year right on top of this year's blanket.

[NTBugtraq]

So just returned with my new 18" x 5' CDL drop flue evap. Quick question. I have 56 x 2" bricks and 4 x 1" bricks to install. They told me the fire cement becomes useless if it freezes. Given the temperatures are at or below freezing, can I use the fire cement in these temperatures? Assuming I pre-layout and pre-cut the bricks, I suspect it won't take me more than 30 minutes to put the fire cement on the bricks and re-lay them.

Also, they say to soak the bricks in water before laying them. Will there be a problem overnight when it goes below freezing again? Might the bricks crack if they freeze?

Cheers,
Russ

[BRL]

Do you have a little propane or electric heater? Cover the arch with wood and run heater in the fire box for a day or two.

[NTBugtraq]

If I don't put the fire cement in for this season, what am I risking?

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

This should probably be in another thread, but since this build is "hopefully" going to go so quickly, I figured posting it here wouldn't hurt.

Today was spent mostly with picking up the new evap and unloading the truck. But the sugar shack building materials arrived, and here's the result of today's efforts;

9474

Before you ask, the shack is being built on what is normally a grassed area next to my driveway. There are no supports for the 4x4 corners, its just going to sink in and self-level for this year.

Tomorrow the front wall, with 4' door, and the roof (galvanized on 2x6 rafters) goes on. Also tomorrow, installation of the storage tank and, hopefully, bricking of the arch and plumbing the evap. Its an aggressive build, I know...;-]

For now, the plan is to have the door side of the arch lie directly on the frozen ground (which won't stay frozen long) and the back legs will sit on a 2x4 that runs to both of them. Those back legs can be leveled with a wrench, so hoping that will allow for enough play to keep the pans level. I may pick up a couple of patio stones tomorrow to put under the firebox...but not sure it will be needed.

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Ok, so sugar shack is all done except for the doors, which I'm in no rush for. Meanwhile, got stumped on the brick layout for the evaporator, never imagined it was going to entail so much brick cutting and shaping...so that will have to wait until Monday to get the proper tools. 65 gallon storage tank is now ready to accept sap, at least, so if I can just get the snow to drop a few inches my mainline, on a wire 4' above ground, might come out of the snow and thaw completely. Here's some pics.

9491
65 gallon storage tank mounted, arch located, leveled, stack point in ceiling located

9492
end of day today, doorway created. Tomorrow, a bush cord of elm shows up to stock the sugar shack.

Fun, fun, fun...

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

I expect to have 70+ gallons in the morning. The arch is nearly finished being bricked, should be done by 10:00am. Bush chord arrived today, so I'm stocked with wood. Ergo, hopefully first fire tomorrow morning.

I will say up front, we did not use fire cement with the bricking. I'm at a loss as to why its desperately needed, especially since the arch distributor already said I didn't need fireboard and/or roxol. Since I plan to move the arch after this season, not cementing the bricks makes it easier to move it.

Couple of questions.

I have no idea how hot is going to get beside the arch. My shack is only 12' x 12', so there's not a ton of space. I need to find a place for my 16 x 16 finisher with a propane tank...how far away from the arch should the tank be? Also, I have a coffee-pot like filtering urn, does that need to be a distance away too? Finally, finished syrup in plastic bottles, could they be harmed by the heat?

Cheers,
Russ

[Michael Greer]

It looks like you're al set up on a layer of ice.....it's going to melt, and things are going to sink and sway. Get a big pry-bar and something to stuff under the corners in a hurry. Your evaporator will not function properly if it's out of level. You're really going to have to keep an eye on it, and that's just one more thing added to a long list of stuff to pay attention to. I'll wager that next season you'll have a nice concrete slab in place. In the mean time, stay sharp.

[Michael Greer]

Set the finisher up at the house and do it later. You've got too many things to take care of at once.

