Leader CV Spouts ???

[workinprogress]

Was out picking up some supplies today in Swanton, VT. Went to purchase a bag (100) of leader clear cv spouts but at check out they wouldn't sell them.

Here is what happened. At the start of checkout the counter person took the bag and said he had to check something. 5 minutes later he came back and said he couldn't sell them. Then he asked another person behind the counter to pull the remaining clear CV spouts off the sales floor.

Whole situation seems strange to me. Anyone experience this?

[Run Forest Run!]

Perhaps a customer had already placed a large order and they needed to fill it with whatever stock they had in the store. It would have been good customer service if they had exlained what they were doing, and why.

[workinprogress]

There where 3 or 4 bags (100 spouts) on a side counter. 3 bags on top of a full case of spouts on the sales floor. The salesman actually entered them into the register before saying he had to check on something. I asked a couple questions and never got an answer.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

obviously some one else has money that is greener than YOURS

[rgmaple]

So what did you get for spouts instead?

[maple flats]

They should have explained, pre ordered by someone else, def. batch, etc. But then my opinion is that Leaders communications has often lacked.

[workinprogress]

The CV spouts were going to be an upgrade so since they weren't available I was just going to use what I already have. I did try to purchase a few Tree saver spout just to make sure I had enough but they were out of those. Will know later today if I need to purchase more. Last year had 75 taps (mostly buckets) figure this year around 100 taps total with 40 or so on buckets.

[Cabin]

Was out picking up some supplies today in Swanton, VT. Went to purchase a bag (100) of leader clear cv spouts but at check out they wouldn't sell them.

Here is what happened. At the start of checkout the counter person took the bag and said he had to check something. 5 minutes later he came back and said he couldn't sell them. Then he asked another person behind the counter to pull the remaining clear CV spouts off the sales floor.

Whole situation seems strange to me. Anyone experience this?

"The Future of Tapping is Here!!

Our New CLear Check Valve Spout has everything the efficient prodcer needs. We have the Check Valve technology, the 5/16" size and the visual benefits of the clear polycarbonate material.

Delivery may be delayed up to 2 weeks, due to volume of orders."

From their web page.

[DrTimPerkins]

While you probably should have gotten a better explanation of what was going on, given the backlog of orders, I always pre-order these ahead of time to make sure I can get them.

[mapleguy]

Have you tried contacting Sugarbush Supplies? They are great people to deal with and maybe still stock what you need. Sugarbush Supply.com

[G.Rainville]

DG in Georgia is also selling them. I think for the same price as Leader.

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

Wf mason had a few bags left yesterday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spud]

While you probably should have gotten a better explanation of what was going on, given the backlog of orders, I always pre-order these ahead of time to make sure I can get them.

I bought 6000 of them 2-3 months ago because I new if I waited I would not get them. Last year I waited and got none.

Spud

[Bentley Wood Maple]

On Monday they were sold out of CV 2s in rutland, called Swanton and they had 100,000 of them.Had them UPS me enough to finsh up, short about 200. Got billed for them but so far have not arrived. Went to LaPiere so we could finish this weekend

[happy thoughts]

I always pre-order these ahead of time to make sure I can get them.

Sorry Dr Tim but have to say the irony in that made me chuckle a little since there would be no cvs at all without you :). It must be a good feeling though to see your improvement recieve such wide acceptance even if they don't put you at the head of the order line :)

[DrTimPerkins]

Sorry Dr Tim but have to say the irony in that made me chuckle a little since there would be no cvs at all without you :). It must be a good feeling though to see your improvement recieve such wide acceptance even if they don't put you at the head of the order line :)

I've never gotten myself into the position where I need something immediately....best to always order ahead...that goes for almost all the supplies we get. I wouldn't expect to be put at the head of the line....but I normally order way ahead, so it's never been an issue.

I can say that I've learned a good deal about the "business world" in the last few years. Basically all is fair in love and sales I guess. :)

It's always a bit amusing to me that people ask me about what Leader Evaporator is going to do next. While I have a great relationship with the folks there, their business is the sales/service.....mine is research. I stay out of their business, they stay out of mine. While they might mention something in passing about what they are going to do, I don't really expect them to tell me. Similarly, I'm happy to go to their Open House and talk about my research, but they've never asked me to do anything in particular, or asked to preview any results before I talk about them. They hear it at the same time as everyone else. It's worked well that way so far.

[wiam]

I use the first gen cv. I've had mine for a month. ;)

[BAP]

Regardless of whether they had taken an order for them from somebody that was not in the store, if you find an item on their shelves and take it to the counter to buy it, they should sell it to you or give you a good reason they can't. Some people would scream at you the seller that, that was discrimination saying the costumer couldn't buy that product for no real reason.

[workinprogress]

I never got the impression this was due to backorders, but more of an issue with defective product. Either way I was pretty let down by Leaders poor customer service.

[DrTimPerkins]

I never got the impression this was due to backorders, but more of an issue with defective product.

Not the case that I know of.

[upsmapleman]

I have used cv spouts since they came out. Have been very disappointed this year with the quality. I had 500 left from last year and put them in no problem. Started on the ones I received this year and the first 2 split right off the bat. Started being extra gentle which helped put still had problems. 1 even split when I pushed it on by hand. Also had some plain as I'm putting up some new line. Fist think I found was about 5 or 6 per bag had no center so spout would not stay seated. Some the center extended pass the outside rim by a 1/8 inch or more and one of them the center broke trying to pound it in. I figure this year I'm losing 5 to 6 % due to defects which for me is about 300 or over a $100 bill. Great for the sellers, but I will seriously look at something different if I have the same problems another year.

[markct]

upsmapleman, that sounds like the issues they had first year they came out 2009. Leader still has them on clearence the version from that year maybe some dealer sold you those? The new ones were a better plastic i think they said, altho i must say i have used the over 3000 of the 2009 clearance ones and not had a problem with any

[sapman]

I had 3 or 4 cv2s break on me this year right in front of the round part you tap on. Had to drill them out. PITA.

[mapleguy]

For what it's worth I have yet to experience one problem with the cv's .As far as I'm concerned best thing since sliced bread. Just a thought, use a lightweight plastic hammer to insert with light taps. I'm sure out of the thousands produced there are bound to be defected ones. Good luck!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I used the clear seasonals this year which I understand are same as CV's expect without the CV mechanism in them and had no problems at all with 700 of them.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

We used 10,000 of the black cv-1 adapters this year. I bet I had 100-200 split and break also. I know they say not to tap the stubby into the adapter, but I did this year and have since they came out and didn't have problems in years past. I spoke to a few other producers that also had problems with the cv's splitting.

