Warm/Soft winter..........effects

[Pete S]

It doesn't matter what is gonna come out of the taps this spring, as we're gonna give'er another shot this year............but;

We had some cold weather in Oct, and a couple of doses of wet snow, but it's Dec 21, and I'm looking out at green lawn, and rain. It's been about 35-40* for the past three weeks.

In our climate, east central WI, does a soft/warm winter effect the sap run in a bad way?

Thanks!
Pete

[maplehound]

Pete,
Your guess is as good as ours. I have seen years that where warm turn out real good. and real bad. I believe that all that matters is what the spring is like.

[Father & Son]

Had a long time syrup maker tell me that all it takes is 3 weeks of freezing weather to "re-set" the maple tree. Still plenty of time for that and we still have to wait to see what spring has in store for us

Jim

[802maple]

I am willing to answer that question with my many years of experience , but I can't tell you until May 15th LOL

[mapleman3]

I'm pretty positive that mid march I will be boiling one way or another...

[royalmaple]

It will be interesting to see what happens, but you know it will be cold sure as heck between now and March.

I guess we all hear global warming etc, but I find it funny when we have a record warm day and the old record was 1929 or something, so they must have had global warming then too right, but then global cooling for 70+ years, now back to warming again?

I going with this is a sign from above, so the guy upstairs can say: "Hey I gave you a couple extra months to get enough wood in, now don't compain with all the sap I am giving you in March. I was trying to give you a hint,." Too bad he doesn't have the internet, he could post on here. Next time we'll listen for sure if that is the case.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Warm winters have never bode much good for me. :? 2 years ago it hardly got above freezing the entire month of Jan including day temps and had a tremendous season and last year it had got below freezing the entire month of Jan and most of the winter and a bad season. This seems to be the norm for me, but may be different up there. :?

[Parker]

An old farmer I used to work for when I was a kid always said "There is no such thing as 2 bad sugaring seasons in a row",,,well I guess we just had 2 pretty poor seasons so my money is on needing all of the the 40 cords of 4' split wood I have in the sugarhouse this season,,,,,,,,,,,,

[markcasper]

An old sugarmaker that I know reminded me the other day, "when the days get longer, the cold gets stronger." I'm sure we'll all get our cold weather and its sure been nice getting things prepared with no snow. Mark

[Chemist]

I had heard that when the trees bud the season is over. Here in SE Wisconsin, I have buds on my trees after last week's rain. It is supposed to rain each of the next two days too. I am really concerned about the spring run.

I just had a brand new pan made and built a great 3 by 2 foot stove. I don't want to lose a whole year of syruping.

Does anyone else have buds on the trees? How big do the buds have to get before they are a problem.

[markcasper]

I have to think that you are talking about soft maple? They always get big red buds on them over the course of winter (if you can cal it that)

Its way too early to give up hope! According to the weather reports, the reason for the unusually mild weather is that the jet stream is way up in Canada, thus keeping the cold air up there. If that thing buckles (which it will eventually) it will be unusualy cold further south and its all about timing.

The long range outlook on accuweather calls for significantly colder weather returning to my area come the 2nd week of January. Get your prep work done while its still warm and nice outside! Mark

[Chemist]

An arborist said that what I have is called a Black Maple woods. They said the black maple were hard maples like the sugar maple. The buds are not big, but the fact that they were there bothered me. Maybe there are always little buds on the trees all winter?

This is my fourth season coming up, so I have a lot to learn.

[Fred Henderson]

I had heard that when the trees bud the season is over. Here in SE Wisconsin, I have buds on my trees after last week's rain. It is supposed to rain each of the next two days too. I am really concerned about the spring run.

I just had a brand new pan made and built a great 3 by 2 foot stove. I don't want to lose a whole year of syruping.

Does anyone else have buds on the trees? How big do the buds have to get before they are a problem.


No one wants to lose a season of sugaring but what choice do we have, its just the way that it is. I have probably invested well over 6 grand in my new setup, hood preheater and gas canning/filter unit. If you can change the weather go for it.

[Russell Lampron]

There are always buds on the trees after the leaves fall off. You don't have to worry untill they open and start to flower. Last year the buds on the red maples started to open in January but closed back up again when the cold weather finally got here in February.