[NTBugtraq]

Michael, the melt has already been anticipated, but thanks for the warning. I have taken your advice to finish at the house. To that end, I am in the process of my very first boil. I put 20 gallons of sap into the pans, which brought the level up to 3". Higher than I wanted, but I am attempting to be cautious in this first boil.

I noticed that the first point to start to boil was where the drop flue pan touches the finishing pan. Slowly, the drop flue pan is boiling more towards the stack. The 2 channel finishing pan has not yet started to boil (we're about 1 hour into this first boil). I have the flue on the arch wide open at this point, assuming that I need as much heat as possible to warm up all the stone??

Some pics.

9525

9526

Oh, I bought a 65 gallon used cherry barrel when I bought the arch. It had a few creases in it, and when looked at from the inside you could see light passing through those cracks. I just assumed the plastic had stretched and the dye had been removed...but alas, when the tank got nearly half way full a leak appeared. I washed the thing out before using it, but I should have filled the entire thing to be sure there were no leaks...so, buy used, be warned. A new 100 gallon container is on its way.

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Another question. I just checked and the setup has managed to boil 1" of water of the 3" initially put in, in one hour. That sounds pretty good. I have ~40 more gallons of sap in 5 gallon pails, and would like to get that processed first, so I just added another 5 gallons. Slowly, but all in one go. I realize this isn't going to help establishing my gradient, but other than that, is there a reason not to be adding at this rate? The float box is connected, but I dislike having these pails lying around full of sap.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

Russ
If you have only boiled off an inch in an hour you're not firing fast enough or small enough. 1" is 17l or about 4 gals in an hour. I've been running my 20x64 home built (shamelessly modelled on the evap you have) at 12-16 Cdn gals an hour since 11 this morning. 80 gallons in 5 hrs including a break for lunch. I fire every 7 mins and add 10-15 pieces all less than 2" dia. The whole rig is boiling end to end 2 firings after lighting or 15 mins after lighting. I run 1 1/2" deep typically.

If you want to pour via pail add 1 gal every time you fire as opposed to 5 every half hour

[NTBugtraq]

Eddy,

Firstly, so we speak the same numbers, I talk American...e.g. U.S. gallons (3.98L) and F...;-]

I put 20 gallons in initially which brought the level in the float pan to 3". That's 6.66 gallons in an inch, or 26.5L. That much was boiled off in an hour also. I have been firing every 15 minutes, and experimenting with just how much wood can fit into the chamber. Unfortunately, not all of my pieces are as small as yours, and I currently can't get to my splitter...so I have been putting in pieces 18" long but 10" diameter, just to see what would happen. Since this is, after all, my first day, experimentation is very much in order...;-]

You're able to add 10-15 pieces of wood every 7 minutes? There's no way my wood is burning that quickly, but I do have my flue completely open. There is no smoke coming out of the chimney, which tells me I am burning at a high enough temperature?? But again, I have been using these bigger pieces throughout this first burn, which I won't be using again until I can split them.

Also, as I said, I started at 3" and have topped up to 3" every time I added sap. I had 55 gallons in buckets that I wanted to use up first. Once that is all in, I will be setting the float to 2" for a little while, then eventually down to 1.5" as you do once I know I can do what I need to do to prevent burning. As it is, I have already put 40 gallons in and I am at 2.25" right now, so I'm not unhappy.

I don't sit in the shack the whole time, but go back and forth to the house as a form of exercise. Every 15 minutes I go up and down 2 flights of stairs and back and forth to the shack. As a very over-weight 55-yr-old, I'm thrilled, but exhausted, but this regiment every 15 minutes. But who knows, within a few days I may very well be able to take it down to every 7 minutes...;-] Here's hoping.

In any event, I got no new sap today...and with only 30 gallons or so in my storage tank it will be interesting to see whether I even fire tomorrow.

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Hope this isn't a duplicate post.

