Transferring sap uphill

[DaveB]

Since I have my taps mostly in and I'm basically ready to go, I'm thinking about options for improving my current layout in one of my woods. Our land slopes away from the the road where our sugar house is. There are maple trees in two distinct areas and I have the larger of the areas under vacuum returning the sap to the sugar house with a releaser in the woods. The other area has a line which runs through the trees with lateral lines connected to it. It terminates in a low spot about 500' away and 25-35' lower than the sugar house. I typically collect the sap manually at both locations.

I've contemplated running a second dry line to a second releaser on the section that does not have vacuum but the number of taps and the distance make the costs add up pretty quickly. I just purchased a ShurFlo pump that I'm going to be installing in another woods and I'm hopeful that it will work fairly well. If it does, I'll consider a 12v setup and solar charger in my woods which leads me to wonder if there is a way that I can move that sap up to the sugar house with a transfer pump.

I saw this pump which indicates that it has a 30' maximum head and I'm wondering if other folks think that this might work if my slope is under 25' below the sugar house:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200352044_200352044

It would be really nice if I had all sap being returned to the sugar house!

[Ittiz]

That sounds like it's right at the limit for a vacuum to me. A water column will pull a natural vacuum at 33 feet or so. I'm pretty sure the sugar in it will make the situation worse too. So basically your pump could pump all day and it would never be able to get all the sap. You might have to pump air into the bottom reservoir periodically to push the sap up hill rather than pulling it. You'd need some kind of check valves in the sap lines in that case as well.

[DaveB]

That sounds like it's right at the limit for a vacuum to me. A water column will pull a natural vacuum at 33 feet or so. I'm pretty sure the sugar in it will make the situation worse too. So basically your pump could pump all day and it would never be able to get all the sap. You might have to pump air into the bottom reservoir periodically to push the sap up hill rather than pulling it. You'd need some kind of check valves in the sap lines in that case as well.

This isn't a vacuum pump. This is just a transfer pump with a maximum head of 30-40'. What I'm wondering is if I know it's less than 25' of folks thought that it would be able to transfer the sap from one tank in the woods to one by my sugar house. I would locate this pump in the woods to push the sap from the lower tank to the higher one.

[CampHamp]

The product manual (https://www.waynepumps.com/solution-center/utility-pumps-transfer/pc1) says you need to add a tablespoon of oil to the inlet and to the outlet to prime it. Guess you won't need any defoamer, then! :lol:

I know some people use whatever pump works for the lowest price (like sump pumps), but I think that our first requirement should be that it is food safe (look for FDA certification). This one doesn't seem to be, unless I missed something. Many utility pumps have metal parts with heavy metals or housing/impellers made of plastics with harmful BPAs and known carcinogens or industrial lubes on impeller shafts. These are obviously designed for your pool or a fish pond, but would you want your kid drinking from it? Some pumps will say "fresh water pump" but that just means it cannot handle dirty water, you still should look for an FDA stamp or at least that it is intended to be used for potable water or household plumbing.

As far as figuring out the capabilities, you can usually find a chart at each manufacturer's site that shows FLOW RATE and PRESSURE (PSI). You can see the PC1 spec sheet at that link I gave above. It looks like you'll get no flow at 38' so be careful... Sometimes companies have PSI instead of HEAD (FEET) in the chart. If so, use the chart at the bottom of this page (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-head-pressure-d_663.html) to convert HEAD FEET to PSI. In your case, 35' equals about 15psi.

A couple of extra's to consider - do you want a check valve, a screen intake, automatic shut-off at highest PSI (so you can slow or stop the flow from a valve at the shack)...

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

There is also friction loss that adds to the static head that the pump must overcome. Smaller diameter pipe has greater friction loss and loss increases with the distance sap is to be pumped. Get a gasoline powered pump and send the sap to the shed that way. It will be faster, easier and cheaper than going to pick it up.

[DaveB]

CampHump - Yeah, I stick with food grade stuff. I'm not an idiot. I'm just exploring options and trying to understand lift, etc. You second paragraph is what I was looking for. The Bosworth's and ShurFlo's are designed for potable water. I will probably look at their specs.

[Birddog]

I just ordered a shureflo pump from Northern tool. Specs say 100ft head but the pump is only rated for 198gph. They are designed for potable water. 99.99.