[upsmapleman]

That has been my experience. Put in several thousand no problem and then all of a sudden they break very easy. If it was not a manufacturing problem maybe some got stored in a shed or trailer over the summer and it was very hot and it affected the plastic. I'm sure I will spend the season trying to re seat them every time it freezes as they are not together very good.

[Brandy Brook Maple Farm]

8-10% of clear check valves might have an air leak. I was just informed of this today and we are using almost all clear check valves in our bushes. Something to keep an ear and an eye out for when checking vacuum in the woods.

[500592]

I was told it was due to an issue with the mould and they were working on it and to contact them and they would send out some more I only had 2 or 3 out 300 some break so I am not to to concerned.

[Brandy Brook Maple Farm]

We broke quite a few, but at this point, after having all of ours installed and tapped in, it's not the breakage I am concerned about. It's the air leaks.

[sapman]

I use the little white plastic hammer Lapierre sells. Works great. I only had 3 break in 2200, so I'm not really complaining. But still a pain when trying to make good time tapping.

[spud]

I put in 6000 this year and I did break 2-3 but it was my own fault from hitting to hard. The season is way to early to tell but I am running 27-28 inches in my woods so there could not be many leaks. I also read that the new CV2s are the best sealing spout on the market due to a different plastic used. PMRC uses these spouts with great success.

Spud

[sugarman3]

I use a small rubber hammer and never broke any cv's or stubby's from lead,put in over 4500 the last 3 yrs and this year every day was around 0-15 degrees

[markct]

I feel so primitive now but I hammer them in with the side of my tubing cutter pliers which are the bypass wire cutters like you use for battery cable, they are plenty heavy to tap in spouts and fit in your pocket easier then any hammer and have to date not broken a spout

[upsmapleman]

Received a call from my dealer today who had just received a call from Leader and it appears that there is a problem with the manufacturing of the cv spout. They have had a lot of breakage as high as 18%. Was told to put some water in the bag of the remaining ones. Also he said the clear ones have pin holes in them and leak vacuum. At least the ones that split you can replace right away but the clear ones it is going to be a job tracking them down. On the plus side was told to keep track of the breakage and Leader would stand behind it. That news I liked at least.

[vtmapleman]

I will stay with the old CV's - have not had a problem in the last three years. Will wait until they improve the mfg process. It's nice they are replacing the broken CV; however, the cost in lost sap and man power to find the leaks comes out of the sugar maker's pocket.

[TheMapleMoose]

Got the same call about the check valve issues today. Really hoping my cv2s don't leak.....
Always been very pleased with leaders quality and service but sometimes there is only so cheap you can make something.....

[Mark]

Where are they leaking? I was going to put in 2000 of the CV2 next week to try them out. Now I am wondering if I should send them back.

[TunbridgeDave]

Stupid Leader. That's how they ended up with a 7.5 inch filter press.

[Mark]

I called them and they said they would give you a dollar of in store credit for every leaker you find in the woods.

[ryebrye]

Is there a way to tell visually before you put them in if they have problems? I have a handful more cv2's that I am putting in this weekend - if there is something I can look for to avoid putting in bad ones that would be handy.

[Mark]

The girl at Leader said to look if the air bubble in the plastic comes to the surface near the base of the cross. She also said you could suck or blow on them to find a leak.

[maple flats]

I have almost 1300 new CV2's in. I got a call from my dealer about the issue. I was told early production looked good, but somehow as time went on 1 spot on the mold developed a problem that started leaving a pin hole leak in the flat spot near the cross. I don't know how many taps are made at a time, but it was just 1 position on the multiple tap mold. Was told that those with good eyes can see it. They said since mine were from a shipment received last September, I may not have any defective, but later shipments started having the issue. I'll need to check when the sap starts running.
Was told Leader will replace any def. ones and pay $1.00 each for having to fix the problem. That is better than nothing, but hardly enough to pay the cost of all the extra work. When I find a leak, I need to remove the tap, cut it off, put it in a zip lock bag and install a good one. Leave it to Leader to get these out so fast that they miss such a problem in quality control (if they have such).

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

The girl at Leader said to look if the air bubble in the plastic comes to the surface near the base of the cross. She also said you could suck or blow on them to find a leak.
never bought a cv spout do they go right into the tree or adapter first. If you suck or blow on a spout and it goes directly into the tree and has contact with the wood the bacteria from your mouth will contaminate the hole and start to heal. Which would be counter productive because thats why you are buying the cv spouts to keep bacteria out.

[happy thoughts]

never bought a cv spout do they go right into the tree or adapter first. If you suck or blow on a spout and it goes directly into the tree and has contact with the wood the bacteria from your mouth will contaminate the hole and start to heal. Which would be counter productive because thats why you are buying the cv spouts to keep bacteria out.

I was thinking the same thing. I've never used a CV spout either but that sounds like bad advice to me. You're not supposed to blow into a taphole. Putting spouts in your mouth has got to be even worse.

[Brian Ryther]

I called them and they said they would give you a dollar of in store credit for every leaker you find in the woods.
In my woods a tap is worth $18 in production.

[rgmaple]

I've got a bunch of them. Use a toothpick and the hole stands right out. It is on the top half of the cross, on either side, left or right. My bunch had about 25% bad in each bag of 100. Very disappointed with the quality.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I was thinking the same thing. I've never used a CV spout either but that sounds like bad advice to me. You're not supposed to blow into a taphole. Putting spouts in your mouth has got to be even worse.
Not to change the thread, but heard of a guy who chewed on his tubing in the woods to install new fittings. Well the story went he got an infection in his mouth from the bacteria on the tubing. The bacteria got down into his gums and did a job I guess so another reason not to stick things in your mouth that dont belong there.

Are the cv spouts being made in china now? or still USA made?

[ryebrye]

In my woods a tap is worth $18 in production.

Yeah, but they wouldn't want to pay you $18 for a leaking one... It's defective! :lol:

[Brian Ryther]

Yeah, but they wouldn't want to pay you $18 for a leaking one... It's defective! :lol:
Those of us who count on sap production for our income do not find it funny. $1 dollar in store credit is an insult. Not only the lost sap production but what about the labor? Have you ever tried to remove a polycarbonate spout that was recently installed? Not an easy thing to do. Also what damage is happening to the tap hole during that process? Forget it. Count that tree out of top production.

[Mountain Winds Farm]

Not quite where you are Brian ,only pushing 1700 taps,but I am thinking you carry a couple of tubes of white silicone in your satchel as you make the rounds. Find a leaker put a dab of silicone on it. Pain in the backside to have to check them all but will be a whole lot quicker and easier than a change out. And no they do not remove from a fresh whole very well at all.

