Does vacuum have an effect on the sap wood?

[Homestead Maple]

In my profile you'll notice that I tap trees on US Forest service land and I have been since 1998. This year I had to get a Special Use Permit for the first time because the Federal people are concerned that I leave my taps up year round and they feel that this is a deterrent to other people using the land. I had to pay an additional fee of $105.62 this year besides the regular tap fee and this fee was going to be determined by the number of acres that my tubing system occupies but they couldn't come up with a proportional price per acre, so they decided that $105.62 seemed okay. Next year the fee will be decided on a per acre basis. While I'm going over the SUP with the person at the Forest Service office today, they mentioned to me that the Forest Service is also thinking about charging an additional fee next year because I use vacuum and vacuum, according to them, causes harmful effects to the tree wood. I asked where the information was about any studies on this because I try to keep up with any new info on tree tapping and they said it was out there if I wanted to look it up. They said I should be able to see the die back in the tops of the trees. My tapping guide lines under this permit say I can't tap trees with a diameter of less than 12", which I don't, and the maximum amount of taps I can have in a tree 19" or larger is 2. I have maybe a dozen trees that are 30" or larger that I have been putting 3 taps in, so that is out from now on. I can't have any taps higher than 6 feet on a tree. I remember one March I got one snow storm of 24" and then another of 32", plus what was already on the ground, so some years from now on I may have to dig down to tap my trees. :) Any tubing that I replace from now on has to be gray in color so that it blends in with the forest. I have to remove my holding tanks at the end of the season too. Tap holes have to be 6" horizontally and 24" vertically from the nearest old tap hole. (I thought 12" was enough.) Each June from now on they will cruise my sugar bush and do an inspection and if they are not satisfied with the operation they will suspend the operation immediately. If everything meets their satisfaction I will have to apply for the SUP at least 6 months in advance of the expiration of the current SUP. This permit is not renewal. Prior to the expiration of this permit, the holder may apply for a new permit that would renew the use and occupancy authorized by this permit. Hmmm.... They told me that this is how they have been conducting their operations in Vermont for years and they are this year getting caught up in the White Mts. of New Hampshire that they permit for maple tapping. Is that so, Vermonters?
Any way, does anyone have any info on how vacuum affects the wood of a maple?

[jmayerl]

So you have 1200 total taps on USDA land, how much total are you paying right now this year?

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Hmmmm, I'm thinking it's time to start looking for new woods to tap. It sounds like a major pain. I know you have tubing invested, so follow the rules a few more years to re-coup. I would suggest to start looking else where that has growth potential. On Private land with normal rules and people to deal with.

As far as the studies, check out the UVM Proctor Maple website. I think the information you are looking for is there. From my understanding, there is no study that states that Vac is harmful to the tree in anyway. At any Vac level for that matter too.

Ben

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Show them this. There may be something better out there, but think this addresses the lies they are spinning.

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/vacsap.pdf

Ben

[GeneralStark]

My property borders USFS land and I have inquired about obtaining a lease as there is lots of maple and it is uphill of my sugarhouse. There are lots of folks in this situation around here, but there are only three leases on USFS land in VT as I have been told by the representative that oversees such matters. The folks with leases do have considerable oversight and this is why they are unable to provide other leases at this point. Not enough staff and time to manage leases. They may open up more in the future, but no real timeline for that.

The requirements you are being asked to meet sound like what people have to do here in VT as well. In terms of the effects of vac. on trees, that sounds like it may be a bias of the specific district managers you are dealing with here. The individual I spoke with seemed to have no opposition to vacuum, just no time to manage more leases.

[DrTimPerkins]

Any way, does anyone have any info on how vacuum affects the wood of a maple?

Yes, we do. There is NO additional detrimental effect of vacuum on the wood (in terms of the wounding = "stain") that is produced. The stain is the natural wound response of the tree, and is not affected at all by the use of vacuum. They should feel quite free to give me a call at 802-899-9926 and I would be happy to answer any questions they might have about this.

[Dill]

I thought part of the farm bill was to help open up access to maple trees on federal land? Might want to talk to your USDA field office. And make sure you Forest Service talks to Dr Tim, you can't beat that for timely research.

