Single XLE 4040 Build

[skinny78]

OK, I have read numerous post about building a RO and I think I have enough information to be dangerous. I am going to post what components I plan on using and let you guys tell me what I am doing wrong before I pull the trigger. I have talked to Joe at Alantic RO and he is quoting the following components to get me started.

Alantic RO Quote
1 XLE-4040 Membrane $225.00
1 PV4040SS SS Housing $128.00
PX05-20 Prefilters 20 $3.70 $74.00
1 #20 Blue Housing w/pr $35.50
150578 Pentair Bracket for #20 housing $3.80
Spanner Wrench $2.80
Procon Pump 115B265F31BA 200 (w/pr 250 psi limit ) $200.00 275GPH Max 200PSI
P-Motor 3/4 hp $134.00
P-Clamp $1.50
Freight?


I need recommendations on a pre-charge pump. I will be purchasing miscellaneous fittings and flow gauges online and some locally.

[TunbridgeDave]

Going through Joe is definitely the right way to start. I only paid 120 though for the 330 gph procon. You really don't need the pressure release. As far as the feed pump, a 1/2 hp shallow well pump or pool pump would be adequate. With that size and your 3/4hp for the procon, you can add a second membrane down the road. One thing you should add is a pressure switch (like a well pump switch), after the sediment filter and before the pressure pump. This will shut the machine off if you run out of sap or if the filter gets clogged starving the pressure pump. It also makes it easy for rinsing. You can run your permeate through and go to bed knowing it will shut off when it's done.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

Skinny 78,

Looks like you are on the right road! I just recieved my XLE this morning and to my surprise I need to spend a little more money to adapt it to my pressure vessel. After talking with Joe I purchased the same housing you did to make my life easier. I need a membrane with female ends or "cut ends" as Joe explained, as far as I could find the only membrane out there was the Fluid System brand, which I found, to need more pressure than I wanted to deal with. This way I can add more membranes to the system and have them all look the same. I picked up some 10 GPM flowmeters from Freshwater Systems for around $45 a piece ( Hydronix PFM-210). I know this will be to small for the rig I have, but it will help with the oil bill for this year, beats dishing out 8 to 15 G's for the size I need. when I get up to 2500 to 3500 taps in the future then I will consider an upgrade. I can chew through 300 gals. of raw sap in two hrs and 16 gals of oil, any little bit will help.

Good luck!

[skinny78]

I am looking at a few shallow well pumps for the pre charge pump and notice that they come with a pressure switch. I don't think I want that pump kicking on and off when it hits the preset pressure. Should I disable that switch or will the pressure get too high?


What do you guys think of this pump?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump-w-Pressure-Switch-Dual-Voltage-/390606337700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af1f3b6a4

I have changed my mind to this pump, the above pump is cast iron.
http://www.flotecpump.com/ResidentialProduct_fl_ut_wt_FP5112.aspx

[bowhunter]

I know Joe always recommends XLE's but the NF 90 is a better choice for maple sap. Don't take my word for it look at the Dow tech sheet link that I got off Atlantic RO's website. Dow makes both membranes. The NF 90 is quite a bit more expensive, but it will pass at least 30% more permeate at the same pressure as the same size XLE. When you look at the spec's the XLE 4040 is rated at 2600 GPD vs 2000 for the NF90 4040 however the XLE is rated at 100 psi and the NF 90 is rated at 70 PSI. This makes a big difference. http://atlanticro.com/1.FilmTecMapleSheet.pdf

You will need a couple of flow meters. You may be able to get by without any kind of feed pump if you can elevate the RO feed tank 2-3 feet above the pump. I think the pump is capable of about 6 feet of lift as long as it is always liquid full. If you go this route it may be difficult to find a pressure switch with a setting down to 0.5 psi or so.

[mellondome]

If you dont use a feed pump, dont put the filter before the pressure pump. You will end up starving your pressure pump as the filter plugs up. Others have done this and most now have a feed pump. The feed pump will also allow you to reach higher membrane pressures.