[mountainvan]

Glad I only got 400 to try.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Leader has had nothing but trouble with the cv,s since they first started making them. Its either a plastic thing with them shatering the first time and the second time was the littles balls slipping through and some of them making it to the releaser and now this with the leak thing. And on top of that they are the most expensive seasonal spout out there. I tried them last year and the year before and the clear straight through spout went just as long for a third of the price. The cv is a great idea in theory but if they have all these problems every year then why use them. Sure the cv,s might go a little bit longer at the end but by that time you are making unfiltered mersh.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Tried the black ones once. Last ones to start running and first ones to quit. I feel really bad for anybody having them now. Truly is a tough pill to swallow. Making a living doing this, I if I had them I would be livid !

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Does anyone have any idea of how many bad batches went out? I mean are we talking like 2 weeks of production, or 4 months. This is crazy and at .40 per, I would expect a little better qc. I mean they must have made millllllllions off getting everyone in the maple world to buy them. I would guess it will take a person a day or two to check for leaks per thousand taps. If you find 30 taps that leak you could get $18 for your time.

[rgmaple]

I have almost 1300 new CV2's in. I got a call from my dealer about the issue. I was told early production looked good, but somehow as time went on 1 spot on the mold developed a problem that started leaving a pin hole leak in the flat spot near the cross. I don't know how many taps are made at a time, but it was just 1 position on the multiple tap mold. Was told that those with good eyes can see it. They said since mine were from a shipment received last September, I may not have any defective, but later shipments started having the issue. I'll need to check when the sap starts running.
Was told Leader will replace any def. ones and pay $1.00 each for having to fix the problem. That is better than nothing, but hardly enough to pay the cost of all the extra work. When I find a leak, I need to remove the tap, cut it off, put it in a zip lock bag and install a good one. Leave it to Leader to get these out so fast that they miss such a problem in quality control (if they have such).

This is not true. The pin holes are on the left OR right side of the top half of the cross. We have bag after bag of bad spouts. This was discovered after the vacuum was used for the first time. The 2nd batch of spouts they gave us was just as bad as the first. The trees sound like a choir.

[BAP]

Not quite where you are Brian ,only pushing 1700 taps,but I am thinking you carry a couple of tubes of white silicone in your satchel as you make the rounds. Find a leaker put a dab of silicone on it. Pain in the backside to have to check them all but will be a whole lot quicker and easier than a change out. And no they do not remove from a fresh whole very well at all.
Silicone may be quicker, but it is not likely to hold if you are doing it while the vacuum is running. At cold temperatures, it takes many hours or even days for the silicone to cure and vacuum will suck the wet silicone into the lines.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I bet the clear cv without the ball is affected by this problem too. Some of these guys that have 20,000 out right now have alot of work ahead of them. I feel really bad for these guys. Leader should be embarassed. Like Scribner said , its all about quality control. How many more problems are they going to have with these things. The first year when the cv1s came out , after i bought 4000 of them they told me i had to put a little bit of water in each bag so the plastic would take the water in so they wouldnt break. That tells me that they were defective too.

[spud]

I have all CV2s in my woods this year. Although it is much to early to report on my production everything seems to be going well so far. I did get a fair amount of sap last weekend and my vacuum in the woods was 27-28 for all of it. I have not noticed any pin hole leaks in my spouts. I did buy my spouts back in the fall maybe September or early October so maybe I am one of the lucky ones. I do know that if I had pin hole leaks in my spouts I would sue Leader for lost production if the loss was large enough. I would not let Leader get away with giving me a dollar per spout (that would be a slap in the face). If these spouts were made in China they would be perfect (except the ball would be lead):lol:

Some people will tell you that the CV2s were made to extend your season and that is true in part. It has also been said that nobody wants late season sap because it is poor quality and that also is true in part. You hear people say that whatever spout they use is still wet when they pull it so they don't need a CV2 spout. The concept behind the CV spout is to not allow bacteria back into the tap hole during back flow (yes EVERYONE has back flow to some degree). By not allowing bacteria back into the tap hole your tap hole will take longer to heal. By the time the month of April comes along tap holes are beginning to heal but they still give sap. You might be getting a half gallon of sap per tap hole at that time but you could be getting one gallon of sap using the CV2 spouts. The reason for this is because the CV holes are healing slower and allowing more sap to flow out of them. Last year 60% of my production came in April. All but one or two runs were of quality sap (just less sugar). My hope for this year is to get more sap in April (more productive sap runs) using the CV2s but maintain quality sap almost right to the end. Only time will tell and you can be sure I will report my numbers at the end of the season. I feel for those who got some bad spouts and I hope everything will be worked out before the real season starts. Good luck to all.

Spud

[rgmaple]

Spud -these are all reasons why we bought the clear cv2 spouts. What we didn't want or need is the pinholes. Didn't even notice the pinholes until we turned the vacuum on. We are going to have to go back through the 7000 taps we put up to see which ones leak. Still tapping using NOT Leader. Using CDL and LaPierre instead.

[spud]

Spud -these are all reasons why we bought the clear cv2 spouts. What we didn't want or need is the pinholes. Didn't even notice the pinholes until we turned the vacuum on. We are going to have to go back through the 7000 taps we put up to see which ones leak. Still tapping using NOT Leader. Using CDL and LaPierre instead.

I hope and pray you only have a handful of bad spouts and that you find them fast. When I was tapping I broke a few of these spouts and the tip stayed in the tree. I drilled them out and put a new spout in but question if that was a good idea. I flagged the spout and know where they are so if they do start leaking during the season I will pull them. My only other option would be to ream the hole to 7/16 and put in a bigger spout for one season. I wish you the best.

Spud

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I would sue as well ! No question ! To offer a dollar a spout is about the same as offering people who spend thousands a hot dog and a cold drink !

[Randy Brutkoski]

7000, that is going to be alot of work. If you find 200 leader will give you $200. I would tell them to keep the $200 and get there sh-t together. This could be real bad for leader.

[batsofbedlam]

Beginning to sound like one big rumor mill.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Beginning to sound like one big rumor mill.

It came right from Leader. How is that a rumor ?

[BAP]

Before everybody gets to torked off, I guess most of you either don't know because you are too young or don't remember tubing that would shatter in the cold after the second or third year at the slightest touch. Fittings that would snap when you touched the lines below 35 degrees. Tubing and fittings not being consistently sized so they went together hard. So on and so on. These spouts are not the first product in maple tubing history that has had problems. Many were not admitted to by the companies that made them. In this day and age, too many people expect everything to be perfect or else they scream they are going to sue. Sure, it sucks when something like this happens, sure it costs money, but get over it and except that anything man made has the likely hood to have problems at some point and time. Nothing in this world is perfect.