The instructions say to make sure my wood in the arch chamber is kept 6" away from the door. I have been doing this. Meanwhile, the final chamber of the finishing tray is basically directly over this 6" open space. So far, I have not had that final chamber boil yet. Is that typical? I have had every other chamber boiling, just not that last one. Since I started today with all sap, is this part of "establishing the grade" in the pans?

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

I would expect every section to boil. You want the front to boil a touch less than the others to reduce the touchiness of the rig but it needs to be boiling. With mine, I pull my wood forward to the door but I have had my uninsulated door glowing. I expect the instructions are there to protect the door.

I hear what you say about the trips back and forth to the house but be warned that once you have your pans sweetened that front pan can go from not yet to waaaay past in a lot less than 15 mins.

You'll get to know it well enough soon. Congratulations and have fun!

[NTBugtraq]

Waiting for a callback now from the distributor. I am sure its the level I have been keeping the sap in the pans that is my primary issue...they were the ones who told me I could fire every 20 minutes. I will, however, start leaving the wood closer to the door. I have nothing near it to fear it glowing...although I have to say I hope it doesn't. I suspect the instructions are there not to protect the door, but to protect the manufacturer from law suits...;-]

FWIW, I plan on drawing from the final channel in my evap finishing pan, into a 16 x 16 finishing pan. That will then be brought up to the house periodically and finished on a propane 60,000 BTU burner. My goal is to find some small crack in the draw off valve that let's it drip from the final channel on the evap at a rate that makes it dang close...not too close, but not too far...It's a balancing act, I know, so I have a second SS container to drip into while I finish the syrup. Hey, its all theory at this point. At the very least, my setup will let me take the syrup off the evap at too low a temp, but take enough to prevent the evap from burning it. All that costs me is more propane.

Hey, even if it doesn't sound it, trust me, I appreciate your great advice.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

The way I work is to boil one day and finish another. When I'm boiling I don't stray far from the evaporator and I set a timer for my 7 minute feedings. Feed wood, check front pan, check rear pan, check sap level in tank, get next armload of wood ready, sit down and read for 3-4 mins. Repeat. I record the sap levels in my tank at the top and bottom of the hour. I usually draw off about once an hour and about a half gallon at a time. I have a few stainless 20l pots that I draw into. I skip a firing when it's time to draw then stoke it back up after. With an evaporator this size the continual draw isn't realistic.

As for wood, I keep to my 7 minute cycle adding as much wood as seems to have burned. I've found my evaporator runs better with a smaller hot fire in the bottom as opposed to stuffing it full to the top. Otherwise I get too many coals building up blocking airflow. Even still after half a day I usually have to clear some coals and ash from below to allow for proper airflow. I empty all ash before each days boil.

If I need a break I time it for right after a draw and I usually add an extra couple of gallons of sap and one or two larger logs to keep it idling over lunch.

[theguywiththename]

10"!!! makes an axe a pretty cheap investment at this point in time. i just finished spliting the rest of my ash by axe while boiling tonight. good use of time. had of planed a bit better i would have moved the 3pt hitch wood spliter out of the elements so i could use it now. still git a good 3 feet of snow before i can see it.

[Michael Greer]

I think I would rather draw off into a pail, and carry that to the finisher pan. Carrying that pan will give you a bab back in no time. Two pails are easier to carry than one.

[NTBugtraq]

I am concerned that if I draw off into a plastic pail I won't get all of the syrup as I can't heat the pail. The only SS container I have, other than the finishing pan, is my coffee urn which I will be using to filter and bottle with. I think if I only put a couple of inches of syrup in the finishing pan it shouldn't be too difficult to carry up and down the stairs.

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Well, good news, I started my fire at 8:30am, and within 15 minutes the flue pan was in full boil. By 9:00am, the final channel in the finishing pan was boiling. Now, 1hr and 15mins after starting the fire, I've boiled off 13 U.S. gals. I've kept the size of the pieces going in the arch smaller (although I have thrown in a couple of 4" dia pieces, on top of a raging fire, and it hasn't seemed to drop the boil). I've also kept the wood closer to the door, which I think is what let the final channel come to a boil.

