Difference between a Guzzler and a SHURflo® 4048 High Flow Pump

[Starting Small]

This conversation was started on another thread and instead of hijacking the thread I wanted to start this one. Is there a significant difference between a guzzler and a SHURflo® 4048 High Flow Pump? http://www.shurflo.com/rv-products/rv-pumps/classic-series-water-pumps/4048-high-flow-pump/default.html Of course there is a price difference but not sure about other differences. Thanks,
-Dave

[adk1]

No idea but the guzzler pump is a bps worth pump. Can get it less expensive buying direct from them

[Loch Muller]

No idea, but it be nice if it would work. The shurflo is about $400 less than a guzzler. The guzzler has a higher gpm rating. Aquatec makes one similar to the shurflo that is rated at 6 gpm (2 gpm better). What else would you need to set it up besides the tubing and a battery? Might work out ok for a spot with 50-75 taps.

[DaveB]

This is something that I want to look into because I have an area that I'd like to add vacuum but the cost of the regular system is not worth it. I have power available there so I'm wondering what is the most cost effective way to power one of these pumps without adding the cost of a battery, charger, etc. I have a battery charger - would something like that work?

[CampHamp]

I use the 4048 on 150 taps and like it. I had 22" inches of vac after I chased leaks this past weekend. I posted some info on how I set it up at this thread (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?22310-TreeTops-taps-in-Southern-NH) (this maybe where you read about it and may not be new info...). There is probably a 120v option out there that would be easier, but I tend to think my way out of trouble rather than thinking how to avoid it.

Battery chargers do not put out a rounded electric wave pattern, so you need a battery to smooth the curve or you will hurt the motor...

[DaveB]

I use the 4048 on 150 taps and like it. I had 22" inches of vac after I chased leaks this past weekend. I posted some info on how I set it up at this thread (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?22310-TreeTops-taps-in-Southern-NH) (this maybe where you read about it and may not be new info...). There is probably a 120v option out there that would be easier, but I tend to think my way out of trouble rather than thinking how to avoid it.

Battery chargers do not put out a rounded electric wave pattern, so you need a battery to smooth the curve or you will hurt the motor...

I was trying to think of options that I have on-hand instead of having to buy something. What about using a 12v supply like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-PC-6-120AC-Power-Converter/dp/B0012BL8LG/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1393413173&sr=8-9&keywords=12v+power+supply

I could pair that with a pig tail to complete the wiring.

Thanks!

[Waynehere]

I happen to have one laying around from when I first started sugaring back in 99. I used it attached to my lawn tractor to gather sap with. Been on the shelf since I switched to an AC pump.

Anyway, I think I am going to give this a try as well. But I have electric nearby. So I took a power supply from an old scrap server I had, which puts out 14 amps @ 12 v. Should work good if I can get enough Vac from it. I am going to hook it up to a vac gauge first though and run some water through to be sure the diaphragms haven't dry rotted. I would make sure that the pump requirements for amps match or are less then the rated output for your converter if you decide to go that route. Mine said Max of 10 amps.

Yes they do make AC pumps too. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001FAA5Y/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2DNJ61A4XAD34&coliid=I3NTSR1GJ4YQAE

I was looking at them before I remembered my old one.

[DaveB]

Good to know...that model is actually cheaper than the 4048 model. One additional question - How do I automatically turn the unit on and off? The area that I'd like to use this unit has about 125 taps on gravity is separate from my main bush where I can turn the vacuum on/off each day depending on the temperature. I'll only pick up from this location 1-2X a week. I saw some thermocube outlets that turn on at 35 but it turns off at 45. I'd like a solution that turns on at 35 and stays on as long as the temp is above that. Any ideas?

BTW, I like to re-use of the server power supply! I hadn't thought of that one!

[Starting Small]

Great conversation, thank you for your help everyone! Does anyone have an idea of the maximum length of a mainline? Thanks,
-Dave

[CampHamp]

I'd like to get more automation as well, so interested to follow how this goes for you!

I see more expensive temp switches like this (http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Heating-Cooling-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B000E7NYY8/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1393433395&sr=1-3&keywords=thermocube) that let you program the ON/OFF temps yourself. If you set the ON to be 35 and OFF at 33 (A/C units operate with OFF temps lower than ON temps, so this should be an option on the switch), then you might expect to have liquid while it is on - interesting. Only problem I see is that you would end up having freezing sap in the pump overnight and it may take a long time for it to thaw inside there (especially if you put your pump in a container to keep it dry). I always have blown air through my pump at night. It may be fine as long as it thaws before starting (?).