[spud]

Before everybody gets to torked off, I guess most of you either don't know because you are too young or don't remember tubing that would shatter in the cold after the second or third year at the slightest touch. Fittings that would snap when you touched the lines below 35 degrees. Tubing and fittings not being consistently sized so they went together hard. So on and so on. These spouts are not the first product in maple tubing history that has had problems. Many were not admitted to by the companies that made them. In this day and age, too many people expect everything to be perfect or else they scream they are going to sue. Sure, it sucks when something like this happens, sure it costs money, but get over it and except that anything man made has the likely hood to have problems at some point and time. Nothing in this world is perfect.

BAP you have got to be kidding. I remember the day's of poor tubing and different size fittings. Back then the US Maple fittings seemed to work best but because we chewed on all our tubing and stretched it too much just to keep it tight things came apart all the time. Tubing tools and new style tubing/fittings are a God send for sure. The pin hole leak in the new CV2s is a whole different issue. There is a big difference between a 100 tap back yard operation like yours and a 7000 tap operation like rgmaple has. 7000 CV2s cost $2800.00 and a sugar maker with 7000 taps hopes to make 3500 gallons of syrup valued at $105,000 dollars. If every spout has a pinhole and no high vacuum will work because of this the sugar maker will only make about half production meaning he could loose $52,500 dollars. To tell this sugar maker to (get over it is wrong on your part). I could tap your whole woods in 45 minutes but it would take me two full weeks of back breaking work to tap rgmaples woods. When a person buys a product they expect that product to work the way the seller is claiming it will. The bigger problem with this pin hole issue is you might not be able to just pull the spouts and replace them. The tips could break off and stay in the tree causing a bigger problem. If this happens replacing spouts and removing tips could take 15-20 full days in waist deep snow (not 45 minutes). How many sap runs could be lost in the next 20 days? This is a VERY BIG DEAL to real sugar maker's and LEADER needs to fix it fast and be held ACCOUNTABLE.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

The tips could break off and stay in the tree causing a bigger problem.

First off, I don't know anything more than what has already been said here, so I won't comment on what happened, how Leader Evaporator is responding, or what the fix will be. I do know that they are cognizant of the problem and are working on it. I'm pretty sure that spouts made prior to January 2014 were not affected, or at the very least had a much lower incidence of problems. If you got them before January 2014, you're probably fine.

I did want to respond to the specific comment above. The tips (the very small end part of the assembly) that sometimes come out of the CV2 when you pull spouts is known to happen on some percentage of spouts. That is NOT a problem. If it happens when you pull spouts, it is best to just leave them in. The hole is there and won't fill in (never does) and the small piece of plastic will just stay there in the hole. If the tree is cut up later, the plastic won't affect a chainsaw. You are likely to do more damage by drilling it out than by simply leaving it in. Same thing holds for if you have to replace a spout. Just pull out the old one, and if the tip stays in the tree, put the new spout right in the same hole. The tip that was left in the tree will just get pushed a little deeper in. The only time this might be a problem is if you drill really shallow holes and the spout bottoms out.....if you do that, then you're either not drilling deep enough, or you're pounding the spouts in too far.

[unc23win]

Boy wouldn't it be nice if they came with production dates in the bags and knew when they started to have problems so they could issue a proper re call.

[spud]

Dr. Tim,

There is no doubt in my mind the tip will never hurt the tree if left in the tree. Chainsaws and other blades will be fine like you say. Although I really don't think production would stay the same if there was a second tip jammed in the tap hole. I can't help to wonder why there is not a quality control person checking 1 out of every 1000 made for defects.

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Dr. Tim,

There is no doubt in my mind the tip will never hurt the tree if left in the tree. Chainsaws and other blades will be fine like you say. Although I really don't think production would stay the same if there was a second tip jammed in the tap hole. I can't help to wonder why there is not a quality control person checking 1 out of every 1000 made for defects.

Spud
It would cost to much spid by the time you pay a person minimum wage obama care affordiable health ins, workers comp, etc etc easier to pay a dollar a tap and know that every one will come back next year to buy more

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I wonder how many landowners would like the thought that when a producer is pulling his taps that they are only pulling half the tap ? It might fly within the industry but a lot of landowners wouldn't buy it !

[DrTimPerkins]

I can't help to wonder why there is not a quality control person checking 1 out of every 1000 made for defects.

Last I knew (which was a few years back now), there was a QC program in place. Something apparently changed...but I can't tell you what that was. I am sure that this is being looked into.

As far as the tip reducing flow.....I would think that at most it would be a miniscule impact (if any), especially with spouts on vacuum.

[Randy Brutkoski]

BAP you have got to be kidding. I remember the day's of poor tubing and different size fittings. Back then the US Maple fittings seemed to work best but because we chewed on all our tubing and stretched it too much just to keep it tight things came apart all the time. Tubing tools and new style tubing/fittings are a God send for sure. The pin hole leak in the new CV2s is a whole different issue. There is a big difference between a 100 tap back yard operation like yours and a 7000 tap operation like rgmaple has. 7000 CV2s cost $2800.00 and a sugar maker with 7000 taps hopes to make 3500 gallons of syrup valued at $105,000 dollars. If every spout has a pinhole and no high vacuum will work because of this the sugar maker will only make about half production meaning he could loose $52,500 dollars. To tell this sugar maker to (get over it is wrong on your part). I could tap your whole woods in 45 minutes but it would take me two full weeks of back breaking work to tap rgmaples woods. When a person buys a product they expect that product to work the way the seller is claiming it will. The bigger problem with this pin hole issue is you might not be able to just pull the spouts and replace them. The tips could break off and stay in the tree causing a bigger problem. If this happens replacing spouts and removing tips could take 15-20 full days in waist deep snow (not 45 minutes). How many sap runs could be lost in the next 20 days? This is a VERY BIG DEAL to real sugar maker's and LEADER needs to fix it fast and be held ACCOUNTABLE.

SpudSpud, Your comment was perfectly said. I agree with you 100%. I have about 8000 taps and if this happened to me i would be furious. I have replied a quite a bit on this thread because I know how much work this is and i feel so bad for fellow sugarmakers that this is happening to. The window for sap to run is very small. It could be a very short season. Again I do not blame Tim Perkins for all of these mistakes over the past few years with the check valves. I think it is a great idea he came up with. But LEADER needs to go back the drawing board and get all there ducks in a row. just sayin

[BAP]

First off Spud, if you are afraid to share how many taps you have in your profile, don't make comment about my 100+. For your information, I have tapped trees for 40 years and at one time had almost 17,000 on taps. So don't question my knowledge of costs. My point being, this is not the first time something like this has happened in the maple industry. Has anybody actually picked the phone up and called Leader and talked to somebody in charge? Or are you all content to B***** about it on the forum and not do anything else. The squeaky wheel gets greased. Also US Maple products were the second worst breaking fittings next to the original Lamb.