We will get the cold weather, we always do. Remember how cold the first part of March was the last 2 seasons. Hopefully it will be more like normal this year.

Russ

[royalmaple]

Past three days it has been pretty darn cold here.

My new weather station that santa brought is pretty neat.

Last three days the min temp was 16.3F, 12.6F and last night was 7.3F. That is cold. 8O

It is a balmy 18F currently.

[Pete S]

Here in eastern central WI, been in the 40's, and should continue till this next weekend.

Some mention of mid 30's for next week, our typical average anticipated temps are in the low/mid 20's for this time of year.

Our tulips and iris are coming up, and some weeds are begining to flower........I'm gettin' a bit concerned.

We are recieving about 1" or better of rain a week which is needed, and LOTS of cloudy days.

No ice, no snow just tons of slippery MUD!

Pete

[brookledge]

Matt
That is alot colder than we are seeing the highs are in the 40s and 50s this week and lows in the 30s and 40s
Normal high for me should only be low 30s
Keith

[royalmaple]

It did get down to 19.9 last night, and been right around the freezing point today. Started out freezing rain here today, now all rain.

This week is gradually getting up to 50 friday and saturday. Lows are expected to all be below freezing though. :?

As long as end of february is normal and march, I'll deal with more rain.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Hardly got below freezing the entire month of Dec and the 10 day forecast shows the same for first 10 days of Jan. Oh well, I am not God, so whatever happens, happens! 8O

[The Sappy Steamer]

Chemist,
I'm starting to get a little concerned about the reds I have budding. Even though they always have buds this time of year, I can't imagine the buds staying dormant if we have a real long spell of weather like this(51 degrees yesturday in N.Y.) I would think you would be ok with the blacks for now though, but what do I know, this is only my fourth season too. I blew a pantload of money this year on upgrades myself and am not real exited about the weather, but we can't change it, so maybe we can learn something anyways.(Yeah, don't spend a pantload of money on upgrades!) In the meantime, enjoy the nice fall-like weather, the crap is coming soon enough :)

[royalmaple]

I might as well call myself Mr. Red, or something because that is about all I have. I can't give you 3 decades of research to back it up, but what I have noticed at least on my trees is that when the weather gets warm for say a week or at least a few days, like we had beginning of November the buds really puff up. It looked like I was going to have leaves in another day or two. Then a cold snap, the buds shrunk right back up very small. And recently it has been cold so they are all pretty small again. But a warm up this week will probably swell them up some more. But when the next cold spell hits they'll probably shrink right back to normal.

Just have to wait and see.

[markcasper]

I have never heard of flucuating buds.

[The Sappy Steamer]

Matt,
On on "normal" year how late do you usually sugar with all those reds? When do you usually tap? I have maybe 40% sugars right now ,the rest are reds. Next year I can bring on maybe another 20 sugars if I get around to it. I have hundreds of reds to tap if I decide to go that way ,but I'm trying to keep the sugar content as high as I can. I will have a ton more sugars if I make it ten more years. :)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

The buds are laughing there butts off at you just making fun of you! 8O :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[Fred Henderson]

Brandon, Are most of your tap trees Reds?

[royalmaple]

Sappy-


I started Feb 20th, got them all in and deep freeze set in. Nothing happened till first week in March. But that is about the time frame, just hard to say if the weather is 15-20F for highs why bother.

I almost tapped in Jan last year, but I didn't. This year if I had my tubing set up with vacuum like I want to still do and the evaporator all set, I think I'd try it, but never know. And I got too much to get ready for.

Last year I left my taps in till just about the second week of april. And just at the end of march we had a run for a couple of days pretty much straight, then cold snap and snow storm. Then right after that I got a decent run for 2 days I think that was like april 10th, cloudy sap. But buckets were full from those two day and collection tanks were full too.

I boiled some of that sap and it was pretty buddy / caramel smelling so I dumped the rest of the sap, which was several hundred gallons. Problem was I was so fed up with the evaporator I was using last year that I couldn't take it anymore.

This year I am boiling till may if I get the sap. I don't care how cloudy or what grade. I can still sell all the bulk commercial syrup, and with the withdrawls I have now, I need maple de-tox.