Bad news is I have ~ 30 gals left in my storage container, and no new sap flowing yet. When I get to 20 gals, I will stop firing. I don't think I can pull anything off to finish at that point, so still no syrup. But, at least things are working more the way I expect them to now.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

Russ - that's great news and right in line with what I would be expecting. I push about 80-100 gals through before I get the first syrup of the season running at 1 1/2". Deeper will take more, but not as much more as you might expect.

Sounds like the wood size has made a big difference which is also expected.

I stop firing "normally" at 10 gallons then fire carefully until I hit 0. I pour in my 5 gal "oh crap" pail with the last wood. It will come up to a boil before the fire is out. After you stop firing and the boil stops in the syrup pan, close the valve between the syrup and flue pans to prevent mixing. My flue pan tends to continue to boil for longer and as the level drops, it backfeeds from the syrup pan to maintain the level. Once the flue pan stops boiling, close the feed to / from the float box to prevent raw (unsterilized) sap flowing in. Assuming that you will have more sap within a day or two, leave it full and ready for the next boil. Some folks cover their pans - if you do, wait until it has cooled or you will have condensation drips from whatever cover you use back into the pan.

I use a stainless pail from Princess Auto, and a couple of Stainless Stock Pots from Cdn Tire. Currently I have 2 pots both filled with draw-off syrup, to be checked for density, filtered and bottled tonight. They are pretty cheap and I think you will want to invest in some. I've seen other producers draw off into a filter/canner for a first filtering, then pour from there into their finisher and then back into the filter/canner with a new orlon for final filtering. Whatever works best for you.

[NTBugtraq]

I needed to find out how much more sap the pans would draw after my last firing. I last fired at 9:45am, and by 10:45am there was no more steam coming off the pans. In that hour, the float drew another 9 gallons from my tank while still leaving 1.5" in the pans. . So your estimate of 10 gallons seems right for me too. I don't have a valve between the pans, but it came with long handled stoppers that fit so I used one to stop sap leaving the flue pan into the tube between the pans. Not sure where I'd use the second one thought...??

Doh, of course I have SS stock pots too, hadn't thought about those (despite using them last year for finishing...haha). So yeah, I will definitely use those to transfer to the finishing pan, allowing me to leave it up on the deck.

Still waiting to learn about drawing off. My plan at the moment is to use the thermo on the front pan, and when it gets to +6F, draw off. My thinking is that I will draw until I see the thermo change to +5F...and see how much that gets me. Once I've managed that, I will probably then draw off at +7F in future.

Then will come figuring out how much a filter can hold so I'll know when to fire the finishing pan...fun fun fun...

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

My plan at the moment is to use the thermo on the front pan, and when it gets to +6F, draw off. My thinking is that I will draw until I see the thermo change to +5F...and see how much that gets me. Once I've managed that, I will probably then draw off at +7F in future.


Cheers,
Russ

+6F is way too soon. Nowhere near syrup and you're going to be boiling forever on your finisher. You want to get close to or at syrup, but for a first time not too far past. Take it to +7. Trust me - 5 more minutes on the evaporator is way better than an hour in front of the finisher. It's hard to boil in the finisher - the level is deeper and the syrup keeps wanting to foam up and jump out. You're continually turning the gas up and down to speed it up and slow it down.

I see the thermo ports in your pans, but no thermometer. I assume you will be borrowing the one from the finisher or using a digital. Do you have a hydrometer or a way to calibrate your thermometer? The +7F is relative to today's boiling temperature of water (aka the sap pan) and will vary day to day. Without a hydrometer, insert the thermometer in the sap pan and set it to 0, then install it in the syrup pan and take off at +7.5F. With a hydrometer, check the density as it gets close to the first draw and when it is syrup, note today's take off temperature and draw off each time it gets there.

