1st Day - Sap Puller

[vtgaryw]

Had a small run here in northern VT today, and I was able to get my pump hooked up to a line with 15 taps on it. Seemed to be doing good, definitely a lot better flow than I was getting on that line just on gravity. More refinements to come, there will be a 12V power supply in the box with the pump among other things. If it's not cold rain tomorrow I'll check the whole system for leaks.

Gary

[Xvermontx]

Looks good, keep us informed on how it works.

[DaveB]

How does that pump work? It looks like a regular pump and I'm wondering what happens when there isn't liquid to pump. From a price perspective it looks a lot cheaper than a Bosworth.

[maple flats]

Is that a little diaphram pump like those used in travel trailers? Which model? How many GPM is it rated?

[AndrewsofBow]

What kind of pump is that?

[DaveB]

It looks like a ShurFlo 4048-153-A75 based on the markings in the picture. It looks like a regular pump to me which is why I asked about what happens when it runs dry.

http://www.shurflo.com/files/RV-Product-Data-Sheets/4048-High-Flow-Pump/pds-4048-153-A75.pdf

[vtgaryw]

I was going to post more details, but yes, it is a ShurFlo 4048, a 12VDC RV pump. It *is* a diaphram pump, and should be able to run dry. I got it cheap enough, so I'm not too worried. I was thinking about a way to monitor fluid flow and shut it down if it runs dry, but not sure if I'm going to need to worry about that.

We're having a short run here right now, but next run I'll check vacuum up at the beginning of the run and post how it's doing.

Gary

[Jkrist]

I saw this post and had been contemplating myself if this would work. After seeing this, I hooked mine up to 50 taps all on 5/16 line and it works amazing. I was surprised on how much more sap I am getting. And it seems like it's pulling a pretty decent amount of vacuum.

[DaveB]

I was going to post more details, but yes, it is a ShurFlo 4048, a 12VDC RV pump. It *is* a diaphram pump, and should be able to run dry. I got it cheap enough, so I'm not too worried. I was thinking about a way to monitor fluid flow and shut it down if it runs dry, but not sure if I'm going to need to worry about that.

We're having a short run here right now, but next run I'll check vacuum up at the beginning of the run and post how it's doing.

Gary

Somehow I missed the part about it being a diaphragm pump. Even the description on the Website says it's OK to run dry:

http://www.shurflo.com/rv-products/rv-pumps/classic-series-water-pumps/4048-high-flow-pump/default.html

With a price point under $200, that beats that Bosworths. I have an application that I use one of those and I'm wondering if there is another area that I could use one of these.

BTW, How long can it run a 12v battery?

[maple flats]

If that proves to work good, I may try a Shurflo 2088-492-444. That is a 115V park model 3.3 gpm unit. I have about 160 taps I could put in if I had vacuum (1 pump-2 or 3?). In the specs it looks like the 3.3 gpm rating is at open discharge. I wonder how much that would be affected for vacuum use and how much vacuum it might be capable of.

[Jkrist]

I let my pump run all night. Temps got down to 32 and there was ice in the lines, pump was still running fine when I got there. It ran 12 hrs off from a 12v battery rated at 109amp/hour. Pumps says. It's only 4 amps so we'll see if I can get a full 24hrs off from one charge. I'm gonna hook a gauge up later today to see how much vac I'm getting

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I saw this post and had been contemplating myself if this would work. After seeing this, I hooked mine up to 50 taps all on 5/16 line and it works amazing. I was surprised on how much more sap I am getting. And it seems like it's pulling a pretty decent amount of vacuum.
how about a vac gauge on the last tap and then we will know what its pulling for vac? This will take the guessing out of the equation

[BAP]

If it works well, you might try getting a solar powered battery charger to hook up to your battery to keep it charged up. Even if it doesn't charge it all the way it will help extend the run time. You can buy some now for not too much money and they work pretty good.

[wildlifewarrior]

I was wondering if you could quantify how much more sap you think you got from with out and with the puller. I was just wondering roughly. We have 30 taps on gravity mainline and were looking for a way to increase our yield.