[Homestead Maple]

So you have 1200 total taps on USDA land, how much total are you paying right now this year?

I'm paying $645.62 this year,which figures out to roughly 54 cents a tap. Not bad considering that others pay a dollar or more. I just wonder what it will be next year when they do come up with an acreage figure and a figure per tap for using vacuum.

[Homestead Maple]

Yes, we do. There is NO additional detrimental effect of vacuum on the wood (in terms of the wounding = "stain") that is produced. The stain is the natural wound response of the tree, and is not affected at all by the use of vacuum. They should feel quite free to give me a call at 802-899-9926 and I would be happy to answer any questions they might have about this.

Thank you very much Dr. Perkins. I will give them your number and I was given some other info that was researched at Proctor that I will print and give them also. One of my other new requirements says that a new tap hole should be no closer horizontally that 6" to an old tap hole, (which is recommended industry wide) and vertically no closer than 24". I wonder if they measured 12" above and 12" below and came up with 24". Any way I've got to go over that one with them so more.
Again, thank you Dr. Perkins for your offer and I'll let you know what they have to say. Hopefully they will call you.

[Homestead Maple]

My property borders USFS land and I have inquired about obtaining a lease as there is lots of maple and it is uphill of my sugarhouse. There are lots of folks in this situation around here, but there are only three leases on USFS land in VT as I have been told by the representative that oversees such matters. The folks with leases do have considerable oversight and this is why they are unable to provide other leases at this point. Not enough staff and time to manage leases. They may open up more in the future, but no real timeline for that.

The requirements you are being asked to meet sound like what people have to do here in VT as well. In terms of the effects of vac. on trees, that sounds like it may be a bias of the specific district managers you are dealing with here. The individual I spoke with seemed to have no opposition to vacuum, just no time to manage more leases.

I asked the person that was working on my permit how many other permits they gave out to people in this district and they said five. I asked if I could have there names and I was they couldn't do that. My permit was the first one they issued this year. I started this process January 18th and was given my permit yesterday that I get yearly. As soon as I send the payment for the Special Use Permit to the USDA office in Los Angeles, CA they will notify the office here and I will have that signed by the District Ranger. I was surprised to here them say that I was the first to get a permit finalized because they have 5 more to do. We can't tap until we have all our perts in place so I hope the others will get heirs in time. I can see what you mean by not having enough staff on board.

[DrTimPerkins]

I thought part of the farm bill was to help open up access to maple trees on federal land? Might want to talk to your USDA field office. And make sure you Forest Service talks to Dr Tim, you can't beat that for timely research.

Exactly what the rules will be when, and more correctly, IF the Acer Acess & Development Program takes effect, it will be some time.

[Homestead Maple]

Yes, we do. There is NO additional detrimental effect of vacuum on the wood (in terms of the wounding = "stain") that is produced. They should feel quite free to give me a call at 802-899-9926 and I would be happy to answer any questions they might have about this.

I talked with the local forester yesterday for the USFS that has done the work on the new specifications and gave him your phone number. I also gave him some copies of the research papers you have on your site. His name is Ashton Hargrave and he was very interested in talking with you. I asked him again if he would reconsider the rule of placing new tap holes 2 feet above or 2 feet below an old tap hole but he was still reluctant to change. Ashton said he got some of his info from research that Proctor has done. I don't remember of reading anything of this sort.

[DrTimPerkins]

I asked him again if he would reconsider the rule of placing new tap holes 2 feet above or 2 feet below an old tap hole but he was still reluctant to change. Ashton said he got some of his info from research that Proctor has done. I don't remember of reading anything of this sort.

He might be thinking of some older publications. Back when 7/16" spouts were used, the staining could extend 12-18" above and below the taphole (or even more if paraformaldehyde was used). With the 5/16" spouts, the stain is considerably smaller. A foot above or below the taphole is sufficient.

[white mt]

Hi Bill I don't understand were they come up with this stuff .The gov should be looking to experts in the field. Like DR Perkins who study this stuff for a living. let me know if you need help tapping.