homemade drawoff valve

[archangel_cpj]

I know I can make an automatic drawoff valve for way less than 1K Ive found a digital controller for 35.oo and the temp probe is easy enough now what about the valves where do I fing a electric valve. anyway I think 200.00 or less and I could have one as good or beter than the 1000 - 2000 jobs. Anyone here built there own automatic draw offs???

[HanginAround]

When my uncle was prototyping, he used a variety of systems. One he did used a windshield wiper motor from a surplus store to drive a valve (has built-in "home" position). Most auto-drawoffs use a solenoid, but they have high current demands, so not much good for 12v use. His current ones use a motor driven valve, so only uses low current and only when the valve is opening or closing, plus has more positive response than a solenoid. The valve itself is normally a poppet type (valve disc or plunger on a stem) in some sort of a tee oriented so the straight through is vertical so the valve stem extends upward and the syrup outlet is downward. I have seen some protos with a ball valve too though, just hard to drive open or closed. Whatever you use, your controller has to be able to drive it. Sorry I can't help you with finding all this stuff, but maybe give you some things to think about anyway.

[blackstrapking]

If you go to Grainger.com and type "electric valves" in the search box, you will find several different styles of electric valves including ball valves. The inlet/outlets vary from 3/4 to 1+1/2. Prices were APX $300-700. Dont know if this was exactly what you were looking for, but I hope it helps.
Jason

[Parker]

On our Maple tour this spring to Franklin County Vermont I was VERY impressed by the new generation of draw off valves that are variabel in the ammount they open,,,,,,instead of being a plunger type valve that is all the way open or all the way shut ,, they were a round gate in a round hole that opens to differing degrees depending on how hot the batch is - They can open all the way or just a little,,,I saw one in the Minoir sugar house that was ALWAYS open a littel and once in a while would open right up,,so you dont loose your boil with a big draw that draws a littel too much,,,,,if I were going to build one I would try this route,,,,when you get it figured uot Ill buy one from you,,,,,,,,:]

[Fred Henderson]

Also might try looking for valves at www.mcmaster.com.

[Dave Y]

I am certain MSC has what you are looking for. www.msc.com

[HanginAround]

Parker, do you know what brand it was that opens proportionally?

[Parker]

Marcland,,I talked to the fellow that makes them at this past maplrama,,I wanted to keep the controler that I have and get that new styel valve,,he said that new style valve takes a new style controler,,,,

[ibby458]

I have 2 electric valves made from Stainless (3/4", I think) that run on 120 volts. Only water has been run thru them. I don't know if they're ball valves, plug valves or gate valves, or if they're solenoid operated or motor driven. (I THINK motor driven)

If you're interested, I can dig them out and test them and see what kind they are.

I'd be interested in making a drawoff of my own, but the other is up for grabs. Maybe some sort of swap deal?

[royalmaple]

My father in law is an electrical engineer and we have been trying to develop something for over a year now and are pretty close to the exact thing parker mentioned, a variable valve so you are not just getting open or closed.

Until I have everything tested 100% I'll keep my mouth shut, but it looks pretty promising. From what I have seen so far, although the "others" seem way over priced, they are not as bad as it ends up being. You could make a down and dirty one for less, but when you throw in the variable flow, you are talking a couple more components that all need to be in sync.

If something ends up working for sure, I'll post the results. If not it is just another one of my pipe dreams.

[archangel_cpj]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dual-Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Control-Controller_W0QQitemZ250063910316QQihZ015QQcategory Z50926QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

controller is here now to make it variable you would need to have a variable valve of course and the controller. this one gets pretty accurate and if hooked to the valve ought to do the trickle and the fast flow with the super PID you see if the unit senses the temp at 218 and it opens at 219 then at around 218.8 or so it will begin to open and if the temp get to say 219.1 or 2 then it will open more and more to hold 219. father in law was a NASA engineer for 40 years and says there is a 40 dollar controller maybe a 100 dollar valve and they are probably available free or surplus somewhere and a 200 home depot plastic box and a 26 cent home depot outlet the thermo coupler is included with the controller but are less than 20 bucks any way. Now my ????? how can one charge even 500.00 for it thats 100% mark up or more. Will advise on the prozect.