You can get pump cheaper than filling up your truck . Dont step over a dollar to pick up a dime.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-8420-square-d-pumptrol-well-tank-pressure-switch-with-low-pressure-cut-off.aspx?utm_source=Googlebase&utm_medium=Feed&utm_campaign=Product&utm_term=9013FSG2J21M4&gclid=CJHCibG87bwCFURk7AodSUkAtQ

low pressure cut out im am using right now that controls feed pump I have a
PB10C7

P10BC-7C JOHNSON CONTROLS PRESSURE CONTROL for the high pressure

http://www.ceramaterials.com/ceramicfiberblanket.html

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0&_nkw=A19ABC-39C&_sacat=0&_from=R40

[TunbridgeDave]

This is where I got my flow meters.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-FLOWMETER-ROTAMETER-0-5-gpm-/390410116610.

Not sure about the NF 90 being better. The xle's pass no sugar and Dow states that they are their highest flowing R/O elements. It would be nice if they tested them at the same pressure to see the comparison.

One other thing about the feed pump. If you get a cast iron pump, it will eventually rust. So fill it with propylene glycol (rv antifreeze) in the off season. I replaced my 30 yr old feed pump with a brass one last year for that reason.

[skinny78]

I plan on using the flow meters on ebay and adding my own needle valve. What is the range on your flow meters?

I was thinking this one for permeate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acrylic-Flow-Meter-Rotameter-0-1-to-1-GPM-/121253494000?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

This one for concentrate and one for the recirculation loop.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-FLOWMETER-ROTAMETER-0-5-gpm-/390410116610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae6419e02

I plan on using this pump for the pre-charge pump, it has a plastic housing.
http://www.flotecpump.com/ResidentialProduct_fl_ut_wt_FP5112.aspx

I am still debating between a 260gph procon and a 330gph procon, both stainless on the 3/4hp motor.

[bowhunter]

Dow's own maple data sheet says very clearly that the NF 90 out performs the XLE on maple sap. Read the Dow data sheet for 4 inch membranes in this link http://atlanticro.com/1.FilmTecMapleSheet.pdf. While the XLE is their highest flowing reverse osmosis membrane, the NF 90 is a nanofiltration membrane which will out perform the XLE and it also is very tight relative to sugar. In fact Dow's Mark I sold specifically for maple sap is a modified nanofiltration membrane almost the same as the NF 90. The NF 90 will handle 20% more sap than the same size XLE and give you the same sugar concentration at the same operating pressure. The NF 90 is about $100 more than the XLE, but it will allow you to process 20% more sap at the same operating pressure year after year. You have to decide what that's worth to you.

[skinny78]

I think I remember reading on here that nanofiltration membranes allow some minerals through to permeate and therefore affecting the taste of the syrup.

[jcyphert]

You can save some money if you get you procon pump via: http://www.jcbeverage.com/

I understand one stop shopping but worth a look.

[skinny78]

Jcbeverage is $217 for these pumps and he cannot keep rebuilt pumps on the shelf. So far Amazon has the best price on these at $122 to $127.

[TunbridgeDave]

You by no means need a 330gph procon for only 1 4 inch membrane. That's big enough for 3. Also procon recommends at least 1 hp to run the 330. But again maybe you will need it for future expansion. I have a 0-5 gpm flow meter on the permeate side and a 0-2gpm on the concentrate side. If your recirculating then you are looking to get more water out than concentrate, so the permeate meter wants to be bigger than the concentrate. With only one membrane I don't know exactly what your numbers will be like, but I might get no smaller than the 0-2gpm instead of the 0-1gpm.

Bowhunter, I don't mean to start an argument over membranes, nor is this the place to do it. You may be right. I don't think the data sheet from dow is really giving us a very good comparison of the two types, and some of their information seems contradictory. That's all I was saying. I apologize.

