Wiring Sugarhouse

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I know enough electrical to be dangerous, but am a little stuck at the moment.

My sugarhouse is about 450' from my 100Amp panel. I hope to transfer 60 Amps using a 2, 2, 2, 4 Direct Burial wire I purchased today. I won't be able to bury it now, and may decide to pull overhead primary next year, so I am not worried about that now.

The question is how to I get it to the Sugarhouse for now. Lay it on the ground, or suspend it using #12 wire and zip ties? I know this isn't "code". That isn't a concern this year. No RO to power, just Vac, 3 blowers, lights, and filter press.

So if you had to run a wire to your sugarhouse now, would you put it in the snow, or suspend it?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ben

[Bruce L]

I think I would hang it Ben, too much chance of a visitor to the bush contacting it even though it is all insulated. Also, should a vehicle of any sort drive across the wire?

[bamboozled]

I think I would use a generator until the AC can be installed properly.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I'd say it's a little late for the Generator idea since I spent my money on the expensive direct burial wire. I think Bruce has it right with suspending it. Another thought was kids. It makes sense to keep it out of reach/harms way of anything out there.

Thanks,
Ben

[lpakiz]

I suspended mine temporarily. I didn't even use a wire to hang it on, just stretched it fairly tight, then propped it up here and there with a 12 foot 2 X 4 with two nails in the top end, to keep the wire on top of the post.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

there is insulation around each conductor but not over the entire thing like UF wire. I would definitely suspend it. Not saying you will but there a saying we have in the electrical field, "There's nothing more permanent then temporary"
When you do install the direct burial wire in the ground buy some conduit and pull it through it. Yes you can just bury it but to have the chance of a stone eventually cutting one of the phases in half isnt worth it. At that point you would have to have the excavator come back out re-dig the trench etc, etc.
Article 300-5 F
Backfill that contains large rocks, paving materials, cinders, or sharp angular substances or corrosive material SHALL NOT be placed in an excavation where materials will damage raceways, cables etc. Where to prevent damage a granulated material will be used ( that means 6 to 12" sand on bottom of trench lay wire and another 6 to 12 above the wire).

Well if I did my math right I know there other electricians on here
#2=cm 66360, VD 7.2(3% per phase)at (5% per phase 12), K 42.4, A 60
Distance (66360 X 7.2)/(42.4 x 60)=187'
(66360 X 12)/(42.4 X 60)= 313'

[maple flats]

At 450' on 2 ga if you draw the full 60A and the source is at 240V you will lose 17.225V. If you meant 2/0 you still lose 8.586V. I wouldn't run any heavy loads and no motors on that. With 3/0 you lose 6.803 V, that is the lightest you should use (2.83% loss) 4/0 would be better and would be a 2.25% lost voltage. Normally it is suggested to keep under 2% loss to run motors (like you RO).
Motors don't run as well, heat up and eventually fail because of low voltage. What is the actual voltage at your 100A panel? (use a test meter, multi meter). Then what is the motor voltage shown on the heaviest motor? You will be OK only if the source is 235+V and the motor says 230V. If the source is lower or the motor says 240V it will eventually fail. If this is the case, find a way to run new from the grid before next year. One year will most likely not cause it to fail, but if you run on that year after year it will catch up with you.

[lpakiz]

Yes, good point about the conduit. I bought 1 inch, I think. Was VERY inexpensive. I assembled it over the wire before I buried it, piece by piece. It had bell ends, so each piece slipped over the previous piece. Piece of cake! Peace of mind.

[Michael Greer]

Maple Flats is right. While lightbulbs don't care, nothing will ruin machinery faster than insufficient power.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks for the information. The wire I have is a SouthWire 2/0, 2/0, 2/0, 4/0. 100 Amp service Entrance wire. I know 4/0 would have been better, but is nearly twice as much to buy. My hope is to sell this wire after the season, it is a full 500 roll. I have to pull in primary 200 AMP service so I can add RO's next season. I was quoted 5K for primary service. 1 Pole with my Utility company is $2,000 bucks. plus 200 for each guide wire.

The major load is a 3 HP Busch pump. I think it has a 19.5 Amp starting draw. I have a new VFD, once started and running I won't be shutting off much, if at all. Then a 3/4 hp motor for filter press and 1/4 hp motors on 4 blowers.

My plan is to take a 50 or 60 Amp breaker out of my 100 Amp panel to the 50 or 60 Amp breaker panel in the Sugarhouse. Then to feed a 30 Amp breaker for the Vacuum, and 20 Amp breakers for each of the 3 blower circuits. Then another 20 Amp breaker for the Filter press, lights and outlets circuit. Will this get me through 2014?

Thanks,
Ben

[GeneralStark]

The good thing about the VFD is it will allow you to slow start the motor, but you may find that it kicks off when you start other motors. It seems like you may have a voltage drop issue with that gauge wire but I will leave it up to the real electricians to judge that.

[Swagner]

If it was me I wouldn't trust that size cable on the amount of draw that you are intending on using. A quick relatively inexpensive alternative to fixing your issue would be a buck boost transformer. If you check around you might be able to find one that fits your needs without spending a ton.Just a thought

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

So I finally got a chance to test the panel at the sugarhouse. Both legs read 120V. That means it should be good to go right?

[maple flats]

The right volts at no load does not mean you will get anywhere near that under load. You are trying to draw too much thru wire that is very marginal. As long as you have things wired up, put your heaviest load on it and use your meter for voltage. If that voltage reads less than the motor voltage tag by more than 5% max, find another way. If that reads within limits, add the next load and repeat. Keep doing this until you find what you can run. Lights should be last item added. At any point if you get less than 215 across both hot legs, don't do it. While 215 is stretching things, you will likely get thru 1 season. Then do it right for the next year.

[BAP]

Voltage fluctuations and low voltage will burn up motors over time. It causes them to run hot. Also, VFD drives don't like voltage drops and fluctuations. While the smaller wire may be cheaper now, in the long run it could cost you more money if you burn up a motor or two.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Alright thanks for the info. I will get the Vac wired this weekend and retest as Flats suggests. Then add on the other loads and retest. Then I will report back with results to see if you guys think it will be alright.

Thanks,
Ben

[red maples]

I got 200 amps power to the sugarhouse and its SOOOO nice it just takes time to wire everything which I am still working on. a couple of things when using conduit always go a little bigger than you might think you might need.(makes pulling wire SOOO much easier!!! If you have an out building say a sap shed or pump room and want one 20 amp or what ever you need run 2. Always go a little more or a little bigger thank you think you need. Always run 4 gang boxes for outlets. you will need it trust me!!!

[The Sweet Spot]

1 Pole with my Utility company is $2,000 bucks. plus 200 for each guide wire.

Wow, you could save yourself bunch of cash by renting a trencher and putting it under ground. We rent one for everything we put in. In 500' would that be one pole or two, plus how many guides? WOW if you have two poles and two guides, that's $4400 right there. Even if it is one pole and one guide that is still $2200 a trencher was $150. for 24 hours. You also have the ease of knowing nothing will fall on a line. Just my two cents, Have a great season!!!