Thanks
Mike

[Starting Small]

Did you end up getting a reading on your vacuum guage at the furtherst tap? Curious as to the inches, thanks,
-Dave

[Jkrist]

I didn't get to check the vac today. My local hardware store didn't have a gauge and my maple supplier isn't open on weekends. Hopefully I'll get a chance to stop there tomorrow and get a gauge. The amount of sap that I'm getting is significantly greater. I'm not sure the exact amount. But on gravity I was getting a slow drip, and with the pump I was almost getting a constant stream. My temp here is just warming up and is supposed to back to freezing for the next week, I can't wait to see how good this will work when the weather cooperates.

[vtgaryw]

I didn't get to check the vacuum either. I think the gauge I got (like $ 5.99 on eBay) doesn't work right, it reads 5 in. even when it's not hooked up. I have another one I'll check it with if it ever gets above freezing here again (not likely for a week or so.)

Gary

[Waynehere]

So I have one of these little pumps and was wondering what else you have hooked up to it in your photo? I have about 40 taps all on 5/16 on 2 different segments and would love to draw them to my shack. How long of runs do you have on this pump?

[Jkrist]

I checked vac on my 50 taps today. It was 13" on the longest line. Pump has been working well. I found out not to leave out at night not running. Froze up and had to run hot water on it to get it working. I've been unhooking it as soon as it turns 30 and putting it back out first thing in the morning. When the temps are reasonable at night I let it run non stop. I just make sure the battery won't run out over night. I'm gonna check for leaks and see if I can get vac higher

[Waynehere]

I am getting ready to put mine out tomorrow. I installed a drain valve and have mine mounted so that the in is on top and out at the bottom. I was hoping that I can simply turn it off and drain it for the freezing periods. I am going to try mine with the computer power supply and run electric to it. I also used the computer chassis to mount it in. I will post some pics tomorrow when I have it setup.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

put banjo fittings on inlet side they hold vacuum.

[Jkrist]

I'm running all 5/16 line, about 500 ft of it total. I'm wondering if a dry line of 5/16 to the last tap would help vac. If saps flowing tomorrow I'm gonna go around and check various taps to see if vac is greater.

[DaveB]

I checked vac on my 50 taps today. It was 13" on the longest line. Pump has been working well. I found out not to leave out at night not running. Froze up and had to run hot water on it to get it working. I've been unhooking it as soon as it turns 30 and putting it back out first thing in the morning. When the temps are reasonable at night I let it run non stop. I just make sure the battery won't run out over night. I'm gonna check for leaks and see if I can get vac higher

Today was my first full day of running mine so I guess I'll see what happens tomorrow. I was thinking that it would thaw out naturally but I guess I'll see. I have the pump in a place that makes it hard to take it in each night. What is the worst that could happen? The pump would stop working until the ice thaws, correct? Or should I be concerned?

[Jkrist]

Mine was fine If it stays running during the freeze. It was when I shut it off and it froze it wouldn't start back up. It kept trying to but I could tell it was froze up so I pulled it and thawed it out so I wouldn't damage anything

[Quagmire33]

Is everyone here using the same brand pump or are there different ones. If I remember right the original poster was using a 12v one. Which seems to be cheaper than a 115v but how are you all powering the 12v for the Long periods of time they are running. I have 20 taps on 5/16 line and would love to try this out. Where would I be able to find a pump? Been looking on line at what I think are comparable pumps but I'd hate to get one that doesn't pull hardly any vacuum. 13" sounds like a lot for a diaphragm pump but that is only from what I read, I claim ignorance on all this since it's all new to me. Love this fourm. Have gotten all kinds of great advise since I joined last week.

[vtgaryw]

Getting a little run today, so I went up to the far end and checked the vacuum. Not sure how good my $ 5.99 eBay gauge is, but it was reading 16 in. That's after I found and fixed a couple of leaks. Fixed those leaks and boy is it flowing into the tank pretty well now, and not all of the trees are running yet. Unfortunately, today looks like it's about it, this coming Saturday is the only day in the 10 day forecast above freezing, and that's only showing a high of 38. Rats.