[skinny78]

I would like to get 25 to 30 gph of concentrate to keep up with the evaporator. From what I understand the more gph of sap you run across the membrane the less likely it will foul. The XLE max flow is 14gpm so that would be 840gph. My 330gph pump would be too small to get near the max flow so there is no chance of damaging the membrane with too much flow. I don't know what the ratio will be coming out of the membrane but I plan for a re-circulation line running concentrate back to the suction side of the procon therefore allowing me to run max flow across the membrane. This should give me the output I need with room for more output if I need it and all the sap gets multiple passes across the membrane so it should be of a high concentration going to the evaporator.

There will be 5.5gpm coming out of the end of the membrane to be divided between 3 flow meters.

.5gpm for concentrate
How much will be premeate?
The remaining amount for recirculating

Anybody see problems doing this?

[bowhunter]

Dave,

No reason to apologize...wasn't trying to start an argument. I don't own any stock in Dow so it really doesn't make any difference to me which membrane you use. Matthew asked for advice and I offered up what I had. Dow's an extremely reputable company and the global experts on RO/NF membrane technology. They've been active in the maple syrup industry for many years and I believe they are the only membrane manufacturer offering membranes specifically for maple sap processing. They make both membranes and say very clearly the 4 inch NF 90 has a higher capacity on sap, but if you think the 4 inch XLE is better go for it. The XLE is less expensive, so maybe that's the right decision. The flavor thing has been discounted by all the experts in the industry including people on this forum. There are probably more gallons of syrup made with the NF 270 than any other membrane today. The NF 270 passes more minerals and has a reputation for some sugar loss at higher concentrations.

[maple flats]

My 250 gph RO uses 5 gpm flow meters. I have 2 membranes 4" x 40 each. Typical flows are 3 permeate and 1 concentrate. If you add membranes to get up to 3 total you will want a 10 gpm flow meter on permeate but the 5 is still good on the concentrate.

[skinny78]

Dave,

What is the specs on your pump? It looks like you are getting 360gph based on your flows.

[arcticmaple8]

Hi I made one that we have used for 2 seasons now, started with one membrane then added another. I used a 330gph procon pump. I started with the 3/4 hp carbonator motor but soon found it would get hot and trip internal overload when you push the pressure around 250+ found a adapter (3540 procon pump adapter from zorotools.com) and put 1hp 56c frame motor on it. Made a big difference now I can push 300psi no problem as that's what my ss housings are limited to. If i did it again I would not waste the money on a 3/4hp carbonator again. Just my 2 cents.

[stoweski]

Skinny 78,

Looks like you are on the right road! I just recieved my XLE this morning and to my surprise I need to spend a little more money to adapt it to my pressure vessel. After talking with Joe I purchased the same housing you did to make my life easier. I need a membrane with female ends or "cut ends" as Joe explained, as far as I could find the only membrane out there was the Fluid System brand, which I found, to need more pressure than I wanted to deal with.

Good luck!

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I have the same membrane and housing as mentioned. What should I look for and/or what is needed to adapt the membrane to the housing? Surprised Joe didn't mention this to me while talking to him about my purpose for purchasing the membrane. Anyone have a picture of a membrane that is female or "cut" vs a membrane that is not?

Thanks!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I have the same membrane and housing as mentioned. What should I look for and/or what is needed to adapt the membrane to the housing? Surprised Joe didn't mention this to me while talking to him about my purpose for purchasing the membrane. Anyone have a picture of a membrane that is female or "cut" vs a membrane that is not?

