Phaneuf Air Tight Arch

[treehugger]

Did anyone else receive a Patrick Phaneuf air-tight front arch this year? Mine has a blower with it (549cfm from D&G) and i am having problems with it. And just want to get some advice from others. The problem i am having is when the door is shut, the fire and boil in the pan dies down. If i crack the door open the fire roars, but i feel i may be losing too much heat out of the stack. I did not get the evap rate i was expecting for this rig 2x8 raised,preheater with hoods. It drafts well. Any other people with this set up or something similar i would like to hear how you overcame it. Thanks.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I don't have anything similar, so can't help you there. What was your evap rate? I would guess it would be around 50 GPH. From the sounds of what you described, cracking the door made for a better fire. My guess is you aren't getting enough air from the blower.

[nymapleguy607]

Sounds like your arch is pressurizing and the blower can't overcome that pressure. Is the blower running wide open? If so you might need to slow it down and it might work better. One of those cases where less is more.

[treehugger]

I don't have anything similar, so can't help you there. What was your evap rate? I would guess it would be around 50 GPH. From the sounds of what you described, cracking the door made for a better fire. My guess is you aren't getting enough air from the blower.

Once up and boiling, my sap tank emptied 35gal/hr for 2 hours then had to slow it down for finishing. My thought exactly, not getting enough air.

[treehugger]

If the arch pressurized, would air/smoke come out of the door? But i will try to slow the blower down and give it a try.

[nymapleguy607]

If the arch is presssurized opening the door would depressurize the firebox and then let more air come in and create a hotter burning fire. If you are firing with the blower running when you open the door it should blow air and smoke out the door. If its air tight you won't get air out of the front when its closed up.

[bowhunter]

I don't have any experience with your evaporator, but I do have a lot of industrial furnace and boiler experience and here's what I would suggest.

1. If you open the door with the blower running and it draws air in through the door without smoke coming out then the arch isn't pressurized and the blower probably isn't too large.
2. If it's not boiling enough with the door closed then it may not be getting enough air.
3. Either the blower is too small or there may be some restriction in the air handling system, either into the blower or from the blower into the arch.
4. The arch is designed to be very efficient and it probably isn't designed to fire at the maximum rate with the door closed so it may burn harder with the door open.
5. With the door open you are losing some heat up the stack, but it's a trade off between boil rate and efficiency until you figure out what's wrong.
6. If this is a brand new design for Patrick, it's possible there's some design flaw, but not too likely.

[BAP]

This may be a odd question, but is the blower turning the right direction? Also are you feeding the firebox with air thru one big opening or are you using a pipe with many holes type of setup?

[Sugarmaker]

Is there a damper in between the blower and arch?
Blower size sounds right for that size rig, maybe even a little bigger than needed.
Try calling Patrick?
Regards,
Chris

[nymapleguy607]

Treehugger do you have any pictures of the inside of the firebox? How does the air get introduced to the arch, under the grates or through pipes? Is the blower a squirel cage blower or a high pressure blower?

[nymapleguy607]

Treehugger,

I went back and read your thread about how to brick the arch, from what I read your air is injected on the bottom of the firebox through 3 pipes approx. 3" x 3" and then it comes through smaller nipples. What size are the smaller pipes? I am guessing the blower that came with it is a low pressure blower and that the blower doesn't create enough static pressure to overcome the restriction of the nozzles. I believe the hole size for most low pressure AUF blowers is around 3/4" to cut down on the restriction.

[Super Sapper]

Could you be plugging the grates with the way you are adding wood?

[treehugger]

This may be a odd question, but is the blower turning the right direction? Also are you feeding the firebox with air thru one big opening or are you using a pipe with many holes type of setup?

3 pipes with smaller air tubes. Yes the blower is correct position.

[treehugger]

No grates. Cement floor.

[treehugger]

The air injectors tubes are near 7/16"

[treehugger]

It is a dayton 549 cfm cage type blower. From DG.