[archangel_cpj]

just went on e - bay and can get 1/2 inch solenoud valves 120 volt for 30 bucks including shipping!!!!!

[HanginAround]

It looks like that controller might make a good homemade draw-off, but it still doesn't mean the price of commercial ones is unjustified. My uncle's are micro-computer controlled, pressure sensing and compensating, .1 deg accurate, calibrated, aluminum control box, SS plumbing, displays, buttons, beepers, motor controllers, motors, and designed, built, and programmed from the ground up for making maple syrup... just cost of components and labour adds up in a hurry. You'd be surprised at how many individual IC's and other electronic parts are near $30 each. His electronic thermometers retail for $200, you can buy cheap one at WalMart for $10, but they aren't the same thing. I'm not saying homemade or cheap is bad, depends what you want, just want to correct the impression that it's all markup.

[Sugarmaker]

No doubt we all would like to be able to buy items like this cheaper. If you can build it yourself and it satisfy your needs then do it. Building a better "mouse trap" is a great thing too.
I can build some of the simple items to increase efficiency like hoods, preheaters and blowers, but draw the line at electronics. Guess I am just a little old school and don't have the electrical training to know where to start. But If someone could sell a bullet proof controller for auto draw off for say $150 the would be a lot of requests.
Just like the price of syrup at $40.00 per gallon sounds high for some one who has never made it, the $150-200 (my est) draw off may not be realistic with parts and labor to put this on the market?
I will be watching this tread close and ready to order one. :)
Chris

[archangel_cpj]

I think what it boils down to is the differance between pros and home users. The hobbiest of small time producer wants an fairly accurate within .5 degrees or so unit and wants it cheap but reliable I cannot imagine how a hobbiest or small producer justifies 700 or so for the cheapest ones out there. that is where the niche seems to be in this market and few marketers are tapping it. Me for example I want the unit to put the near finished syrup in a container I dont care if it runs fast continuous or slow just so I can turn my back on the evap for a few minutes. Now a pro whos whole life is run on syrup they must have the best and can afford it. I wish there was a bit more marketing of these gadgets to small guys. its like evaporators a new one is 3K or more and for a small hobbiest thats bout all they can get away with. I can get a sensor and a program that will run off my lap top and my weather station and I bet the whole thing is 400 or so dollars and very accurate think is I dont want my lap top in a steamy sugar shack.

[archangel_cpj]

I have gathered the parts to make an automatic drawoff and will begin assembling them together. Here is the numbers so far. I have a digital temp controller with PID and all the bells that i got for 40 bucks including shipping it has dual displays and is bout 3 inches by three inches by 4 inches. Two type K thermo couples with 5 inch SS probed and fittings for 12.00 for the pair. I foung an 1/2 inch brass 120 volt solenoid valve new without a box for 35 dollars shipped. I picked up a PVC box from Home Depot for 11.00 That puts my total cost at 98.00 Now with odds and ends glue etc I will be right at 100.00 Looks just like the 1000.00 ones and the controller is just as accurate especially with the PID option. Sure beats 1000.00 When I get it done and If I can figure out how to post a pic here or if I can e - mail a pic to somepone to post I will. It is basic wiring but since dad in law is a NASA electrical engineer he will wire for me. For a home unit I think this may be hard to beat.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Keep us posted as I can't wait to see how it works. :D

[HanginAround]

Sounds excellent, maybe you can market them once you get your proto finished.

I agree that there should be some lower end ones available, and I've mentioned that to uncle a few times. I guess the problem is that it takes too much time to engineer, and then build and market, and still some parts like the valves are expensive, and still have enough mark-up to make it worthwhile. If you're planning something for production, you can't rely on "one of" parts on eBay, etc., yet on the otherhand, volumes don't warrant buying cheap in bunk either.