[DrTimPerkins]

I wonder how many landowners would like the thought that when a producer is pulling his taps that they are only pulling half the tap ?

The tip of the spout is 5.5% of the weight of the total spout. Not all spouts come apart. So we are talking about a tiny percentage of the small fraction of the total number of spouts that actually do come apart. This is nowhere near leaving "half the tap."

[Maplewalnut]

Wow I feel like an a$$. Just saw this thread and now it explains all the leaky taps I had. I blamed my older son for tapping 'too hard' and cracking the tap. You can imagine how mad I was after the 20th or so one I found in the same section of woods. Easy to find but lots of needless walking. Looks like this will cost me a new pair of sneakers for him as an apology....wait.... a dollar a tap wont even pay for that!!!

[Greenwich Maple Man]

The tip of the spout is 5.5% of the weight of the total spout. Not all spouts come apart. So we are talking about a tiny percentage of the small fraction of the total number of spouts that actually do come apart. This is nowhere near leaving "half the tap."


Going by the weight of the spout compared to what is left in SOME cases is splitting hairs ! When somebody pulls there tap the complete tap should be pulled not half or a quarter or 94.5%.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Out of the 500 cv2s i had last year i would say about 50 to 60 broke off into the tree when i was pulling taps. And not with a hammer, with a lappiere pulling tool. I will never use them again. And yes about half of the spout in the tree.

[DrTimPerkins]

When somebody pulls there tap the complete tap should be pulled

Not trying to be argumentative, however if that is the standard, then NO polycarbonate spout I have used is suitable. I have had at least some of every manufacturer's spout break off when pulling them.

[DrTimPerkins]

Out of the 500 cv2s i had last year i would say about 50 to 60 broke off into the tree when i was pulling taps.

Randy.....that is an abnormally high number, and I am at a loss to explain why your numbers would be so high. All types of polycarbonate spouts grip the tree better (good in some ways, not good in others), and they are a real bugger to pull compared to nylon spouts. We use a variety of spout pullers here (including the Lapierre tool) and I know that we have not experienced nearly as high a number as that. I do have rough numbers from last year, but as a result of your experience, I will keep track of it myself in my research area and also ask our crew to record the number of spouts that break and the numbers that lose their tips at the end of this season.

[CampHamp]

If the hole is exposed, could you sear it with a soldering iron to close it up? I see they make butane powered ones.

[DrTimPerkins]

If the hole is exposed, could you sear it with a soldering iron to close it up? I see they make butane powered ones.

No....definitely NOT.

[CampHamp]

No....definitely NOT.
I was thinking low setting (melt/not burn) and flat head. Is it toxic or something? SORRY if this is obvious to everyone.

[DrTimPerkins]

I was thinking low setting (melt/not burn) and flat head. Is it toxic or something? SORRY if this is obvious to everyone.

It would not help close the hole. If anything, it would cause further damage to the cambial zone and impede taphole closure and the normal wound response.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Out of the 500 cv2s i had last year i would say about 50 to 60 broke off into the tree when i was pulling taps. And not with a hammer, with a lappiere pulling tool. I will never use them again. And yes about half of the spout in the tree.

Looks like you and I have the same standard Randy.

[northwoods_forestry]

It would not help close the hole. If anything, it would cause further damage to the cambial zone and impede taphole closure and the normal wound response.

I think he meant the hole in the CV, not the hole in the tree...

[CampHamp]

I can image the PITA this will become for you big outfits, so here's one last try for a fix that might avoid the early-season broken tap: A butane glue gun fitted with FDA-approved glue sticks.

Butane Glue Gun (http://www.amazon.com/Master-Appliance-GG-100K-Portapro-Powered/dp/B0002WSBX4/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1393885325&sr=1-1&keywords=Butane+Glue+Gun#productDetails)

FDA Approved Glue Sticks (http://www.amazon.com/Surebonder-725R510-10-Inch-Temperature-candles/dp/B001FWXXII/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393886493&sr=8-1&keywords=Glue+Sticks+Food)

[CampHamp]

I think he meant the hole in the CV, not the hole in the tree...

Yes! I'm talking about fixing the hole in a tap without having to pull and potentially break the thing. I was wondering why Tim was being so dismissive... Ha ha!

[spud]

First off Spud, if you are afraid to share how many taps you have in your profile, don't make comment about my 100+. For your information, I have tapped trees for 40 years and at one time had almost 17,000 on taps. So don't question my knowledge of costs. My point being, this is not the first time something like this has happened in the maple industry. Has anybody actually picked the phone up and called Leader and talked to somebody in charge? Or are you all content to B***** about it on the forum and not do anything else. The squeaky wheel gets greased. Also US Maple products were the second worst breaking fittings next to the original Lamb.

Way to dodge your arrogant comment BAP. Last time I checked my profile it said 6500 taps all on CV2s. I am soon to be 8500-9000 taps. The real problem I had with your earlier post was you said sugar maker's just need to (get over it ) while talking about the leaky CV2 spouts. It does not matter to you because you're not the one loosing thousands of dollars. You're not the one in waist deep snow possibly fixing 7000-50,000 spouts before the sap runs. You're not the one paying a crew to help you make these fixes. I guess in your mind you feel ( if it does not affect you then who cares). People have called Leader and some are saying they are offering $1.00 per spout. We have already talked about that in past post. The squeaky wheels are the ones that are not going to stop talking about this issue until Leader takes action. If Leader is truly committed to providing sugar maker's with the highest quality product (American made) then they should post something on this site. It's the 10,000 people on this site that keeps Leader in business. Talk to us Leader (show us your concern for this matter) we would love to hear from you. Please assure us all that you're working around the clock to fix this problem before the sap runs. Assure your customers with leaky spouts that you have their back and are committed to helping them. Maple Trader is the biggest (and by far) the best maple site in the world. If Leader Evaporator was truly committed to the people in the maple industry they would be on this site talking (and identifying themselves). BAP I hope you have a great season.

Spud

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

People have called Leader and some are saying they are offering $1.00 per spout. We have already talked about that in past post. The squeaky wheels are the ones that are not going to stop talking about this issue until Leader takes action. If Leader is truly committed to providing sugar maker's with the highest quality product (American made) then they should post something on this site. It's the 10,000 people on this site that keeps Leader in business. Talk to us Leader (show us your concern for this matter) we would love to hear from you. Please assure us all that you're working around the clock to fix this problem before the sap runs. Assure your customers with leaky spouts that you have their back and are committed to helping them. Maple Trader is the biggest (and by far) the best maple site in the world. If Leader Evaporator was truly committed to the people in the maple industry they would be on this site talking (and identifying themselves).