[treehugger]

Treehugger do you have any pictures of the inside of the firebox? How does the air get introduced to the arch, under the grates or through pipes? Is the blower a squirel cage blower or a high pressure blower?

What is a high pressure blower?

[treehugger]

902290229022
What is a high pressure blower?tried attaching pic. Having trouble. Will keep trying.

[jrmaple]

Did you do the bricking or did Pat? I have a 2x8, but not from Pat, and with no blowers or preheaters, I can average 40 gph and reach about 52 as a high with the right draft, on a boggy, slow day about 27-30 gph, but my arch is bricked and insulated different than yours. My firebox is shorter and it ramps up fast to get real close to the flues. Like they said, I would try turning the blower down; also what size stack are you using? A bigger stack might be better... Good luck.

[nymapleguy607]

Treehugger,
A high pressure blower has large paddles thet sling the air. They are capable of producing pressures of 5" water column, where a cage blower might only produce a 1/4" water column. They are similar to the blowers used in dust collectors. Looking at the layout in the fire box I am thinking that the blower is not the right kind for that job. Air is getting under your fire but it lacks velocity to create a ripping hot fire. Try just turning the blower on without a fire and feel the air coming through those nozzles, if the air is moving slow with little or no pressure I would think about changing blowers. You could even use an electric leaf blower if you can't find a cheap high pressure blower

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

If you are firing with the blower running when you open the door it should blow air and smoke out the door. If its air tight you won't get air out of the front when its closed up.
Not true, my "home made gasification airtight arch, I leave blowers on and nothing comes out front unless I knock some back towards the door when loading or stirring the embers around before loading.

Like Glen Goodrich said at a seminar once "if your man enough to leave the blowers going do it, you want to keep the heat consistent in the arch, if you shut blowers off when loading you create the surging of sap"

My question to the original question what size stack do you have on your rig? anything smaller than 10" I would say is under sized and then yes what nymapleguy said would be true.

[nymapleguy607]

Not true, my "home made gasification airtight arch, I leave blowers on and nothing comes out front unless I knock some back towards the door when loading or stirring the embers around before loading.

Like Glen Goodrich said at a seminar once "if your man enough to leave the blowers going do it, you want to keep the heat consistent in the arch, if you shut blowers off when loading you create the surging of sap"

My question to the original question what size stack do you have on your rig? anything smaller than 10" I would say is under sized and then yes what nymapleguy said would be true.

Sorry I wasn't clear, maybe blowing is too strong of a word. I fire with the blower running on my arch as well, I get a little bit of ash that blows out of the arch when you load the wood in. It should not push fire or lots of smoke out. That would be a not enough draft problem.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Sorry I wasn't clear, maybe blowing is too strong of a word. I fire with the blower running on my arch as well, I get a little bit of ash that blows out of the arch when you load the wood in. It should not push fire or lots of smoke out. That would be a not enough draft problem.
yes the same here,

[treehugger]

Not true, my "home made gasification airtight arch, I leave blowers on and nothing comes out front unless I knock some back towards the door when loading or stirring the embers around before loading.

Like Glen Goodrich said at a seminar once "if your man enough to leave the blowers going do it, you want to keep the heat consistent in the arch, if you shut blowers off when loading you create the surging of sap"

My question to the original question what size stack do you have on your rig? anything smaller than 10" I would say is under sized and then yes what nymapleguy said would be true.

10" is what i have. If i crack the door open the fire is crazy hot. But im not sure thats how it should be running.

[treehugger]

I did that bricking per Pat's instructions.

[mellondome]

From looking at your picture, you are not getting enough air in your firebox. You have 15 7/16" holes . That is barely enough to keep wood on fire. Think about the volume of air required for the fire to burn. You would need to push some VERY high pressures to get close to the volume of air required to boil.

I run a 2x6 with open grates. I have a 650 cfm blower plumbed into the area inder the grates with no restrictions. Yes... If I dont turn it off to fire.. it will burn everything within 3feet of the door when it gets opened up.


You need to either get a high presdure blower (which still might not work) or increase your hole count be a lot... probable a hole every 2 inches at least.

