BUSCH Rotary claw dry pump?

[spud]

I am looking to buy another vacuum pump for my new set-up. I was alway's told the Busch rotary claw pump was the best. CDL no longer is selling this pump. I am now being told that if any sap should get into this pump the claws will expand and kill the pump for good. I have always been told that there is no fixing this pump once it dies. How many of you Traders use this kind of pump? What do you think of it. I thought Dr. Tim once said that PMRC uses these pumps and they swear by them (although i might be wrong). I like the fact that is uses less power and is small and compact yet giving very high vacuum. I really like the fact that it is not oil or water cooled. What are you're thoughts everyone? Thanks in advance.

Spud

[Dave Y]

spud, I bought a 51 cfm Busch pump for this season. So far it has performed flawlessly. Mine has a vfd and a single phase to three phase converter running it along with a Johnson temp control. It is true that you should not get water in one. However, there are ways to ensure that you do not. I have a manual and electric moisture traps ahead of my pump. The electric trap will shut the pump off. Call Lapierre in Swanton. They come pretty much plug and play. All you have to do is connect the power.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, we have two of the Busch (model 1142-3) pumps at UVM PMRC. Advantages....high vacuum, good CFM removal at high vacuum (not the best, but quite good), low maintenance, quiet, small, no oil or water to deal with, VFD-controlled. Disadvantages.....cost, catastrophic failure if you pull sap through them.

So basically it comes down to the need to have a bullet-proof moisture/liquid trap system. We use a mechanical trap followed by the electric moisture trap. I've been told that there is a slight possibility that they can be repaired onsite if the damage wasn't too severe, and a reasonable possibility of factory repair, but that the pump will be out of commission for the season in that case.

We have used a wide variety of vacuum systems here over the years, everything from 3/16" natural vacuum, to sap pullers, dairy pumps, vane pumps, liquid ring pumps, and now the rotary claw pumps. A lot depends upon what you want out of it, what you want to spend to get it, and what sort of maintenance you're comfortable with. Since none of us actually live at PMRC (it just feels that way sometime), low maintenance and low operating supervision is very high on the list of desired attributes. We do still use some LR (oil-cooled) pumps for certain research areas (so we can keep the production bush taps separate from the research taps), and Tim Wilmot actually bought a Sap Puller this year to see about using low vacuum pumps to augment natural vacuum in 3/16" lines.

[spud]

Thanks guy's for the information. Sounds like the double moisture trap set-up is the key to keeping the pump safe. Dave Y I will call Tom this week and see what he has to say. Thank you again.

Spud

[lmathews]

So in your opinion & experience Dr.Tim what is the overall least maintenance,and highest vac level pump to get?I was thinking of a busch but not any more.I run 27" of vac. and want a relatively bullet proof pump.
Thanks,Lee

[Tmeeeh]

We installed a 3 hp BUSCH pump last season. It is quieter and uses less power than the liquid ring pumps we were using before. No cooling water or oil needed. The unit runs cool to the touch all season long. The VFD speed control with the vacuum transducer is way more sensitive to vacuum level than a regular vacuum gauge or by feeling how much air is blowing out of the pump. A quick glance at the VFD digital readout will tell you how tight your system is. We bought our pump after the 2012 season some shopping around and asking for competitive bids form the dealers lead to a 30% discount off the regular price. I was surprised to find that Leader offered the best price delivered to us by our local dealer. The thing is quite heavy.

[Dave Y]

I do not belevie that there is such a thing as a bullet proof pump. liquid ring pumps need to be cooled and if you are using water for a seal you have to worry a bout freezing. oil flood also need to be cooled and then there is the issue of leaking oil. So far this is what I have excperinced with my busch pump. the pump comes on at 32degs and shuts of at 31degs. It makes 27hg if your woods is tight.once it makes the set vacuum level it will idle back. when the extractor dumps the pump ramps up to make any lost vacuum. the pump runs cool to the touch. I have two moisture traps that will shut the pump down if sap is sucked back to the pump. There is an oil level that needs maintained , however, I dont think it will use much. My pump is 4.5 miles from my sugar house I do not have to go turn it on or off. I think this is a very reliable system. I would recommend it to any one willing to pay the price.

[unc23win]

Dave Y I think everyone would love to have it as easy as you described when it comes to pump maintenance and set up. I was just wondering what are you calculating your cfms per tap at? 1 per hundred 2 per hundred or more?

Thanks

[GeneralStark]

I do not belevie that there is such a thing as a bullet proof pump. liquid ring pumps need to be cooled and if you are using water for a seal you have to worry a bout freezing. oil flood also need to be cooled and then there is the issue of leaking oil. So far this is what I have excperinced with my busch pump. the pump comes on at 32degs and shuts of at 31degs. It makes 27hg if your woods is tight.once it makes the set vacuum level it will idle back. when the extractor dumps the pump ramps up to make any lost vacuum. the pump runs cool to the touch. I have two moisture traps that will shut the pump down if sap is sucked back to the pump. There is an oil level that needs maintained , however, I dont think it will use much. My pump is 4.5 miles from my sugar house I do not have to go turn it on or off. I think this is a very reliable system. I would recommend it to any one willing to pay the price.

Why not just leave the pump on 24/7? It seems that this turning on and turning off according to a temp. sensor is far more complex than necessary. Besides, just because it is 31 at your pump does not mean it is 31 in the woods where it matters. I have been getting runs here recently when it is below freezing according to the thermometer but the sun is warming the trees and the sap flow is melting the ice in the lines. These aren't great runs but it all adds up to more syrup. One extra gallon of syrup will more than pay for the cost of the electricity.