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[Russell Lampron]

I use a 2" gas powered water pump to move my sap 1500' with a 25' to 30' elevation change. I use a 1 1/4" pipe from the woods to the sugar house. This set up works well but could be faster with a larger transfer pipe.

[DaveB]

I just ordered a shureflo pump from Northern tool. Specs say 100ft head but the pump is only rated for 198gph. They are designed for potable water. 99.99.

The ShurFlo is the is the one that I'm going to use an area for vacuum. I could potentially have two - one for vacuum and one for lifting the sap up. They are rated for potable water.


I use a 2" gas powered water pump to move my sap 1500' with a 25' to 30' elevation change. I use a 1 1/4" pipe from the woods to the sugar house. This set up works well but could be faster with a larger transfer pipe.

I currently use a gas powered pump too but it's a two step process for me - once into a sap tank in the back of my truck and then again into my main tank. I'm hoping I can automate the process and put a float switch on a pump and pump the sap uphill to save me a step. The larger diameter is interesting to me because I was thinking the larger the diameter the heavier the column of sap would be to move but what you guys are saying is that it's the opposite of what I would have thought.

Great info guys and I appreciate the info/suggestions!

[BreezyHill]

If the pump is rated for 30 and you are at 25 you will not have much flow at the outlet when you add in the friction loss of the pipeing.

Funny how where we want our sugar houses the trees would rather it be else where.

[Russell Lampron]

I currently use a gas powered pump too but it's a two step process for me - once into a sap tank in the back of my truck and then again into my main tank. I'm hoping I can automate the process and put a float switch on a pump and pump the sap uphill to save me a step. The larger diameter is interesting to me because I was thinking the larger the diameter the heavier the column of sap would be to move but what you guys are saying is that it's the opposite of what I would have thought.

Great info guys and I appreciate the info/suggestions!

There is less restriction to flow with the larger pipe. I originally used a 1" pipe and had a huge decrease in the time that it took to pump my tank out when I went to the 1 1/4" pipe. I have 2 gas pumps. The 2" that I leave at the woods tank and just bring gas down when it's time to pump and a 1" pump at the sugar house to empty the gathering tank there.

I don't leave my transfer pipe full of sap. I drain it back when I'm done pumping and haul that back up to the sugar house. 1500' of 1 1/4" pipe holds about 110 gallons of sap.

[DaveB]

If the pump is rated for 30 and you are at 25 you will not have much flow at the outlet when you add in the friction loss of the pipeing.

Funny how where we want our sugar houses the trees would rather it be else where.

It looks like the ShurFlo 2088 might be OK if I'm reading this chart on page 2 correctly:

http://www.shurflo.com/files/RV-Product-Data-Sheets/Classic-Series-Pumps/Classic%20Pump%20-%20pds-2088-422-144_444_.pdf

Using that chart and the chart that CampHump linked to, it looks like at 25-35' I'd have about 2 GPM. I think that would OK since I'm just trying to save going into the woods to either pump out a tank or start a pump. If I put out a 20 gallon stainless tank, the pump would run for 5-10 minutes drawing about 4 amps. I need to run some numbers and see what my costs would be vs. continuing to do what I'm going now.

My only other concern now is the sap that would be in the line. Russ brings up a good point about the line holding about 100 gallons of sap. Now, my line would only be about 500' long and I'd probably use 1/2" tubing to match the pump, but that's still a quantity of sap. Looking at the table on this site (http://www.firefightermath.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=211), it looks like it would be about 10 gallons. I'm wondering if I should put in a check valve to prevent the constant mixing of old sap? That way it would always push out the "oldest" sap and replace it with "fresher" sap.

[CampHamp]

I'm wondering if I should put in a check valve to prevent the constant mixing of old sap?
These have built-in check valves. They can be easily removed, but "officially", that voids the warranty. You can read how to do it by referring to the check valve replacement kit instructions.

I left my check valve in place and setup a quick-connect on the outlet and just let the sap come back down. I guess I could bucket this back-flow amount up the hill. Maybe late in the season, when more worried about spoilage...

[lpakiz]

There's another issue with leaving sap in the pump-out line. Early in the season, it will freeze and you can't pump out again until it thaws. Hanging it from wire might be the answer, so it doesn't develop any dips to trap sap....

[Machinist67]

if you are using a submersible pump, drill a small hole (1/4") in the discharge line and when the pump is shut off it will drain back to the tank and will not void the warranty