I have only been tapping these trees for 3 seasons, so I don't have a good history to really tell you, but I can say that the trees have stopped running due to weather, pretty much at the time or just before the syrup gets buddy.

I had about 250 taps on my land last year and all reds, and sugar was at 2% pretty much all season. I think the very very end of it was 1.5-1.7%

Other areas I tapped were roadside reds and roadside sugars and that collection usually averaged 3%ish up to the end.

Brandon-

I know the worst tree for it is a large red maple right at the end of my driveway. I have to walk by it everyday to get the mail and it is like there is air pressure hooked up to that sucker. I almost took a picture of the buds in early november, those suckers were right ready to pop.

[royalmaple]

Brandon-

We'll see who laugh's last when I look at the trees with my drill in hand :!: :twisted: :!: :twisted: :!: :twisted:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Fred,

About 95% of my taps are sugars, I try to stay away from the reds as the sugars here run about 1.75% sugar. 8O

[VA maple guy]

Royalmaple, I got your pm and thought I would reply here. Most of my trees are reds, I have wooded trees, road side trees and two trees that are growing alongside a creek bank. You would think the two trees on the creek bank would produce the most sap, well theye are two of my worst trees. My reds produce more sap than my silvers a little less than my
Norways and a lot less than my sugars. The reds average about 1.5%.
Theye also don't run as many days as the sugars do, but I would not be able to make nearly as much syrup with out them. Good luck with yours


Gerry

[markcasper]

Speaking of creekside trees. I have a few of them, they are hard maple and they have NEVER ran much more than a gallon of sap per tap for the whole year. I don't even mess with them any more, in a good year they run bad. Anybody have an explanation for Gerry and I? Mark

[Russell Lampron]

I have a sugar maple in my yard like that. The most sap I will get in a run is about 4" in the bottom of the bucket. It is a nice looking tree with a beautiful crown too. About 50 feet away I have a couple of smaller trees that will fill a bucket in a day.

Russ

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Most of my creekside trees run better than anything because they have unlimited supply of water I guess. 8O

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Part of the problem is you need to sweet talk em' a little more/ Tell them if they don't get crackin' the'll be in the wood pile fast. :twisted:

I haven't looked at the trees so i could'nt give you an evaluation at this time of the prognosis? :lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The weirdest thing here is that Oct has probably been the coldest month so far and the way Jan is going, it is going to be colder than Jan also. 8O 8O

[VA maple guy]

Kevin, I like your idea about the wood pile. How about threatning them
about 50 taps in there sweet spot. Ya think that might work.
Gerry

[The Sappy Steamer]

Matt,
Last year I did tap in January and had some decent runs. That was the first year I did any reds(maybe 25% of the trees). I wasn't sure with the mix of sugars/reds on tubing if I would have to pull the taps on the reds earlier to avoid getting all my sap buddy. I had enough of running by the first of April so I pulled my taps, so I didn't get a real good feel for the timing on the reds. This year I plan on tapping mid Feb. at the earliest so I'll be able to hang in there til the season ends and I won't need to redrill half way through either. I bought a sap hydrometer this year and am real curious what kind of % I'm getting with the mix. I have hundreds of reds I could tap, but have been trying to avoid diluting things too much. I imagine it will probably come to that anyway, eventually. :)
Dan


Mark and Gerry,
I had two beautiful sugars on a creek bank that gets sun all day. I thought they would be great producers. The trees in the shaded areas in the woods out produced them. I'd love to hear the explanation on that one myself.
Dan

[VA maple guy]

Dan,I have never got any buddy sap from my reds.
Theye have always shut down before it turns buddy.
Gerry

[White Barn Farm]

Last year I tapped both sides of a creek that was small enough to jump over. One side ran 3 times what the other did. Both sides hard maples, same age trees, same crowns.... who knows.