Spud[/QUOTE]
amen, it's time to solve the problem created and be open and honest

[BAP]

Didn't know this was your exclusive site Spud, my mistake. I learned long ago not to trust Leader.

[DrTimPerkins]

I can image the PITA this will become for you big outfits, so here's one last try for a fix that might avoid the early-season broken tap: A butane glue gun fitted with FDA-approved glue sticks.

I apologize if I misunderstood you earlier, however I still fail to see the point of trying to close off the hole at the end of the season (which is what I was talking about). If a spout (whatever kind) broke off enough so it sticks out of the taphole, then use a pair of vice-grips and pull it out. If it breaks off inside the hole, then let it be.

[Randy Brutkoski]

BAP must be or at one time was a leader dealer.

[CampHamp]

I apologize if I misunderstood you earlier...
No problem - sorry for not being more clear! I am suggesting that if people have defective taps installed and sucking air and they want to fix the tap without removing it, they may be able to repair the hole in the tap by melting the plastic surrounding the hole while applying some pressure so the melted plastic would fuse the hole shut. The 2nd idea (after I thought you were saying that first idea wouldn't work) is to use a glue gun and FDA-approved plastic and just drop a dab of plastic over the hole. These ideas would need to be tested, obviously. The tools would need to be mobile, so I noted that there are butane-powered soldering irons (with temp controls) and butane-powered glue guns.

[DrTimPerkins]

Apologies upfront for responding to so many posts in one message....but here goes.

Jamie (CampHamp).....Thank you for the clarification. Now I understand. That might work, but I'd be far more inclined to just remove the leaking spout and put a new one in.

Spud.....it sounds like you probably won't have any issues if you bought your spouts prior to January. If you had 27+ inches and didn't notice the problem....you clearly are fine. We (I hope) are in the same situation....I bought ours this fall as things get too busy close to the season. We haven't yet turned on the vacuum pumps, so no knowing for sure until then.

Group......I do not want to diminish the issue for anyone else, but clearly not all the spouts leak. From what little I've heard, it is a small percentage and can vary considerably by batch. Even so, I agree that it is a PITA that producers don't need, and that this shouldn't have made it past QC. I do think it might be premature to assign blame at this point. I'm sure at some point we'll know better what happened. Doesn't help much right now though, and I suspect that Leader's efforts right now are focused on fixing the problem.

Randy....I really don't know why you had that many break when you pulled them, but I WILL be checking on it and will report back to this group at the end of the season. If you think of anything else that might be helpful, please let me know.

Greenwich....I don't know why the CV2 didn't perform for you, but I'd be happy to hear more about the circumstances so I can understand the issue. Feel free to PM me anytime you wish.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Tim, I appretiate everything you do to help poeple on this site. Keep doing what you are doing, You are only helping all of us out.ty

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

It is true that not every producer was affected. I spoke with another producer today with 2,000 taps that is all CV2. he got his taps in two batches and both seem to be okay so far. I think what is important for all of us to note is to not diminish what affect this can have on a commercial operation. We are talking thousands in labor and possibly thousands in lost production. I do agree with spud in that Leader should get ahead of this to accept blame where blame is due and to offer the best solution they have to date.

Ben

[spud]

Dr Tim,

You know I am one of you're biggest fans I know you have nothing to do with the spouts with pin hole leaks either. I am 100% sold on the CV2 spouts and I am very excited to be using them this year. I have no doubt in my mind these spouts will help me be a more productive sugar maker. My heart does go out to those who got leakers and I hope they can fix the problem before the sap starts running. Let's hope we all have a great season.

Spud

[Cameron Duke]

Could anyone in the thread post a picture of a defective one if they are so prevalent? i think that would help a lot of people understand where to look.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Dr Tim,

You know I am one of you're biggest fans .

Spud
Thats not what you told me the other day Spud hehe:lol:

[spud]

You're just mad because you did not get an invite to the first annual PMRC Ball Room Dance. I hear there is going to be some Helium STEM dancing on the side.

Spud

[Randy Brutkoski]

I had better dust off my dancin shoes. Maybe dr. Tim will let us know how he is doing on his end on the H.I. testing.

[DrTimPerkins]

Maybe dr. Tim will let us know how he is doing on his end on the H.I. testing.

Sorry, still unable to comment.

[Homestead Maple]

Didn't know this was your exclusive site Spud, my mistake. I learned long ago not to trust Leader.

I wouldn't think that Leader even sees the spouts before they are packaged. Wouldn't it be the people that manufacture these spouts are the ones that dropped the ball as far as quality control? I would think that a $1 per spout was very fair offer considering that Leader could have just offered a replacement for free and that was it. Seems that is what most sellers do when there is a problem with what they sell, replace like for like. A friend of mine was telling me he bought some IPL tubing one year and by the next season most of the tubing was on the ground, broken into short pieces. IPL didn't do any thing more than offer some replacement tubing. I think Leader has offered more than anyone could ask.

[Bentley Wood Maple]

I wonder if we got lucky? Ethan was breaking about every 3rd tap he was hammering in.So dad traded the drill for the hammer and things went much better, I broke only a couple. Suspect they wrre the ones with the pinhole flaw?? Sure hope so

[Cameron Duke]

How about if there are so many with flaws somebody should take all of there defective ones and lay them out on a table and show what it looks like? or just a picture of one.... just one? anyone?

[Brian Ryther]

I wouldn't think that Leader even sees the spouts before they are packaged. Wouldn't it be the people that manufacture these spouts are the ones that dropped the ball as far as quality control? I would think that a $1 per spout was very fair offer considering that Leader could have just offered a replacement for free and that was it. Seems that is what most sellers do when there is a problem with what they sell, replace like for like. A friend of mine was telling me he bought some IPL tubing one year and by the next season most of the tubing was on the ground, broken into short pieces. IPL didn't do any thing more than offer some replacement tubing. I think Leader has offered more than anyone could ask.
The weather was warm enough to turning on the vacuum pumps today. I walked a new section of woods that is all new. I found a tap that was drilled into bad wood and had a leak that was noticeable. I tried to remove the cv2 from the tree. I only got 2/3 of it out of the tree. the tip broke off and was left 1/2 way in the hole. If I had to remove 4 thousand of these how would I do it? would I have to drill out the remaining tips? Surely making a imperfect hole that would leak vacuum. $1 is not even close to the cost of having to replace a spout. I am fortunate that I purchased my spouts in the spring and do not have to deal with the leaking spouts. My thoughts are with those who have the bad luck of the leaking spouts. Sugaring is hard enough when everything goes well.