Trusting a temp. sensor, or even yourself for that matter, to know when the sap will run decreases your productivity in the long run. Turn it on at the beginning of the season and turn it off when the peepers start peeping.

[wiam]

Why not just leave the pump on 24/7? It seems that this turning on and turning off according to a temp. sensor is far more complex than necessary. Besides, just because it is 31 at your pump does not mean it is 31 in the woods where it matters. I have been getting runs here recently when it is below freezing according to the thermometer but the sun is warming the trees and the sap flow is melting the ice in the lines. These aren't great runs but it all adds up to more syrup. One extra gallon of syrup will more than pay for the cost of the electricity.

Trusting a temp. sensor, or even yourself for that matter, to know when the sap will run decreases your productivity in the long run. Turn it on at the beginning of the season and turn it off when the peepers start peeping.

What do you have for a releaser? If a mechanical releaser is full when it freezes it sucks the next morning.
Well actually it does not suck at all.

[GeneralStark]

What do you have for a releaser? If a mechanical releaser is full when it freezes it sucks the next morning.
Well actually it does not suck at all.

I have an electric releaser in a heated room.

[Dave Y]

I have a 51cfm pump on 3000 taps, I have a north and west facing exposure. trust me when the pump is off the sap is frozen. I have a mechanical releaser in a heated building. Here is my reasoning for a Busch Pump. I had a liquid ring pump and it did ok as far as the vacuum went but the maintenace was a PITA for me. My set up is in a remote location away from the sugar house, I had to pump service water to it and keep a fan on it to keep it cool . When the weather was cold I had to keep it from freezing, as the weather warmed I needed to try to keep it cool. as the season progressed it was harder to keep vacuum . So I spent the money and bought what I felt was best for me.

[wiam]

I have an electric releaser in a heated room.

I know I would run vac 24/7 if I could have that situation. Unfortunately my releaser is 1600' from power. Keep thinking about building an insulated box around it. Has anybody done that for a remote mechanical?

[GeneralStark]

It is indeed the ideal situation and was a key component in the design of my new sugarhouse. In my previous situation I had a mechanical releaser in a plywood box on the tank and would put a heat lamp in the box to keep the releaser from freezing up. But, it was only 40' from the sugarhouse. 1600' is a different story.

[Russell Lampron]

We installed a 3 hp BUSCH pump last season. It is quieter and uses less power than the liquid ring pumps we were using before. No cooling water or oil needed. The unit runs cool to the touch all season long. The VFD speed control with the vacuum transducer is way more sensitive to vacuum level than a regular vacuum gauge or by feeling how much air is blowing out of the pump. A quick glance at the VFD digital readout will tell you how tight your system is. We bought our pump after the 2012 season some shopping around and asking for competitive bids form the dealers lead to a 30% discount off the regular price. I was surprised to find that Leader offered the best price delivered to us by our local dealer. The thing is quite heavy.

Hi Tim, You should have told me you were on the maple trader when you stopped at my sugar house Sunday. I'm going to upgrade my RO situation first then maybe we can talk about your Busch pump some more. I want to know more about the VFD and your long term experiences with it.

[Tmeeeh]

We are using two VFDs now. One to control the vacuum pump and the other to control a sap transfer pump. I understand they are starting to be used in RO machines instead of valves to control pressure and flow speeds while concentrating and while washing. They are computer controlled inverters. They can be destroyed by lightning or power surges so they need surge suppressors. I disconnect them from the power supply in the off season. I bought mine online. There are lots to choose from. Look for one that can take single phase input and output three phase. Most of them take three phase input, if you use one of those you need to oversize the VFD by 30%. The VFDs are capable of doing lots of different things. Finding the section in the manual that applies to our use takes a while. Then understanding the directions of how to set it up also takes a while. Once set up they work great. They provide motor speed control and overload protection in one box. A regular motor starter isn't needed to prevent motor burnout or a fire. I get the feeling that they have a shorter lifespan than the motor or the pump but I don't know that. I consulted with the electrician at Bascom before setting it up. I got mine online after looking at the one bascom was selling with the 3 HP Busch pump. I would be happy to show you mine.

[sapman]

I'm in my third year with my Busch setup, and love it. 3hp 59 cfm for 2200 taps, maintaining 27-28 inches right now, and going to look for more leaks today. I have only a single electric moisture trap, which did it's job the one time it has needed to. The only trouble I ever had was putting too thick an oil in it for off season storage one year. Was shutting down on high amperage, but I also found I had to set the upper limit for amps, too. Now I use WD40 at end of season, or whenever it will be off for an extended period. Using with electric releaser with Goulds centrifugal pump, and has worked flawlessly.

Tim

[Raining1]

spud, I bought a 51 cfm Busch pump for this season. So far it has performed flawlessly. Mine has a vfd and a single phase to three phase converter running it along with a Johnson temp control. It is true that you should not get water in one. However, there are ways to ensure that you do not. I have a manual and electric moisture traps ahead of my pump. The electric trap will shut the pump off. Call Lapierre in Swanton. They come pretty much plug and play. All you have to do is connect the power.

Do you happen to have a picture of how the Johnson control is wired to the VFD? I have the same setup - a Busch pump with a Yaskawa V1000 VFD, but would like to add the Johnson temperature control.

[DrTimPerkins]

Do you happen to have a picture of how the Johnson control is wired to the VFD? I have the same setup - a Busch pump with a Yaskawa V1000 VFD, but would like to add the Johnson temperature control.

Raining1....you might note that this thread is originally from about 7.5 yrs ago. You might have better luck on these old threads (topics) by starting a new thread specific to your particular question, or even better, first try to Private Message (through MapleTrader) the person who specifically had info about your question so their attention is brought to your query. Otherwise, people might not even bother reading it.