Gary

[Waynehere]

I installed my pump the other day and was really impressed. Even found a couple of plugs in the lines that we hadn't seen before. While my other tanks all did about the same, 2-3", the tank with vacuum was half full. I just bought another one on Amazon and will hook it up to another tank that has ele. close enough to run. MIght have to look at an RO if I get too carried away here. Sucks to be me. (get it? Sucks) :lol:

[bowhunter]

I checked vac on my 50 taps today. It was 13" on the longest line. !3 inches is pretty impressive. I have a Shurflo park model which runs on 115v. I use it to move sap up to my head tank for my RO. According to the spec sheet it will lift 12 feet which is about 11 inches of Hg vacuum. I'll have to get a vacuum gauge and see how much vacuum mine will create.

[Clinkis]

I have been so fascinated by this topic that last night I ordered a pump and going to give it a try. What do you think the maximum number of taps you could put on a system like this? I have 2 little pipelines with about 25 taps each. Was wondering if one pump would work for both?

[DaveB]

I have been so fascinated by this topic that last night I ordered a pump and going to give it a try. What do you think the maximum number of taps you could put on a system like this? I have 2 little pipelines with about 25 taps each. Was wondering if one pump would work for both?

I have the 115V model and have about 80 taps connected to it and it seems to do fine. I haven't tried reading the vacuum yet as I don't have a gauge. The model I have has nice threaded 1/2" connectors which made the connection pretty easy for me and I was able to get parts at a local home improvement store.

[Clinkis]

That's good to here. So fifty taps on one pump shouldn't be a problem. Do your pipelines already have a natural slope or does it pull up hill at all? If this works well for me I have a lot of possibilities to upgrade other sections of taps to pipelines in areas where slope has been an issue for gravity

[Quagmire33]

I have been so fascinated by this topic that last night I ordered a pump and going to give it a try. What do you think the maximum number of taps you could put on a system like this? I have 2 little pipelines with about 25 taps each. Was wondering if one pump would work for both?

I with you Clinkis, I ordered a pro-pump from amazon. I can't wait till the weather warms up so I can plug it in. Hoping for the best. Getting about 13"hg at the pump with a dry run. I got two vacuum gauges, one for the end of the line and one for the start of the line.

[DaveB]

That's good to here. So fifty taps on one pump shouldn't be a problem. Do your pipelines already have a natural slope or does it pull up hill at all? If this works well for me I have a lot of possibilities to upgrade other sections of taps to pipelines in areas where slope has been an issue for gravity

My lines all run downhill but I could see this working in more level areas as the suction would draw it even if it has a very slight slope. I don't know how it would do with a lift but if it would lose about 1" of vacuum for every 12" of lift. This is my first year trying it out based on other experiences and it being a lot cheaper than the Bosworths. I had a nice area of tubing at another location and I thought this was a perfect place to try and enhance sap collection. If it works well, I have another area that I might try one as well in an attempt at getting all my lines on vacuum.

[Clinkis]

I with you Clinkis, I ordered a pro-pump from amazon. I can't wait till the weather warms up so I can plug it in. Hoping for the best. Getting about 13"hg at the pump with a dry run. I got two vacuum gauges, one for the end of the line and one for the start of the line.

What model of pump did you get? I'm in Canada so more limited on suppliers. I can buy Sureflo pumps here but can't seem to find the models that everyone else is using. These are the Sureflo pumps my local supplier has. Can anyone recommend which one would work best?

http://www.cwwltd.com/categoryfd/shurflo-delivery-pumps/378

I also found this pump on our classifieds. Would it work?

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-RVs-campers-trailers-parts-accessories-Shurflo-12-volt-water-pumps-W0QQAdIdZ572405708

I ordered this one the other night but started having 2nd thoughts so cancelled order.

http://www.cwwltd.com/product_files/515_8000-443-236.pdf

Thanks again to everyone for the great info!

[DaveB]

What model of pump did you get? I'm in Canada so more limited on suppliers. I can buy Sureflo pumps here but can't seem to find the models that everyone else is using. These are the Sureflo pumps my local supplier has. Can anyone recommend which one would work best?

I can only speak for what I have. I have the 2088 model and it's available as 12v or 115v. I'm using the 115v model because I have access to power and the fact that the specs seemed as good as the other models but I think they all generally do the same thing and according to ShurFlo's Website (http://www.shurflo.com/rv-products/rv-pumps/classic-series-water-pumps/shurflo-classic-pump/default.html), are diaphragm pumps that can run dry without issues.