[northwoods_forestry]

3 years ago I put in a couple of hundred new droplines. Turned out 10% of the leader cup T's were not open between the drop line and the lateral (the top of the T didn't connect with the bottom). The droplines just filled with sap with nowhere to go! Took a while for me to figure out what was up but I ended up replacing those drops and took the faulty T's to the dealer at the end of the season. They gave me "free" replacements for each of the bad T's (20 out of the 200 I had purchased).

[WESTMAPLES]

today I turned on the vac on one of my sugarbushes grabbed my hammer and 1 handed tool and started walking. gave each spout a good tap ( had a few leakers). got to the last few trees and broke one of the leader clear CV spouts off right before the head on the tree end and I was surprised that there was NO vac leak. as soon as I cut off the broken head, it started to whistle. right where the 90 degree corner meets inside the spout WAS NOT DRILLED THRU couldn't even get air thru it with the compressor. check yours good. im steamin abit over it and I only have alittle under 400 in.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Another problem, And you may not even be able to tell if they are working right or not because the system is still tight. wow.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Another problem, And you may not even be able to tell if they are working right or not because the system is still tight. wow.

I feel really bad for guys with these CV's . Brian said it best. It is hard enough when you have properly produced material. When it comes brand new and defective that makes everything so much harder. A dollar is a insult if Leader wants to make this right for the people that bough these they should be paying for the time to replace the spout or providing the labor in areas they can.

[markct]

Im baffled how my 2009 clearance check valves, that were supposed to have so many problems hence the update and discounting of these, have been fine, used nearly 3000 of them over the past few years and dont recall a single breakage or leak realy

[Big John]

I have 3500+ in one bush. we broke 2 one was my fault the 90 hit the bark and it bent the end right off. The other we don't know why. I purchased in november at bascoms. Got 400 gallons of sap out of it yesterday I walked half of the wood, the only leak was 4 bear bites in my main line. cv2 seems like a very good answer.

[WESTMAPLES]

I bought my clear cv from Bascom`s in dec when I was there, i didn`t find any with the pin hole problem, that's what i was mostly worried about seeing everyone was talking about. i have found 3 so far that where not drilled thru, the way ive checked them is to see if there wet looking inside, if there looking dry i pulled them out, no vac leak and sure enough they`re blocked. i see the blocked spout as a unforeseen loose of profit , well will see what happens good luck to everyone

[Brian Ryther]

Im baffled how my 2009 clearance check valves, that were supposed to have so many problems hence the update and discounting of these, have been fine, used nearly 3000 of them over the past few years and dont recall a single breakage or leak realy
The first generation cv's were too quick to market and did not have a chance to "cure." They were brittle the first year. If yours are a few years old then they must be fully cured by now and good to go .

[TheMapleMoose]

Put 500 cv2s in my woods this weekend will keep an eye out for leakers or plugged taps. There were no obvious pinholes when we were making drops. The cv1s we put in my fathers woods are a different story. 400 in and we've broken about 25-30. Some bags are fine, with no broken spouts. We've got 600ish more to go so we will see what happens... The tap into the tree fine but when the stubby goes on they crack open. Not a huge deal, just weird having to carry my spout puller while tapping :/
90849085

Sorry for the pics being sideways, iPhone illiterate i guess.

It's easy to tell they broke because it's like brittle plastic. With one light tap there is a "snap" and the stubby bottoms out in it.

[white mt]

I don't recall having any of the cv spouts break when they first came out, now I am having them split at the start of the shaft and the head you hit with your hammer when I tap .

[happy thoughts]

So drill them out if they do break don't leave them in the tree. My two cents

I don'rt use CVs but have been following this thread. Just want to repost something Dr. Tim said earlier in this thread about spiles that break in tap holes His recommendation is to leave them alone. You can put a new spout in the same hole if needed.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?22331-Leader-CV-Spouts&p=243472#post243472

The tips (the very small end part of the assembly) that sometimes come out of the CV2 when you pull spouts is known to happen on some percentage of spouts. That is NOT a problem. If it happens when you pull spouts, it is best to just leave them in. The hole is there and won't fill in (never does) and the small piece of plastic will just stay there in the hole. If the tree is cut up later, the plastic won't affect a chainsaw. You are likely to do more damage by drilling it out than by simply leaving it in. Same thing holds for if you have to replace a spout. Just pull out the old one, and if the tip stays in the tree, put the new spout right in the same hole. The tip that was left in the tree will just get pushed a little deeper in. The only time this might be a problem is if you drill really shallow holes and the spout bottoms out.....if you do that, then you're either not drilling deep enough, or you're pounding the spouts in too far.

Good luck this season. May all your CVs be good ones:)

[white mt]

Im talking about more than the tip breaking off stated by DR Tim I should have made that clear .Half or more of the shaft breaks off for me could be different from other stated issue. Good luck to all.

[adk1]

Themaplemoose judging by the pic you seem to really tap the stubby into the cv. My stubby is usually one half way in the cv. Don't know if it is right or wrong just somethin I noticed

[lpakiz]

I use stubbies and cv1s. After driving the spout in, are you inserting the stubby by hand? Or do you drive the stubby onto the seated spout? Or do you assemble both parts and drive both in at the same time?

[TheMapleMoose]

We tap in the spout first and the attach the stubby by hand and then give it a light tap. And I mean light. The stubbys in the pic look like they have been driven on but that is what happens when they break. Usualy the stubby is only half way in and you can't push it on further. Never had an issue before and it's only been about 10 or so taps out of the bag. You might put 2 bags on with no problem and then get a bad batch.
Like i said, with just a light tap the spout breaks and the stubby bottoms out. We are not over driving them. We've been using cvs for the last 3 years or so and haven't had any problems.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Leader might want to go back to the drawing board.

[adk1]

I have never had one single cv break. This will be my third year with them. I use the black cv spouts I guess you would call them cv2 right?

[Randy Brutkoski]

cv2s are clear and 1 piece. no stubby.

[lpakiz]

Maple moose,
Sounds like you are doing everything right. I do about the same, except twist the stubby in by hand only, and try to leave the drop line a little below horizontal, so it drains well, yet I can form a trap easily to see how it is running. I have not tapped yet this year, but have used them for 3 years, without any problems so far. Do you suspect some of the spouts are too brittle?