I have the same filter/canner I think you now have. Can help you through that part too.

[NTBugtraq]

I'm confused. When I did batch evaporating on my stove (which I did with 5 gallons earlier this year), once it was 218 it didn't take long at all to get to 219, certainly not an hour. Just how much did you think I would be doing in that finisher at one time? I was thinking I might be finishing 2 gals at a time, made up of several draws from the evap, which would be equal to 2" in the finisher. I had planned to put the pot I draw into on top of the front pan between draws to keep the near-syrup hot (after my first draw of course). This would let me finish and bottle in bunches, so I'm not trying to constantly do that. Why is this a bad idea? BTW, in case I didn't say this already, my burner for the finisher is 60,000 BTU.

I have a 3" dial thermo that I can adjust to the daily boiling point (which I did as you described). At the time I took the picture it was in the finisher, but its on the final channel in the front pan now. I also have a Hydrotherm and cup, which I planned to use to tell when the syrup is done in the finisher.

I have 3 Orlon cone filters, and 12 woven cone prefilters. Any idea what kind of flow rate I can expect (I'm assuming I will be washing them every night).

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

At 2" in the finisher should not be an issue. I usually do 15l in a 20l pot so a lot deeper. Bottling a bunch a once is the way to do it.

I can get 2 batches of 15l filtered with 4 pre filters and one Orlon if filtered hot and one batch right after the other. Rinse the Orlon with hot sap after you're all done then very hot water. Never squeeze or wring it.

[NTBugtraq]

Phew, thanks Eddy, I was worried. Last question (I think) for now. Once its in the coffee urn, filtered, I could pour that into bottles at room temp all day long, right? I have a paint stripper that I thought I would use to get most of the last of the syrup out. IOWs, I could wait until I have a nearly full urn before I bottle, as long as the filter isn't touching the top of the syrup in the urn...sound like a plan?

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

Nope. It is important that you bottle hot. Pour it in the filter a few gallons a time and them bottle until it stops dripping. Lift the lid and remove the inner pre filter and start bottling again until no more comes out. I can tell about 500ml ahead of running out by the way it flows into the bottle. Then take a break and clean up. Half an hour later they may be a bit more in the bottom which I pour into the fridge bottle.

If you wait it will cool and then you will need to reheat thereby causing more nitre to precipitate out requiring another pass through the filter.

[NTBugtraq]

So I have now boiled sap in my new pans for a total of 12 hours, and still nothing above the boiling point of water. That seems like a lot of boiling for no draw, but I appreciate there's sweetening going on and I have botched the firing a couple of times (meaning the boil was lost a couple of times for 15 minutes or so each time). Is this amount of time normal for the first ever draw from a drop flue 18" x 5' rig?

Also, what do you do about the frozen line between your storage tank and your float box? I used my handy weed killing torch to gently melt the ice in the tube, all the time worrying about melting it...is that the best way to go? I was worried about leaving the arch to warm up the shack to thaw it. Took me maybe 15 mins of torch time to get the tube flowing.

Cheers,
Russ

[Yooper Kevin]

Russ, I have the same evap & normally don't get a draw my first day of boiling (10 to 12 Hours). Usually though, the thermo will get to +3 or +4.....After I get a draw on day 2, I will draw off every couple hours and get a half gallon or so at a time. I also have the same issue with the frozen line feed line in the morning....I use a hair dryer to thaw it but its a pain.....Let me know if you figure something better out!
So I have now boiled sap in my new pans for a total of 12 hours, and still nothing above the boiling point of water. That seems like a lot of boiling for no draw, but I appreciate there's sweetening going on and I have botched the firing a couple of times (meaning the boil was lost a couple of times for 15 minutes or so each time). Is this amount of time normal for the first ever draw from a drop flue 18" x 5' rig?