[Big_Eddy]

EDIT" Obviously mellondome and I were typing at the same time :) "

I'm not overly familiar with air under fire arches, but looking at the pictures, you will definitely need a high pressure blower to get enough air for a hot fire.

As suggested earlier, turn on the blowers without a fire and feel the air flow. It will need to be whistling through those holes to get a good fire.

Typically, without a blower, I'd design with an opening equal to stack size to get a good draft and good fire. With a low pressure blower, half the area of the stack.

For a 10" stack, that equates to 75sq in without a blower, ~35 sq in with a low pressure blower. By my math, with 15 holes @ 7/16" you have 2.25 sq in of nozzle area so the arch is definitely designed for high pressure air under fire.

Could be you have the wrong blower type.

[lpakiz]

On my home made 2-10 Intensofire, I started with about 24 holes at 3/8 diameter, coming out of 3X3 inch square tube grates. It wasn't nearly enough, even with a pretty good paddle blower. After the second boil, I drilled about 50 more. Now it's just right. If you are flowing air thru 7/16 diameter pipe nozzles, restriction is much more then just letting it exit a thin-wall (3/16 thick) tube.
We regulate the air flow with a control damper, and go from wide open grate air after filling with wood, until the stack approaches 800, then shut down to about 30% to keep at 800. During the firing cycle, more grate air is added to maintain 800, until we are back at full grate air. When the temp falls to about 650 at full grate air, we are out of wood and time to reload. It just about requires a full- time, undestracted fireman.
I have a 12 inch stack, maybe 12 feet taller than the arch. I have to shut off the blower to load, probably would help with more stack, but that brings on more issues, so 12 foot is what I'm sticking with.

[treehugger]

On my home made 2-10 Intensofire, I started with about 24 holes at 3/8 diameter, coming out of 3X3 inch square tube grates. It wasn't nearly enough, even with a pretty good paddle blower. If you are flowing air thru long, 7/16 diameter nozzles, restriction is much more a factor. After the second boil, I drilled about 50 more. Now it's just right.
We regulate the air flow with a control damper, and go from wide open after filling with wood until the stack approaches 800, then shut down to about 30% to keep at 800. During the firing cycle, more grate air is added to maintain 800, until we are back at full grate air. When the temp falls to about 650 at full grate air, depending on coal build-up, we are out of wood and time to reload.
I have a 12 inch stack, maybe 12 feet taller than the arch. I have to shut off the blower to load, probably would help with more stack, but that brings on more issues, so 12 foot is what I'm sticking with.

This is what i have been trying to explain to Patrick. I feel the fore box is air starved. He is insistent it is a draft problem, but i know its not. I feel the injectors need to be reconfigured as you stated. More of the injectors or higher pressure blower. The retailer bought the blower and delivered it to Pat. None of this was supposed to be an issue. Now that the thing is set up, i dont know how to fix it. I wish Patrick would come to me to fix it!

[nymapleguy607]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-15-16-High-Pressure-Direct-Drive-Radial-Blade-Blower-HVAC-/370957054542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565ec3724e#ht_1650wt_1074

If you wanted to change blowers I would go with this one. You would need a 1/2 hp 3450rpm motor. This is the same blower I run on my 2x6 arch and it feeds the AOF and AUF. It produces about 5" water column.

[GeneralStark]

Is this a brand new design of his? Are you the first to use one of these rigs? It would seem to me that if he designed it, he should have tested it before selling this style of rig. There is more to it than just hooking up a blower to some holes in the bottom of the firebox.

[lpakiz]

So you say that you have a cast refractory floor for a grate? That's tough, but could you hammer-drill more holes in it, then drill the steel floor with a metal drill or tapered bridge reamer? Make them 5/8 or so, might keep a lot of cinders from falling thru. You might consider hammering out the whole floor, add more, bigger nozzles and re-cast the floor.
You shouldn't have to deal with this on a new rig, but the reality is that the only way you can fix this in time to keep on with the season is to do it yourself, in place. And you should be compensated.
The suggestion to replace the blower with more pressure and capacity might also work, but who is going to stand the cost of that? If the manufacturer will, then go for this option first, as this is relatively painless for you.