Thanks!
if u you bought both things from joe you need no adapter. I just received two XLE from him and all I told him i had stainless 4" housings. His membrANE DROPPED RIGHT IN ( dam caps lock). There are adapters out there but if you have stainless housing like us no need to worry.
He is in on Saturdays so any questions call him

[stoweski]

if u you bought both things from joe you need no adapter. I just received two XLE from him and all I told him i had stainless 4" housings. His membrANE DROPPED RIGHT IN ( dam caps lock). There are adapters out there but if you have stainless housing like us no need to worry.
He is in on Saturdays so any questions call him

Thanks. That puts my mind at ease. Suppose I should get the plumbing done on it tomorrow and wrap up this build!

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

Stoweski,

Looks like you got your question answered.

Best.

[Clinkis]

Thanks to everyone for all the great info on this topic. I'm in the works of ordering the components to build the same (or very similar) RO. I started out with an RO built with residential membranes (got the info to build it here) and it worked good but just too slow and not enough capacity. Could someone explain how to setup and plumb for recirculating? What other components do you need and how do you control how much concentrate is recirculated? Would love to see some pics of the finished product too!

[TunbridgeDave]

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=4754&d=1320062603

This is my "vintage" Sap Brother. To create a recirc loop you have to tee into the input side of the hp pump. And you have to tee into the output concentrate line from the membrane. Then you place a valve (or valves) between those two points. I have two valves in my case. A main ball valve that stays closed when rinsing/washing. Then it's opened fully for recirc. In line with the ball valve is a Parker(needle) valve that is adjusted to achieve the desired concentrate level by reading the flow meters.

A - Input to hp pump
B - Output to membrane
C - Concentrate from membrane
D - Concentrate to Concentrate valve , flow meter, and out to feed tank
E - To main pressure gauge(dead end)
F - Main recirc valve
G - Fine tune needle valve for recirc

Hope that helps.

[Clinkis]

Thanks so much for the info and pic. Great to see how it is actually plumbed. Really quite simple when you see it. I will definitely incorporate this. Thanks TunbridgeDave

[Clinkis]

Just curious...would my aquatech 8852 work as a feed pump or would its flow rate be too low?

[skinny78]

No, Your aquatech will pump 41gph and the recommended pump for the XLE 4040 is a 265gph pump.

[skinny78]

Hello everyone, just bringing this back up to the top for some advice before I start this build. Just checking to see if there is anything different going on in the RO world. Still planning on going with the single XLE-4040 membrane. Anybody with a similar setup feel free to chime in with what you would do differently next time or mistakes you made.

Thanks,
Matthew

[MapleMark753]

According to other posts, Joe at Atlantic RO has passed. You'll need another sounding board there. Not a problem to wait a year before build, many have done that. If you're expanding a bit, why not just buy a small purpose built RO and take a pass on the potential mistakes? Say, a Deer Run 125, either electric or gas? I built a small RO, it worked and works, liked building it, etc... but I prefer the Deer Run one, its well built and functions great. Look, this may rile you, but its not intended to, so sorry if it does.
Good luck with your build if you do it. I'd like to see pics if you're able to post them from your build. There are trends in manufacturing maple ROs, I'd contact all the big manufacturers and MES to get some good info there.
take care, Mark

[skinny78]

I would consider ordering one from Ray Gingerich but I think it is too late to get one for this year. I tried to find a website for his business but didn't have much luck. What is the best way to get a hold of Ray?

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Ray doesn't have a web site. But his phone # 440-422-3047. And true it 'may' be too late but you won't know if you don't call. Ray is a very nice guy to talk with and he will give you the straight talk.

[sugarphil]

You by no means need a 330gph procon for only 1 4 inch membrane. That's big enough for 3. Also procon recommends at least 1 hp to run the 330. But again maybe you will need it for future expansion.

Could somone better explain this remark to me ? Because, it seems to me that the XLE4040 is rated at 2600 GPD (108ish GPH) at 15% recovery rate. So my understanding is that 108ish GPH is the 15% of the incoming sap that will become permeate.

From this, calculating the 100% of sap that should be feed to the membrane to achieve this 108ish GPH of permeate (15%) gives me 722 GPH (100%).