Also, what do you do about the frozen line between your storage tank and your float box? I used my handy weed killing torch to gently melt the ice in the tube, all the time worrying about melting it...is that the best way to go? I was worried about leaving the arch to warm up the shack to thaw it. Took me maybe 15 mins of torch time to get the tube flowing.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

Russ - I posted a separate thread on sweetening the pans for my rig. It usually takes me about 100 gallons of sap before I get the first syrup off. You are running deeper, so probably another 50 gallons for you. If you are plugging the pipe between the pans overnight and allowing the rig to get back up to a boil before removing the plug in the morning, then you should be starting to get a visible difference between the syrup pan and the flue pan. Don't be too alarmed. As long as sap is going in and steam is coming off, syrup will come out eventually.

As to why the boiling point doesn't seem to be changing - the boiling temperature curve is not linear, so the rise will happen faster as you get closer and closer to syrup.

Frozen lines. I have quick couplers at both ends of my hoses and I disconnect and drain all tubing overnight if I think it might freeze. I keep an electric heat gun in my sugar house that I can use for thawing out valves. I have also drilled the downstream side of the ball in each ball valves so that the ball will drain when closed and not form an ice plug. In the morning, I connect my hoses and attempt to open the valve. If it won't turn easily, I hit the metal valve body for a few minutes with the heat gun. Once it opens, my first step is to fill a pail with sap and set is beside the evap for emergencies. Then I light the fire. If I do get an ice blockage in a hose, I use boiling sap poured in the end to push it through. I do keep a propane torch in the sugar house (for starting the fire) but I won't use it for thawing anything out - lesson learned the hard way.

One boil earlier this season, I struggled with ice plugging my float valve. It was minus 10, and the sap in the tank had ice crystals in it. It would flow out of the tank and through the hose ok, but the crystals would collect at the float valve and block the flow. The only solution was to keep the "oh crap" pail handy and watch it carefully. Any time the trickle sound stopped, I'd go hit it with the heat gun again until the blockage thawed.

[theguywiththename]

what about a water line heater like this one http://m.homedepot.ca/product/ProductDetails.aspx?productid=909328&lang=EN&eid=google-product-ext|google-pla|909328 ? no worying about frozen valves and if i rember corectly from when we were looking at the for cattle, they have a auto temperature shut off.

[NTBugtraq]

Thanks, theguywiththename, but I don't have power in the sugar shack yet.

Meanwhile, great sap day today so been boiling since the sap started running at 12:30pm. I'm a bit concerned, I haven't drawn anything off still. At one point, my dial thermo said we were at 7.5F above boiling, so I did a draw into my hdryotherm cup. The hydrotherm said it was way below 65.8 brix?? Now I did not warm the hydrotherm before using it, but surely if I leave it in the sap it would adjust itself...no?

I normally fix my boiling point on the dial thermo by swishing it around in the boiling sap nearest the float box. I decided I would check that calibration against water boiling on my stove...no difference. So I'm confused, how does one keep a hydrometer in warm water out in the bush? If it can't adjust its readings when left sitting in hot nearsyrup (or hot syrup), what use is it?

Also, the level in my flue pan is ~1.5", but the level in my finishing pan on the evap is 2"+...the two pans are level and I assume have the same bottoms (which both sit on the arch), is this the gradient being established?

I also have a problem that when I fire, the temp in the final channel in the finishing pan drops down (it is, after all, nearest the fire door), but if I fire every 7 minutes, the sap doesn't recover the temperature loss...

Finally, I have a big gap in my embers in the fire chamber. It is right in front of the door, from about half-way down to the grates. I don't see embers under the grates, it just seems that area is being turned to ash and then left void. Since the new logs are going on top, there's always some wood above this void. I try and find little pieces of wood to keep filling it, but almost all my wood is 18" long...???