[archangel_cpj]

When done Ill post instructions and pics it should be easy for anyone to build.

[archangel_cpj]

Automatic draw off is done and I got in for right at 100.00 I have the PID controller installed and I have a normally open solenoid valve. The PID controller learns what the evaporator conditions are and works to keep the sap temp at where I want it so stay I want the sap to be at 218 all the time it learns how fast the heat is going up and takes in to account the thermocouple error then it works to maintain the 218 if the temp goes to 218.1 it flutters the valve in one second intervals to keep the temp at the set value. Theoretically once we get going I should have a constant tricle of syrup comming off the line as the unit will never remove huge batches of product and put the brakes on the boil. Will advise whn we test it for real and if anyone wants to see it or how its put together drop an e - mail and Ill get some pics on for ya.

[brookledge]

Sounds good
Keith

[archangel_cpj]

There are a mess of folks who want to know the details of how I made the auto drawoff so here goes and here are the links to the parts. The first component was a PID controller I went with a Celcius model (accident on my part) the same guy has farenhite temp is temp and the conversion is easy I saved 10 bucks maybe 15 by going C and have the same performance Heres my PID controller
http://cgi.ebay.com/Celsius-999C-Digital-PID-Temperature-Control-controller_W0QQitemZ250077205124QQihZ015QQcategory Z50926QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Here is the thermocouple I got you get 2 for 12 bucks
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290077102699&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT&refitem=290068821124&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
I had origionally found a valve that was normally closed but fount that the normal relay position was closed (power on) so to work for my application(cooling not heating) I went with a ASCO normally open valve so when the temp gets over the set limit the valve opens (power is cut off.)
The valve will be the hardest to get a deal on if your patient you will find one on e - bay in a hurray and youll spemd 70 bucks for a new one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270080486747&rd=1&rd=1

Thw wiring is stupid simple three wires for power (ground neutral and power) and two wires for themocouple) I wired a switch I bought from Home depot in and I also hooked up a regular duplex outlet that the relay feeds so I can just plug in the valve and unplug. I paid 11 bucks for the grey PVC box at home depot and all in all the wiring took 20min. I had to learn a bit about PID controllers and the owners manual for the one I got is online. at www.support.lightobject.com
The easiest way for me to explain a PID controller id that a regular controller slams on the brakes you are either valve open or closed so you get to 218 say and the valve opens to drop the temp to 217 say. A PID controller learns the average temp increase and flutters the valve to maintain 218 say so you get a smooter gentler controll and therefore shoud (ON PAPER) have a better boil and always be gettin a trickle fo syrup off. I will post pics as soon as I take em hopefully tomorrow. any other ????? please let me know and If I test boil next weekend as planned Ill brief the group on the units performance.

[archangel_cpj]

Nope dont want to sell em help yourselves to the info and build away there is enough we have to spend bunches of money on.

[HanginAround]

Sounds really excellent. Thanks for the info and give us an update once the season starts.

[archangel_cpj]

Here are the pics of the finished unit It seems to work OK and I cant wait to try her out. What do you all think.


http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/899/dscf0347zz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[royalmaple]

Looks nice, just have to dilute a gallon of syrup into your pans and see if you can get it back out. Or just wait a few weeks I guess.

[New Hope Mapleman]

I got one of the controllers and started working on making a draw-off. Mine would have to be extremely acurate and so I've done some testing with it. It looks like I will have to get a "T" series thermocoupler to get the tenth of a degree accuracy and will have to install a relay to keep the low amperage relay in the controller from failing. The SSR only turns on for a breif moment every two seconds, so I'm going to use the other circuits. Like many other items these draw-offs are similiar to the billing for the old factory machine repairs. (Kicking machine $1-Knowing where to kick it $9999). If it doesn't work right at least I'll have a really nice looking thermometer
Thanks for all the information

[archangel_cpj]

The controller I have has been used in smokers and coffee machines where there is quite a bit of relay use it should be OK also my valve only uses a few miliamps to open up. and like 8 watts. I have an normally open valve so that the relay is closed all the time and then open when needing to dump syrup or "cool" I had mine on last nite for 1.5 hours and no troubles yey.