Another thought is if you turn it OFF at 30 and have a screen, then you might expect to have pumped air through it because the pump seems to pull some air through the ice when it first freezes. I've gone to turn mine off at night and found it running dry with ice safely blocked behind the screen...

If the trees start to run before the pump switches ON (say the temps hover at 34 degrees for a while), will the sap push through the pump or will pressure build-up in your tubing? If it can't flow through then will this pressure pop lines off your taps? Also, if it doesn't flow through an "OFF pump", would you be slowing the thaw in the lines by preventing liquid to flow through the ice?

I like the look of the AC-DC converter unit instead of using a battery for 12V units like mine (the 4048).

There are a couple of specs I'm comparing on the pumps: the self-priming power and the flow. The pumps indicate dry sucking pressure by the feet of self-priming lift and the 120V 2088 unit primes at 9' while the 4048 primes only to 6' - so I expect you'd get more DRY vac pressure from the 2088. However, once the sap starts flowing and the pumps has liquid in it the flow rate of the 2088 is lower than the 4088, so I wonder if the 4048 actually creates more vacuum once it is wet?

[DaveB]

Camp, I saw that A/C unit thermostat controlled outlet but it has a range of 45-90 so I didn't think that would work for our purposes. I did see this homemade variety which might be an option:

http://howandsometimeswhy.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/how-to-build-a-thermostat-controlled-outlet/

That's a good point too about having frozen water in the pump. I'm wondering if turning it on and off at 30-31 is the better approach. My thinking is that as the temperature is falling that ice would form in the line before it would where the pump is because I'm planning on having my pump in a box and I'm thinking that it would provide its own heat and be above freezing when the ice is forming in the line so it would pump The reverse would happen when the temperature is rising.

[CampHamp]

You're right, the one I mentioned doesn't handle lower temps.

Your example, using a line thermostat probably won't work either because it will turn OFF when it gets hotter, but you want to turn OFF when it gets colder (also, will they work at 33 degrees?).

This one (http://www.amazon.com/Elitech-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat/dp/B008KVCPH2/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1393441046&sr=1-4&keywords=thermostatically+controlled+outlet#produc tDetails) looks more promising because it has a cooling mode and has a better range (not a standard outlet, though). It may be cheap enough to try out... I might get that and the AC/DC converter and give her a whirl.

[BAP]

Look for a refrigeration thermostat. That is what I used to use on vacuum pumps. They are usually made to go from sub zero to 100+ degrees. They also have a built in differential so the on temperature is about 2-3 degree higher than the off temp. Check out www.farmtek.com.

[DaveB]

Look for a refrigeration thermostat. That is what I used to use on vacuum pumps. They are usually made to go from sub zero to 100+ degrees. They also have a built in differential so the on temperature is about 2-3 degree higher than the off temp. Check out www.farmtek.com.

Thanks for that tip. Would one of the following then work?

http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Controls-A19AAT-2C-Temperature-Controller/dp/B0002EAL58/ref=pd_sbs_k_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=11W2CCD7SHZZQ6PPSTM1

http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Controls-Digital-Thermostat-Control/dp/B00368D6JA/ref=pd_sim_indust_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1E9BKJT38HR74JH1R4QW

I saw this unit (http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=50306) over at FarmTek which led me to those other units.

[BAP]

The first one looks just like the one I used to use except the version I had was made to be hard wired in place. The second one, digital is probably easier to fine tune. Just put the probe out in the open so it gets a good reading but make sure it is shaded from the sun. I found that if the sun shines on the probe it can heat it up enough to kick the pump on way before it is above freezing. They work pretty good. I think I used to have 8 of them in use. The only time they may not be accurate is when the sap wants to run at about 33 degrees and you have it set to come on at 33-34 degrees. They save a lot of work starting and stopping pumps.

[CampHamp]

BTW- Instead of getting the 120V temp controller and an AC-DC converter (to replace the battery and charger), I decided to go with a 12V temp switch for my 4048 ($7-delivered! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141126015141)) and keep my battery/charger setup. The main reasons are because I trust the reliability of the battery setup at this point and the 10AMP converters are pretty expensive. I'd be curious to hear if anyone uses a AC/DC power supply with their pumps, though...

[DaveB]

BTW- Instead of getting the 120V temp controller and an AC-DC converter (to replace the battery and charger), I decided to go with a 12V temp switch for my 4048 ($7-delivered! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141126015141)) and keep my battery/charger setup. The main reasons are because I trust the reliability of the battery setup at this point and the 10AMP converters are pretty expensive. I'd be curious to hear if anyone uses a AC/DC power supply with their pumps, though...

Looks good...I wish I could do more building of components like that. I had enough trouble with the autodraw-off that I built!