[TheMapleMoose]

Yeah, they seem brittle. Our dealer said to put an ounce of water in than bag for 24hrs so we did that yesterday but haven't been out tapping again yet. Almost sounds like they aren't cured and the moisture finishes the process

[West Mountain Maple]

I'm using the Leader clear seasonal spouts, the cv2 without the ball, not quite all tapped in and came across this thread so I got to looking at them good. Haven't found any pin holes, but about 1/4 of them have some plastic hanging inside from where the cross is, and are almost blocked off, way harder to suck through than the unobstructed ones. The hole left is so small that a small wood chip left from drilling would clog it, seems this could hinder production even more than the pin hole problem!! Think i'll be going with straight seasonals from another company in the future.

[TheMapleMoose]

Well, this is a new one.....

[GeneralStark]

From tapping?

[markcasper]

Something does not look right in that picture. The spout looks old and used, the CV looks pretty mangled and has pliers marks dug into the plastic. I have never seen anything like your picture suggests. Did it get tapped in way too far and then tried to get it back out? I put a teaspoon of water in each bag the day before tapping to help soften things. Leader dealer suggested doing it and works. Very few have ever split.

[hogisland42]

My guess is somebody tried to clean them by boiling them which made them brittle. Don't ask me how I know they get weak from boiling. They definetly do not look like new adapters I agree markcasper.

[TheMapleMoose]

You guys don't have much faith in me, sheesh. These were brand new out of the bag. The plier marks were from pulling them back out after finding out they were broken, I don't usually carry my spout puller when tapping. Its only 3 out of 1000 so far, but time will better tell when we get some more leak finding weather.
Its easy to tell someone that they are driving them in too hard, but its not like this is our first rodeo, and there is only two of us doing he tapping, to avoid problems such as driving them too hard.
I was curious if anyone had run into a problem with the stems breaking, but I guess it's safe to assume nobody is having the same problem?

[CampHamp]

I put a teaspoon of water in each bag the day before tapping to help soften things. Leader dealer suggested doing it and works.
The plastic is absorbing water? I would have never thought... Maybe just lubes the tapping.

[WestfordSugarworks]

We used the Leader clear polycarbonate 90 degree spout on our 2500 tap sugarbush. As far as I can tell, these are the exact same as the CV2 except no ball. I had about 10 of these spouts snap in half at the 90 degree junction, leaving me with no way to pull the broken stem out of the tap hole. I found that they were less likely to break if I didn't hold the dropline while tapping the spout in. So 10 spouts broke this way leaving the stem stuck in the tree, and I found a couple more that were cracked or shattered when I went to tap them in a bit more. I don't believe that i'm hammering in the spout too hard, if anything I wasn't tapping these in far enough, because they have more of a taper as compared to the CDL smart spouts i used at our bigger sugarbush and i'm not used to this gradual taper. Anyway, i had to be much more gentle using these spouts and also had to drill a second hole in about 15 trees because the first spout broke in some way. These trees have been tapped for 25 years and the last thing I want to do is put an unnecessary second hole in them. Anyway, this turns me off from the CV2s a good deal. With the CDL smart spout I could really torque on them anyway I wanted to and the only thing that would break is the head of the spout that you tap on. Anyone else experience this problem? Sorry if this has already been discussed

[GeneralStark]

This is my second season using CV2s on anything but a brand new drop, and about my 6th season using smart spouts and I do find that the CV2 is a bit more fragile. I do tap with a tapping mallet. I think a common mentality amongst tappers is that you really have to slam the tap home to get it to not leak, but I have not found that to be the case. My first season with smart spouts I broke a few, and ended up splitting the bark on several trees, especially red maples. Since then I have backed off and only have to tap a smart spout a few times to get it to seal in the taphole. The CV2 in my experience will take one or two more taps due to the taper.

I would say that if you are breaking spouts you may want to consider dialing it back a little bit.

[ennismaple]

We've used CV's almost exclusively since 2010 and of the 20,000+ we've installed in that timeframe we have not had a single one break. Hitting the CV too many times with the nylon hammer can cause the ball to pop out but that's been the extent of our issues.

[markcasper]

I think your right when it comes to people tapping too hard. I have had two other less experienced syrup makers help me with tapping and how in a nice way do you tell them they are tapping too hard? I have found this in my experience. If you can't pull them out with your two hands, then its been pounded in too hard.

[ennismaple]

If you can't pull them out with your two hands, then its been pounded in too hard.

Agreed. We have the same guys help us tap every year and I still do a spot check every few hours to make sure they are not over driving the spouts but they are still seated properly. I can normally tell by the number of strikes and the sound if they are in the Goldilocks zone - not too hard, not too soft but just right!

I have taken pictures of split sapwood where the spout was over-driven the previous year to share with all our helpers. I don't want the tree damaged but I also don't want to have to re-seat every single tap because they are leaking either!

[spud]

We've used CV's almost exclusively since 2010 and of the 20,000+ we've installed in that timeframe we have not had a single one break. Hitting the CV too many times with the nylon hammer can cause the ball to pop out but that's been the extent of our issues.

That's impressive to not have even one CV2 spout break out of 20,000. I have put in 18,000 in the last three years and have broke some. In the three years I have probably broke 100 and I don't think thats bad at all. When I buy spouts I always buy 2-300 more then I need just in case. I have always used a framing hammer to put spouts in and do not plan to change. Theres no way you're pulling my spouts out with two hands. It's going to take two horses.:lol: If you're not cracking the tree then giving them a few more hits will not hurt anything. I maintain very high vacuum and do well with my overall GPT every season.

Spud

[ennismaple]

Spud - we use CV's and stubbies not CV2's. We are not yet on high vacuum (that will be in place for next year) so my tune on how hard we drive them will likely change in 12 months time! We use a slotted, curved piece of bar steel to pull the taps and it seems to be gentler on the spout and the tree than a claw hammer.

[sapmaple]

Using CV 1's with stubby and have had no problems with breaking or cracking / Have 9000 in this year . We try to achieve 27 inches of vac and when the tubing is tight there is no issue with using the two piece spout and adapter for getting high vac
My other business is running a paint shop and we paint all kinds of plastic parts and I can tell you there is never perfect parts all the time
extruding plastic has many variables i.e. type of raw materials temperature of extruder weather that day if mold is a little dirty or porosity shows up different places on different batches etc. So different spout manufactures are going to have issues from time to time I think all and all most of our spouts are made correctly and that's when we are happy with the brand we use
I have never had any problem with cv's backing out of the hole in cold weather as some types of plastic is prone to. I also do not want to walk my lines twice first putting on the spout then back through to tap I so all at once

[adk1]

I have both in my woods right now. Have been using cv1 spouts for the past three years. They both have their pluses, but, neither are perfect.

[TheMapleMoose]

Those were the only 3 out of 2000 that we found were cracked. We've been using them since 2010 also and have never had any problems with them other than a bag a few years ago that was brittle, and the stubby cup was splitting.