[parsissn]

Have you had a chance to use your new draw off valve for a live run yet? I'm curious how the Asco valve stands up. I see the specs on that valve are 180 deg F maximum fluid temp. I'm guessing they left some factor of safety in there but just curious how it holds up to 218.

Mark

[archangel_cpj]

Tested the whole rig with h2o last week no issues the valve body and all is brass and there may be a little rubber piece in there I checked with an engineer who thought the valve ought to be good to 350 - 400 consistantly. the weather changed and we are not flowing enough to boil yet maybe next week

[Pete33Vt]

Archangel, Hows the autodraw working out? With all the boiling Ihave been doing I got to thinking I would try to build one for next year. I was just curious if the unit is working out for you and if there are any problems.
Thanks in advance

[archangel_cpj]

OK first thing I should have spent the extra 15 bucks for the better PID controller. I will upgrade next year still the controller will be around 70 bucks. I got a good performance outta the valve and the whole system as a whole. what I found was that the controller tried to keep the syrup at the set temp say 217 or 218 etc so the valve would sit there and chatter as it opened and closed to maintain the temp. I would get an almost steady trickle of syrup for the finisher. this would happen foe fours and the ASCO bvalve held up fine as did the controller relay. I think for the home user at 200 bucks max this is fine beats 1 kilo buck at least.

[Pete33Vt]

Thanks for the info. I am going to start looking into the parts to build one.

[Bob Shields]

Archangel
I was intrested in your homemade drawoff valve.I sent you a PM.
Would like to hear from you.
Thank you,
Bob Shields

[jemsklein]

my dad could aslo build one too so give him a pm his name is MR Electrician

[Brent]

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, just share info.

There is a guy in New Brunswick making a barometrically compensated one for less than $1000. He lists some of the big guys as distributors.
see www.ystec.com

I know you can order his stuff from
http://www.unclerichardsmaplesyrup.com/

I got one of the digital thermometers with an alarm and will soon have one of his draw offs. The Marcland with barometric compensation is about $1400.

[jemsklein]

brent i would hate to ran on your parade but here is one on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/Maple-syrup-Utility-Draw-off-system-UDR-TP3-1-V3_W0QQitemZ230215879908QQihZ013QQcategoryZ20474QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Brent]

This is being offered by the guy that is building my evap.
www.patrickphaneuf.com (http://www.patrickphaneuf.com)

It is a better price than you'll find from most other retailers ... a pretty good deal.

BUT

this one is not barometrically compensated. In fact it does not even have an alarm output ... much needed at 1:30 AM before the pail overflows

The Marcland list price for the barometrically compensated unit is $1488. and the only retailer offering discounts the I have seen is Patrick.
and he inlcudes shipping.
http://auth.bluemoo.net/~marcland/

(http://auth.bluemoo.net/%7Emarcland/)
got the poster... thanks
The prices are available as a pdf.

[Sugarwood Hill]

OK, it has been a few years now since this conversation took place.... What is the verdict on this homemade drawoff valve?

[Brent]

I'm not sure if you're refering to the one I got from the Canadian guy on the east coast, but it was a serious disappointment. Right now I am going right past all the small scale stuff and I'm waiting on for delivery on a CDL draw off that uses an Omron programmable thermal controller and a commercial, industrial grade actuator. These are items that are made in at least the 10 of thousands of quantities and hopefully are as bullet proof as it gets.

The CDL mini draw off with a good match to the plumbing on the Leader 2-1/2 x 8, is only $995 Cdn. They're building it up with Tri-clamps so I can close the valve and swap it over to the other side to reverse the flow. It should be here in 2 weeks. I'll post a picture when I get it. It looks just like the one in the CDL catalog, but the valve itself will be scaled down a bit.