BTW, I spoke with the guys whose trees I'd like to put this on and he is willing to plug/unplug the unit each day depending on the temperature so I won't have to worry about automating that so I don't have to worry that extra cost.

I'm trying to figure out the difference between these two pumps besides the price difference:

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-Industrial-Pump-Model-2088-594-154/dp/B0001FAA5Y/ref=pd_sbs_auto_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=04MR60CVXESKTPBBX5GQ

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-2088-492-444-Model-Fresh-Water/dp/B000B63ZAU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1393507694&sr=1-1&keywords=2088-492-444

The model numbers are slightly different and the 2088-594-154 mentions that it's an on-demand pump which makes me think that I should stick with the 2088-492-444 which specifically mentions water transfer applications. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? I have some time with the cold weather being in place for another week it seems.

[DaveB]

Just to add to the confusion, I saw this and I'm wondering if someone comment on whether this works the way I think it would work:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/heat-cool-thermostat-temperature-controller-control-switch-Thermometer-50-110/301091147787

It looks like it can work in a heating or cooling mode with a set point temperature and it has an outlet. I wasn't sure if this was something that would work for the application that we've been discussing. The price does seem good!

[Jkrist]

I think the one I'm using is just a cheaper camper pump. Mine has been working fine running constant, but that was only for 48hrs then it got cold again. If I where to buy new I would go with the industrial version since it'll be running constant.

[CampHamp]

I just installed that 12V thermostat. You can set any ON and OFF temperature you want. I decided to let it run until after it freezes at -0.5°C (31°F) and start up again at 2.5°C (36°F). The filter will block ice and should allow the pump to expel all the sap before it freezes inside the pump (if I stopped it above freezing, then ice could form in the pump). I'm not sure if this setting is correct, but probably not because it's the first try...:lol: any suggestions for those that do this already?

I'm pumping up a few feet into the collection tank, so I'll have frozen sap in my outlet tube. I'm hoping that it all shoots through when it starts up in the morning because there are no fittings to narrow the tube and stop the ice from getting to the tank. If I'm wrong and the outlet gets ice-clogged, I'll put the pump higher than the tanks for next time to create a downhill flow from the pump to the tank.

Here's a photo of the setup. If anyone has any suggestions for improvement, please let me know (I will neaten the wires up). If anyone wants to give this setup a try, just let me know if you have any questions.

9120

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Everyone,

So now that we are gearing up to the next season anyone have a complete comparison between a guzzler and the 4048? We used the 4048 last year on about 30 taps and were very happy, we were wondering if it was worth upgrading to a guzzler for 120 taps.

Thanks,
Mike

[lyford]

Thinking about getting into vacuum myself, and starting with the small 50 tap bush behind my house. Am I correct in thinking that the 2 pumps being discussed here are low vacuum? And what % of increased sap collection can I expect with one of these pumps or is low vacuum more for convenience (not having to gather buckets). The trees are all reds for what its worth, and I've been collecting in buckets up to this point.

[wildlifewarrior]

They can get into the low 20's for vacuum but they are cheaper and more appropriate for the smaller scale guys. I love the 4048 we got for 30 taps, really saved our season. I was hoping that someone may have upgraded from one to the other, or added one as an addition to one they already had.

Mike

[BreezyHill]

And what % of increased sap collection can I expect with one of these pumps or is low vacuum more for convenience.

As presented by Steve Childs of Cornell U. you can expect a 151% increase in production by changing from gravity to 16" of vac. Then for every inch of vac past 16 you see a 5-7% increase per Dr Tims data at UVM. So going to even 20" of vac you will be looking at 175% or more increase in sap production.

So on your bush of 50 maples you will be looking at a range of 15-19 gallons more sap per tap annually, depending on several variables. In the case noted vac was 15.6 gallons over gravity in sap production per tap at 16".

The time saved not collecting buckets will hence be invested in boiling all the sap you are now collecting. Seems like a great trade off to me. LOL

Jus remember that you need to protect these pumps from ice and slush damage when temps drop and the bush starts to freeze and when the bush is starting to thaw in the am you can still get slush to the pump.

Ben

[lyford]

Thanks ben, when u lay it out like that it kinda makes it a no brainer, time to buy a pump

[BreezyHill]

Pumps are a great thing if you are ready for all that sap...or it can make it easier to just tap fewer trees to get the same amount....OMG did I just say that...hope the wife doesn't ready this. LOL

Welcome!

[Loch Muller]

So I'm thinking about trying one of the shurflo 4008 revolution water pumps on 30 taps this year. I found one for $70 which is half the price of a 4048. The 4008 is rated for the same prime (6 ft) as the 4048, and pumps 3 gpm compared to 4 gpm on the 4048. Has anyone tried this pump or some thing similar?