[treehugger]

Is this a brand new design of his? Are you the first to use one of these rigs? It would seem to me that if he designed it, he should have tested it before selling this style of rig. There is more to it than just hooking up a blower to some holes in the bottom of the firebox.

Patrick said it has been tested and that others have similar rigs. That is why I started this thread tot talk to the others.

[treehugger]

If i did that without having welded tubes coming out of the manifolds, do you think the air would rise or escape around the hole? Because I was thinking of that.

[mellondome]

Is the pipe fully cast in the refractory?

I would use a masonry bit and a hammerdrill and drill them out. If you do loose a little air because it is not nippled it will still be better than where you are now.

[nymapleguy607]

If i did that without having welded tubes coming out of the manifolds, do you think the air would rise or escape around the hole? Because I was thinking of that.
You would be okay not welding the tubes. On my arch the air comes under the grates at the vack wall of the arch then it goes up through drilled firebrick, nothing special.

[lpakiz]

Whoops, treehugger, I missed the 3X3 tube thing until I re-read the whole thread. Could you add the extra nozzles in line with the existing ones, so you tap into the manifold? How about using a bridge reamer and removing most, if not all the existing metal in the existing holes, thus enlarging the holes?
I have stated in other posts that you don't need much air under the fire to make things rumble, but you do need SOME and 15 holes at 7/16 doesn't seem, to me at least, to be enough. It would be interesting to hear from other owners of this style. Perhaps the manu could give you some references of other satisfied users?

[rayi]

I have the same set up except its a 2 by 6. Mine has the traditional metal grates and did not come with a blower. I added a squril cage blower I went to Sugar bush supplies and they had a manifold set up that was cheaper than I could make. The opening to the firebox is almost as wide as the fire box and 2 inches tall. I cut a hole that size in the back of the firebox and attached the manifold and blower. I have not used this execpt test boil. With the door closed and the fan on high I can boil like I have never seen before. Of course I have never seen a evaporator until I owned one. I think when I finally get sap I will fine tune how much air goes in with a rheostat to find a sweet spot. Using just plain water and firing ever 5 minues with dry hard wood I boiled close to 40 gallons. You should be doing more than that

[treehugger]

I have the same set up except its a 2 by 6. Mine has the traditional metal grates and did not come with a blower. I added a squril cage blower I went to Sugar bush supplies and they had a manifold set up that was cheaper than I could make. The opening to the firebox is almost as wide as the fire box and 2 inches tall. I cut a hole that size in the back of the firebox and attached the manifold and blower. I have not used this execpt test boil. With the door closed and the fan on high I can boil like I have never seen before. Of course I have never seen a evaporator until I owned one. I think when I finally get sap I will fine tune how much air goes in with a rheostat to find a sweet spot. Using just plain water and firing ever 5 minues with dry hard wood I boiled close to 40 gallons. You should be doing more than that

I agree. Patrick said when my sugar content goes up i will see higher evap rates. Though i feel when i get higher sugar i will get higher syrup volumes but the evap rate will stay roughly the same.

[mellondome]

Is there any air over fire nozzles in this phenuf arch? That would be the only way it would work with what you have. Gasification style

[treehugger]

Is the pipe fully cast in the refractory?

I would use a masonry bit and a hammerdrill and drill them out. If you do loose a little air because it is not nippled it will still be better than where you are now.

The tubes have sand under them for support, then laid blanket and brick followed by 1/12 " refractory cement.

[treehugger]

Is there any air over fire nozzles in this phenuf arch? That would be the only way it would work with what you have. Gasification style

No air over fire.