Good, but frustrating, day...;-]

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Russ - I posted a separate thread on sweetening the pans for my rig. It usually takes me about 100 gallons of sap before I get the first syrup off. You are running deeper, so probably another 50 gallons for you. If you are plugging the pipe between the pans overnight and allowing the rig to get back up to a boil before removing the plug in the morning, then you should be starting to get a visible difference between the syrup pan and the flue pan. Don't be too alarmed. As long as sap is going in and steam is coming off, syrup will come out eventually.

I'm trying to be patient...;-] But for example, my thermo will be getting close to +7F and then all of a sudden it will drop to +4F. I didn't open the fire door, so I have to assume it was more sap from the 2nd finishing chamber into the last (where the thermo is). This happens frequently...


Frozen lines. I have quick couplers at both ends of my hoses and I disconnect and drain all tubing overnight if I think it might freeze. I keep an electric heat gun in my sugar house that I can use for thawing out valves. I have also drilled the downstream side of the ball in each ball valves so that the ball will drain when closed and not form an ice plug. In the morning, I connect my hoses and attempt to open the valve. If it won't turn easily, I hit the metal valve body for a few minutes with the heat gun. Once it opens, my first step is to fill a pail with sap and set is beside the evap for emergencies. Then I light the fire. If I do get an ice blockage in a hose, I use boiling sap poured in the end to push it through. I do keep a propane torch in the sugar house (for starting the fire) but I won't use it for thawing anything out - lesson learned the hard way.

I've gotta get power to my sugar shack, or replace the plastic pieces with metal so I can hit them with the torch. Right now its not ideal, but working so far. The quick connects really sound like a great idea. Do you have those in large diameter (my float hose is 1")...or did you drop the line down to garden hose size?

One thing I did do was add an outlet to the bottom of my storage tank. Now it can be drained completely (unlike leaving nearly 10 gals below the outlet). Might help forcing ice out of the way...I gotta add some way to fill up that "OMG" bucket.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

At one point, my dial thermo said we were at 7.5F above boiling, so I did a draw into my hdryotherm cup. The hydrotherm said it was way below 65.8 brix?? Now I did not warm the hydrotherm before using it, but surely if I leave it in the sap it would adjust itself...no?

I normally fix my boiling point on the dial thermo by swishing it around in the boiling sap nearest the float box. I decided I would check that calibration against water boiling on my stove...no difference. So I'm confused, how does one keep a hydrometer in warm water out in the bush? If it can't adjust its readings when left sitting in hot nearsyrup (or hot syrup), what use is it?


I have a glass jar that is about 2" shorter than my hydrotherm. I fill it with hot sap and when I remove the hydrotherm from the test cup, I place it in the jar. Keeps it hot and dissolves some of the syrup. When it cools off, I dump it back in the flue pan and refill. Once I'm getting close, I fill the cup and test it, leaving the hydro in the syrup until I'm ready to try again. Pull it out, dump, refill, test again.

Little known secret - your hydrotherm is also a hydrometer. Next time you are checking your syrup that is ready to take off, make a mental note of which line the hydrotherm is floating at. For a quick check, place it in, let it float. If way below the noted line, boil some more. If at or above, let the thermometer catch up and take an exact reading.


Also, the level in my flue pan is ~1.5", but the level in my finishing pan on the evap is 2"+...the two pans are level and I assume have the same bottoms (which both sit on the arch), is this the gradient being established?


This is sap evaporating faster than the float and interconnecting pipes can balance the levels. I have the same thing happen but my whole evaporator will drop 1/2" when boiling hard while the float struggles to keep up. If your flue pan is shallower than the syrup pans though, that means that no sap is going to flow into the syrup pans until the evaporation rate drops off and the levels stabilize. You want to try to get more heat under the syrup pan if you can. Otherwise you'll be a long time getting to that first draw.



I also have a problem that when I fire, the temp in the final channel in the finishing pan drops down (it is, after all, nearest the fire door), but if I fire every 7 minutes, the sap doesn't recover the temperature loss...