So how come in this discussion, I see nobody talking about this kind of input flow rate ? It seems to me that 1 x XLE4040 would therefore NEED 2 x 330GPH pump to deliver it's 2600 GPD rating ?

Am I missing something here or what ?

Thanks
Phil

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

where are you bowhunter?

[mellondome]

Could somone better explain this remark to me ? Because, it seems to me that the XLE4040 is rated at 2600 GPD (108ish GPH) at 15% recovery rate. So my understanding is that 108ish GPH is the 15% of the incoming sap that will become permeate.

From this, calculating the 100% of sap that should be feed to the membrane to achieve this 108ish GPH of permeate (15%) gives me 722 GPH (100%).

So how come in this discussion, I see nobody talking about this kind of input flow rate ? It seems to me that 1 x XLE4040 would therefore NEED 2 x 330GPH pump to deliver it's 2600 GPD rating ?

Am I missing something here or what ?

Thanks
Phil

What your missing is that the info on the membrane is for water purification. Not sap concentration. And not performance with 34 deg liquids. At best, an xle 4040 will flow about 1 gpm of permeate. The concentrate side flow will depend on how hard you pinch it off. (Personal recommendation would be about 6gpm. But if you want to double your sugar in one pass, it also would be 1 gpm.) So you process at 2gpm.... or 120 gph.

[sugarphil]

I think Bowhunter had something going with its NF90 comment. Looking for pumps that can provide 722 GPH @ 70 psi seems much easier than @100 psi.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329827_200329827

or https://www.surpluscenter.com/Water-Pumps/Centrifugal-Pumps/AC-Motor-Centrifugal-Pumps/3-4-HP-115-230-SHUR-DRI-MULTI-STAGE-BOOSTER-PUMP-2-1406.axd


And I could find anywhere stated that these need a presurized water intake. If someone would know if these need a pressurized intake please post.

Thanks
Phil

[sugarphil]

What your missing is that the info on the membrane is for water purification. Not sap concentration. And not performance with 34 deg liquids. At best, an xle 4040 will flow about 1 gpm of permeate. The concentrate side flow will depend on how hard you pinch it off. (Personal recommendation would be about 6gpm. But if you want to double your sugar in one pass, it also would be 1 gpm.) So you process at 2gpm.... or 120 gph.

Ok so you have to degrade the GDP rating to some figure, in this case 1440 GPD (I guess you get this from field experience) and then recalculate to get about 15% recovery ? (6,6 flow / 1permeate).

Am I right in thinking that 2 GPM flow / 1 GPM permeate would mean 50% recovery (and asking for premature fouling) ?

Oh and at what pressure could you get 1 GPM permeate ? (70 psi for the NF90, 100 psi for the XLE) ?

[Clinkis]

Ok so you have to degrade the GDP rating to some figure, in this case 1440 GPD (I guess you get this from field experience) and then recalculate to get about 15% recovery ? (6,6 flow / 1permeate).

Am I right in thinking that 2 GPM flow / 1 GPM permeate would mean 50% recovery (and asking for premature fouling) ?

Oh and at what pressure could you get 1 GPM permeate ? (70 psi for the NF90, 100 psi for the XLE) ?

I run a single XLE 4040 with 190 GPH procon pump at about 250-275psi. I get about 2:1 ratio of concentrate to permeate (33% recovery rate). That gives me approximately 1 GPM of permeate. I can run it all day at that rate and have no issues with fouling. My raw sap is usually around 3%. As sugar content rises the pressure required to maintain these flows also increases. You definitly need to keep in mind that the specs and applications of a membrane for use with sap vs water purification are quite different. Don't dwell too much on the water purification specs. They are useful for comparison purposes and for understanding the characteristics of a membrane but they need to be adjusted for maple sap application.

[lowryd]

Did you ever get an answer to this question?

[sgariety]

I know this is an old quote, but what type of tubing or pipe are you running between the procon and your housing?