[treehugger]

I have the same set up except its a 2 by 6. Mine has the traditional metal grates and did not come with a blower. I added a squril cage blower I went to Sugar bush supplies and they had a manifold set up that was cheaper than I could make. The opening to the firebox is almost as wide as the fire box and 2 inches tall. I cut a hole that size in the back of the firebox and attached the manifold and blower. I have not used this execpt test boil. With the door closed and the fan on high I can boil like I have never seen before. Of course I have never seen a evaporator until I owned one. I think when I finally get sap I will fine tune how much air goes in with a rheostat to find a sweet spot. Using just plain water and firing ever 5 minues with dry hard wood I boiled close to 40 gallons. You should be doing more than that

I have no doubt that once the air/fire issue is resolved it will boil like crazy. But kind of thought i would not have to trouble shoot on a brand new rig.

[mellondome]

The blanket will give you issues drilling. I would take a day and break up the refractory... drill the pipe and brick.. and there is no need for the blanket in the botton. Repour refractory.

[lpakiz]

I'm not buying the "when you have sap, it will boil better" idea. Nope, not at all! If he says other users are satisfied, I would ask for names, or have those users call you, if they are satisfied, and so inclined. Most folks who are pleased with a product are more than happy to endorse it. Heck, even brag about it.
I like melondomes ideas here. You shouldn't have to do this and should be compensated if you are successful.

I had another thought here. Hard to prove or disprove this, but could there be restrictions somewhere in the air delivery system? Perhaps an access hole from one tube to the next was cut small, or missed entirely in manufacturing. The air flow test could help here.....but still think 15 holes are not enough.

[treehugger]

I'm not buying the "when you have sap, it will boil better" idea. Nope, not at all! If he says other users are satisfied, I would ask for names, or have those users call you, if they are satisfied, and so inclined. Most folks who are pleased with a product are more than happy to endorse it. Heck, even brag about it.
I like melondomes ideas here. You shouldn't have to do this and should be compensated if you are successful.

I had another thought here. Hard to prove or disprove this, but could there be restrictions somewhere in the air delivery system? Perhaps an access hole from one tube to the next was cut small, or missed entirely in manufacturing. The air flow test could help here.....but still think 15 holes are not enough.

Good thought but I checked everything. No blockage.

[bowhunter]

You're right you're boiling water and the boil rate will be about the same regardless of the sugar content. It sounds like the air system just isn't designed correctly. If the blower is sized correctly and there are no restrictions then you don't have enough hole area in the air piping. Are you sure there isn't a damper of some sort on the air piping or blower intake? I think I would run the the door open temporarily and try to get Patrick to fix the problem. Big Eddy did some sizing for you if you wanted to modify the existing distribution piping or have someone fabricate a new one.

[treehugger]

You're right you're boiling water and the boil rate will be about the same regardless of the sugar content. It sounds like the air system just isn't designed correctly. If the blower is sized correctly and there are no restrictions then you don't have enough hole area in the air piping. Are you sure there isn't a damper of some sort on the air piping or blower intake? I think I would run the the door open temporarily and try to get Patrick to fix the problem. Big Eddy did some sizing for you if you wanted to modify the existing distribution piping or have someone fabricate a new one.

I will have to run with the door open for now. I am adding more flue pipe per Patrick's recommendation. That will bring it up to 16'. After that I'm on my own unfortunately. Patrick also said that a barometric damper could help. I think it's what everyone else is saying, not enough air in firebox.

[mellondome]

With a blower.. extra stack is wasted money...it will only help if you are on natural draft system.
Dampers are only used on gas/oil burning arches.

[Brian Ryther]

I will have to run with the door open for now. I am adding more flue pipe per Patrick's recommendation. That will bring it up to 16'. After that I'm on my own unfortunately. Patrick also said that a barometric damper could help. I think it's what everyone else is saying, not enough air in firebox.
I am of the school of thought that the stack needs to be 2x the arch. I run 30' of 24" stack with my 16' evap. It will help with draft, just like opening the door.

[Big_Eddy]

Brian. More stack equals more draft but only if there is a way for air to get in. With the OPs arch there is no way for enough air to enter so more stack won't help. Unfortunately the open door sounds like his only solution until he can add holes or install a higher pressure blower.