Finally, I have a big gap in my embers in the fire chamber. It is right in front of the door, from about half-way down to the grates. I don't see embers under the grates, it just seems that area is being turned to ash and then left void. Since the new logs are going on top, there's always some wood above this void. I try and find little pieces of wood to keep filling it, but almost all my wood is 18" long...???


The hole in the embers is normal - that's where most of the air is coming in and you are getting faster and more complete combustion there. Just add wood normally. Most folks add wood criss-cross or diagonally left this time, right next time.

7 minutes works for me with my arch and my wood. Sometimes I add a whole armload, sometimes only a few pieces. Depends on the wood type and size and how fast it is burning. I rarely fill the arch more than half full. Once boiling, my front section never stops. You might want to try firing at different rates and seeing if filling the arch works better than a few pieces in the bottom.

[NTBugtraq]

Eddy,

I realized, while cleaning my pans, that my flue pan "bottom", the point at the top of the drop flues, is actually .5" above the base of the front pan. Don't know why, but the two outside channels that lead to the first flue and from the last flue are actually angled at nearly 45 degrees.

Cheers,
Russ

[Big_Eddy]

I'm trying to be patient...;-] But for example, my thermo will be getting close to +7F and then all of a sudden it will drop to +4F. I didn't open the fire door, so I have to assume it was more sap from the 2nd finishing chamber into the last (where the thermo is). This happens frequently...


Not sure about the fluctuating thermometer. Is it fully submerged in the syrup? If the syrup is boiling and the thermometer is immersed in it, not sure why the temperature would drop. Even if there is some influx of less concentrated sap, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Are you seeing the syrup pan level fluctuating up and down? Only thing I can think of is that the thermometer is not fully submerged in the syrup or the pan is foaming and you have air / steam confusing the thermo reading.



The quick connects really sound like a great idea. Do you have those in large diameter (my float hose is 1")...or did you drop the line down to garden hose size?


I use camlock fasteners. I think mine are 1 1/2" but they come smaller and larger.

[NTBugtraq]

So, had a good day yesterday. Decent sap flow, and a really good boil. Damper is only open 1 notch, and I have a vigorous boil across both pans, front to back. Running 1" in the flue pan, 1.5" in the syrup pan. There's no foam to speak of. Some very thin, 1/4", white foam forms at the back of the flue pan occasionally, and I hit it with a bit of defoamer. I spent the entire day at the arch, looking at it every few minutes, firing every 10 mins or less. I re-split a couple of face cords of my elm to make sure it wouldn't cause much of a drop in boil rate when firing. Here's some pictures of the sap from different places in the pans.

Raw Sap
9625

Sap from just outside the float pan, at the front of the flue pan, where the boil is typically most vigorous
9626

Sap from the back of the flue pan
9627

Sap from the middle of the first syrup pan channel
9628

Sap from the last syrup pan channel just outside the draw-off tap
9629

Its been suggested that I get a better feel for what my boiling sap looks like. I have to say, that is very hard to do when looking through steam with glasses on, just as taking a picture of boiling sap is impossible for me (the lense fogs up in 1 second)...and even looking at it in a ladle is hard, hence the pyro.

I was up to +3F last night when I shut down, so hopefully today we get some syrup. I'll be trying for small draw-offs frequently this time.

Cheers,
Russ

[NTBugtraq]

Folks,

I haven't boiled for several days, and the sap in the pans is starting to look the same color throughout the flue pan (I can only block between the flue and syrup pans, nowhere else). I'm worried, especially since its also fairly caramel-ly colored in the float box. The sugar content is currently around 40 brix in the syrup pan, and ~20 brix in the flue pan (that's what it was when I shut them down last, I will re-check before I fire them up again.)

Should I start up by adding 1/2" of fresh sap to the flue pan? I want to make sure I don't burn it. I'm assuming the gradient has settled and am worried about what is in the bottom of the drop flues when I start it up again.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Russ