[The Sappy Steamer]

Gerry,
That's good to know. I hear about the reds budding earlier than the sugars, but can't say I've seen it for myself. USUALLY temps where I'm at in the southern tier fluctuate widely when it starts warming up. I think that kind of slows things down until the temps. get more consistant. I was up gathering wood yesturday and scoped things out. There's not the hint of real buds on anything. It may have been close to fifty degrees out in the sun, but still frosty in the woods. I think the contour of your land can make a big difference, much in the same way it can with sap flow. If your on a slope like mine that gets sun in the morning only(when the temps. are still low from frosty nights) I think in can push the clock back alot. Maybe it has to do more with the climate in your particular woods than the calender.Idunno :? Dan

[ontario guy]

Does anyone have an opinion if we are even going to have a syrup season this year.... it is close to a high of 50 F degrees here for the next couple of days.. it is normally -10 F.

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Like all you other guys, we are concerned about the unusually warm temps in our area too but I like royalmaple's approach. Prepare now so you are ready for spring. With 60 degrees in the forecast for this weekend, it'll be a perfect opportunity to work in the sugarhouse getting things ready.

Russ

[Dave Y]

If you fella's remember everyone worried themselves gray last year.I made 88 gal from a mix of 400 red and sugars. Not bad. I would prepare for the worst and hope for the best. It is what it is.

[Fred Henderson]

If I could predict how the syrup season wold be I would be living on a south sea inland doing it from there. Get ready because when it starts it will be a gusher. I got no proof of this just a feeling.

[802maple]

When you have been around this long enough you will know that you have bad years and good ones and in the forty plus years that I have been involved in making maple I have not seen a year that what happened prior to sugaring have a major effect on what made a good or bad season. It has depended on what happened in the season as far as the weather goes. It might have a effect on the sugar content or flavor but not much on the quantity. Just be ready and mother nature will do the rest. Lets hope that when sugaring gets here we have similar weather to this and not to warm or to cold

[royalmaple]

Well I couldn't take it anymore so I did what any perfectly sane person would do. I called Miss Cleo:

http://infomercial.tvheaven.com/videos/miss_cleo_commercial.wmv (link is not working, type in the link for a good laugh)

And she assured me that we would all have a great sugaring season this year.

"You all goin tee have da best sugarin seasin af all, dis yer, dem trees gonna run and run fer you"

I must have been one of the last lucky callers cause she is now off the air. I guess she should have "seen" that coming.
:D

So I guess we can all just sit back and wait now. It was well worth the 89.00 phone call. :lol:

[HanginAround]

LOL, that's hillarious!

If you click on the link, you get an error page, but if you copy and paste the URL into your browser it works. It's because the site blocks remote links, nothing you did wrong.

[Dave Y]

matt, you are too funny !! when i read your post really did laugh out loud!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[royalmaple]

My poor wife, she has to listen to this crap all the time. I amuse myself pretty well. I guess sometimes you just have to look on the lighter side.

Glad some of you enjoy my sense of humor.

I was laughing out loud too, and it was in the morning so no captain in me. That was just the folgers talking I guess.

[Russell Lampron]

I don't care who you are "thats funny". :lol:

If you can't believe Miss Cleo who can you believe.

Thanks for the good laugh Matt.

Russ

[220 maple]

Hey syrup makers.
I decided to jump in even though this subject was last replied on in Early Jan. I tap alot of Red maples. I usually only get 4 weeks out of them. When they swell them buds they are making bud sap. If it drops below 17 degrees it will freeze the buds off the tree. I seen it do it several times in my 8 years of making maple syrup. Red maples seed in the spring not like sugars that seed in the summer-fall. It the reds freeze they will not seed. In the past 8 years my reds have seeded maybe three times.
I believe the major culprit of early tree budding is warm nights along with warm days an a higher sun angle. It can be 70 degrees in Dec. and Jan. but the sun sets very early therefore it very difficult for the trees to bud.
They need that extra sun light. I'm no expert by any means and I haven't stayed at Holiday Inn Express. I'm learning just like the rest. And the good lord knows I have a lot to learn. I may not drill a red this season because of bud growth, I'll let you know later. I've said in the past if I was set up I would probably tap them around christmas. Hoping I could get 8 weeks out of them like my sugars. I may tap them when my sugars go buddy so I can make more commercial syrup to trade for supplies. I hear the price is going to be real good. I got a dollar thrity a pound last year.
Mark 220 MAPLE