[Brian Ryther]

Brian. More stack equals more draft but only if there is a way for air to get in. With the OPs arch there is no way for enough air to enter so more stack won't help. Unfortunately the open door sounds like his only solution until he can add holes or install a higher pressure blower.
Doors open adds cold air to the front of the arch under the pans, not under the fire where it needs to be. This will cause cold spots in the front of the syrup pan. Disrupting the sugar gradient. Leading to the potential of a burnt pan.

[treehugger]

I am of the school of thought that the stack needs to be 2x the arch. I run 30' of 24" stack with my 16' evap. It will help with draft, just like opening the door.

I gonna try the 2x the stack thing. If that don't work Patrick would need to come here with his welder and re-do something. I hear he is a man who stands by his product and name. We will see. Whether he does good or bad by me. Everyone's going to hear about it. I am remaining optimistic.

[mellondome]

I am of the school of thought that the stack needs to be 2x the arch. I run 30' of 24" stack with my 16' evap. It will help with draft, just like opening the door.

He has no where to draft from without opening the door. The only place he can get air is from 15 holes that are connected to a blower. 200 ft of stack wont help that issue

[treehugger]

He has no where to draft from without opening the door. The only place he can get air is from 15 holes that are connected to a blower. 200 ft of stack wont help that issue
Maybe it will help air move through the tubes? Wishfully thinking on my part but that's what Patrick says will fix it.

[lpakiz]

If you want the manufacturer to stand behind his product, it seems to me that you will need to install the length of stack that he calls for. Even tho I don't believe it will help, that is the procedure he calls for, and you can't expect him to modify his design until you meet his conditions.
If that fails, then more modifications will be needed, either by the manu or by the owner. I guess you are right-until the manufacturer responds, you'll need run with the door open. If you go ahead and modify the unit, he will have no further obligation to help you.

[bowhunter]

I just did a little bit of math last night. You have 9 square inches of holes. If you do all the math and look at the blower at maximum pressure it will pump about 350 cfm at a pressure of 0.8 inches of water. The velocity through the holes would be 100 feet per second to pass that much air. There's no way 0.8 inches of water pressure will create 100 feet per second of velocity....defies the laws of physics. I must be confused....there must be some other path for air into the evaporator from the blower besides the distributer? If not there's a huge mismatch between the blower and the air distributer.

[treehugger]

I just did a little bit of math last night. You have 9 square inches of holes. If you do all the math and look at the blower at maximum pressure it will pump about 350 cfm at a pressure of 0.8 inches of water. The velocity through the holes would be 100 feet per second to pass that much air. There's no way 0.8 inches of water pressure will create 100 feet per second of velocity....defies the laws of physics. I must be confused....there must be some other path for air into the evaporator from the blower besides the distributer? If not there's a huge mismatch between the blower and the air distributer.

That's it. No other source of air besides cracking the door open. Nice math by the way. I knew I wasn't crazy and that there is something wrong.

[lpakiz]

Bowhunter, I checked your math. If he has 15 holes at 7/16 diameter, I get 2 1/4 square inches--MUCH worse even than the 9 square inches you show. Or did I misunderstand the statistics?

[treehugger]

I wish I would have got what I was expecting. That is grates with air tight front and blower. None of this nonsense.

[mapleack]

If it's an airtight arch it will perform the same with 2 ft of stack or 20 ft of stack. It sound like you need a higher pressure blower and probably more air holes as well.

[treehugger]

I sent Patrick a message that I would like grates. Relatively easy for me to get rid of the air injectors and add the grates. All of the firebox problems would be solved by this. There is a draft door that serves no purpose currently.

[bowhunter]

You're right. I forgot to divide the diameter by 2 when I was calculating the area last night. It's only 2 1/4 square inches.

[nymapleguy607]

If you are in a pinch, rather than boiling with the door open go to lowes or home depot and get a cheap electric leaf blower and adapt that to where the blower installs. They will work, thats how I originally tried AOF before buying they high pressure blower. If partick sends you grates then you can change over but you might decide to get a high pressure blower and run it that way.

[treehugger]

Where did you find a high pressure blower?

[mellondome]

Ebay and look for a regenerative blower. You could also use a shop dust collector/blower. This is what I'm using in my AOF. You should be able to get something for under $100.

With a regenerative blower pushing 20" wster column, still not sure if that is enough air. Will have to refer that to the mathematicians on here .

[nymapleguy607]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-15-16-High-Pressure-Direct-Drive-Radial-Blade-Blower-HVAC-/370957054542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565ec3724e#ht_1650wt_1074

If you wanted to change blowers I would go with this one. You would need a 1/2 hp 3450rpm motor. This is the same blower I run on my 2x6 arch and it feeds the AOF and AUF. It produces about 5" water column.

Here is one like I have

[treehugger]

Here is one like I have

Thanks I appreciate the information.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Will need a motor to run that blower on Ebay. I have 2 of them, one for my arch and one for the Steamaway and they are both mounted outside.

[bowhunter]

A high pressure fan is a step in the right direction, but I can't find any performance data on these fans so there's no way I can determine how much improvement it would make. It might generate 3-4 times more air flow than the existing fan and maybe that's enough. I don't really think you're getting much more than a whisper with the existing fan.

[mellondome]

For reference, my corn/pellet burning boiler has a 12" diameter burn pot. The only air source is a blower with 12 holes over the fire and 8 under the fire. They are 3/8" holes.

You need to provide air for roughly 6-8 times that burn surface.

High pressure blower is a step in the right direction, but you will still need more holes.

[treehugger]

For reference, my corn/pellet burning boiler has a 12" diameter burn pot. The only air source is a blower with 12 holes over the fire and 8 under the fire. They are 3/8" holes.

You need to provide air for roughly 6-8 times that burn surface.

High pressure blower is a step in the right direction, but you will still need more holes.

Thats what i am afraid of. If so, i hope Patrick does the right thing and comes to my place and makes necessary adjustments. I know the other companies would.

[Moser's Maple]

This is what i have been trying to explain to Patrick. I feel the fore box is air starved. He is insistent it is a draft problem, but i know its not. I feel the injectors need to be reconfigured as you stated. More of the injectors or higher pressure blower. The retailer bought the blower and delivered it to Pat. None of this was supposed to be an issue. Now that the thing is set up, i dont know how to fix it. I wish Patrick would come to me to fix it!

This was brought to my attention and 100% agree. It's not the pan makers fault......it's the retailer that bought the blower. you need a real high pressure blower. you have a beautiful looking rig, so why go cheap with a leaf blower. talk to the guy that installed the blower, or who gave Patrick the blower. It's not a design issue, it's a blower issue.

[treehugger]

I am caught in the middle. And the problem remains.

[mapleack]

Treehugger, have you read this research? http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Combustion.pdf It might help you. Ultimately you're just not getting enough air, you probably are going to want to redo the arch for next year and add in air over fire delivery to get get enough combustion air and more efficiency. I think it's nuts if patrick is selling arch designs that haven't been test fired first before selling a bunch.

[mellondome]

So.. are you going to wait on patrick or boil syrup this year? Is he at least trying to help?

I know he makes beautiful pans.. but he has a reputation of late delivery.. hope he doesnt mess up your season.

[treehugger]

I'll boil this year. Patrick has assured me it's a draft problem and a low sugar sap issue. So I will jump through the hoops, spend more money on another section of stack and see what happens. That's all he has offered to help with so far. If this doesn't do the trick I will ask that he fix the problem. I'll have to fire this air tight arch with the door open I guess. In the mean time I will look for a high pressure fan. I just feel I shouldn't have to be dealing with this. You know what I mean? I will keep the forum informed on how this turns out. If I were the manufacturer I would make sure things were taken care of.

[treehugger]

Treehugger, have you read this research? http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Combustion.pdf It might help you. Ultimately you're just not getting enough air, you probably are going to want to redo the arch for next year and add in air over fire delivery to get get enough combustion air and more efficiency. I think it's nuts if patrick is selling arch designs that haven't been test fired first before selling a bunch.

Yeah I'll either have to add AOF or take the easy way out and tear the air injector system out and add grates some how. Bottom line is it is work I should have to do after spending what I just spent on this. And to add insult to injury I had to pay an extra $400 for the blower and rheostat.

[Spanielslovesappin]

Treehugger,

I feel for you!

Their is no way stack will solve this problem, but you can not go and start changing things until PP has had a chance to make it right.

I suspect that you just need a regenerative blower, you are not getting anywhere near the air you need with your current blower; thats step one. How you ended up with the LP blower you have makes little sense but Pat should get you set up with a high pressure blower. If the blower alone is not enough then you will need to add more holes as everyone mentions or get grates and let your existing blower provide air under.

This just does not set right with me and raises my blood pressure as my PP finishing pan has welds that keep cracking out and are just not that hot to begin with. I am done with his products; in your case its almost as though he does not understand how an arch works...

Good luck!

[treehugger]

Treehugger,

I feel for you!

Their is no way stack will solve this problem, but you can not go and start changing things until PP has had a chance to make it right.

I suspect that you just need a regenerative blower, you are not getting anywhere near the air you need with your current blower; thats step one. How you ended up with the LP blower you have makes little sense but Pat should get you set up with a high pressure blower. If the blower alone is not enough then you will need to add more holes as everyone mentions or get grates and let your existing blower provide air under.

This just does not set right with me and raises my blood pressure as my PP finishing pan has welds that keep cracking out and are just not that hot to begin with. I am done with his products; in your case its almost as though he does not understand how an arch works...

Good luck!

That's too bad about your welds. I think Patrick is a nice guy. I'm giving him his chance to make it better. I agree with you 200% though, more air required. Thanks for chiming in.

[treehugger]

I swapped that cage blower for my kid's bouncy house blower. Big difference. Ash blowing, tubes whistling. Now have to test fire it. Do you think my kids will be able to tell the difference in the bouncy house with that cage blower? Lol. 9059

[heus]

Treehugger,

I feel for you!

Their is no way stack will solve this problem, but you can not go and start changing things until PP has had a chance to make it right.

I suspect that you just need a regenerative blower, you are not getting anywhere near the air you need with your current blower; thats step one. How you ended up with the LP blower you have makes little sense but Pat should get you set up with a high pressure blower. If the blower alone is not enough then you will need to add more holes as everyone mentions or get grates and let your existing blower provide air under.

This just does not set right with me and raises my blood pressure as my PP finishing pan has welds that keep cracking out and are just not that hot to begin with. I am done with his products; in your case its almost as though he does not understand how an arch works...

Good luck!
First time I've ever heard of a bad Phaneuf weld.

[nymapleguy607]

I swapped that cage blower for my kid's bouncy house blower. Big difference. Ash blowing, tubes whistling. Now have to test fire it. Do you think my kids will be able to tell the difference in the bouncy house with that cage blower? Lol. 9059
I'm glad you found a better blower. That is going to make a huge difference, just be prepared when you start making syrup because there will be a lot more heat under the pans now.

[mellondome]

Have we test boiled with the new blower yet?

[treehugger]

So I test boiled today with water. I got things up to speed and measured water consumption for 1 hour. Before I say results I'll explain what I changed.
1- changed blower
2- built up under the flue pan. No I have an 18" "plateau" under the flue pan. There was only a ramp before.
3- restricted outflow, I built up bricks to allow 8" of exhaust escape versus 12-14" the way it was.

So the water consumption for an hour was 70-75 gallons. That with firing under a moderate reloading rate. Still have to fine tune my technique but WOW. What a difference. Thanks for all the help.

[Spanielslovesappin]

Awesome Treehugger!

Congratulations on your tuning! :)

[treehugger]

Thanks. And also that was using soft Maple. Saving the locust and hickory for the good stuff.