[Quagmire33]

9184

Not sure what the model number is. Don't have the info with me. But I attached a pic of the pump. Haven't tried it yet but I'm hopeful it'll do well.

[bowhunter]

Here's a link to the Shurflo park model which will do 12 feet of lift. The pump you have from Duda Energy will only do about 3.5 feet of lift. That may be enough for your application, but I think the Shurflo will perform a little better. Both pumps cost about the same. The Shurflo only has a capacity of 3.3 GPM at no discharge pressure. http://www.thepumpforce.com/index.php?p=detail&pid=13&cat_id=1 The ideal way to use this pump would be to locate it at the low point in your collection system and use the discharge pressure to pump into the sugar house.

[Quagmire33]

Your right, I probably should have bought the shur-flo. Was looking at prices and I never found the shur-flo for the $100 price that you linked to. I assume it has 1/2" ports just like mine so it's about 4x stronger in vacuum capacity. But I figure at 5/16" line it should lift almost 9'. If in fact that's how fluid dynamics work. I did put a gague on it and I'm getting about 12.5 - 13" of vacuum, don't know if it'll keep that consistent with any leaks or when the trees are running. I can't wait for this **** weather to break so I can plug it in and actually try it.

[bowhunter]

In any case what you guys are doing is really cool. A good low cost sap sucker without paying >$500 for a pump and so much simpler and cheaper than a vacuum system. Based on the research posted on this site you should be able to double sap production if you can achieve 10 inch of Hg....that's a huge improvement. I may try this next year. My big improvement this year was the RO.

[Quagmire33]

I was all excited to put my pump on today when I got home from work, go out to the shack and the lines were still frozen solid. Did a little trial run with some water to rinse out the pump and was showing 20" while it was pumping. Put it on the frozen sap line and with the line frozen solid it was reading 14 ish inches. Waiting for the lines to thaw is worse than waiting for Christmas morning to come.

[Clinkis]

Here's a link to the Shurflo park model which will do 12 feet of lift. The pump you have from Duda Energy will only do about 3.5 feet of lift. That may be enough for your application, but I think the Shurflo will perform a little better. Both pumps cost about the same. The Shurflo only has a capacity of 3.3 GPM at no discharge pressure. http://www.thepumpforce.com/index.php?p=detail&pid=13&cat_id=1 The ideal way to use this pump would be to locate it at the low point in your collection system and use the discharge pressure to pump into the sugar house.

I found the 12V version of this pump, which is what I wanted, from my local supplier for $80 so I've order it. Sounds like this is the best pump for what I'm looking for. Aside from the obvious plumbing connections and power source, what else do I need? I've noticed filters in some of the photos?

[Waynehere]

I have this pump coming to add to my 12v already in production.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001FAA5Y/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

With any luck it will be here tomorrow and get it online before our next freeze coming.

[BRL]

Wayne these pumps are awesome! I hooked up my 4048 on Saturday and my line went from drip...drip...drip to a steady stream coming in. I am very impressed.

[Waynehere]

Yep. Just got my 2nd one today. Will get it all rigged up tonight for another 35 tap run I have. So nice to think like the big guys with real vac for a change.... :)

[sweetwater sugar shack]

Are u guys just hooking your main line directly to pump then line to collection tank would like to try this

[harrison6jd]

what kind of volume do you expect from a 35 tap run with the pump as opposed to natural gravity? this post has sparked my interest.

[markct]

Anyone put a gauge on the line to see what they were getting for vac?

[CampHamp]

I have 150 taps and the 12V ShurFlo 4048. I have a vac meter installed on my mainline. I had 24" of vac on Saturday (the pump is primed and drawing best when wet - you can hear it "chewing") but get only 14" before it starts flowing.

I attached my setup in case you didn't see the other thread.

[Quagmire33]

9255after letting the pump run all day It went from 13" in the morning to about 20" in the evening. I have my gauge teed into the line in the shack, then the line runs into the pump and the pump dumps through 2' of line into a 55 gallon drum. 9256

[Snowy Pass Maple]

This is a really cool thread. I'm interested in thinking through how to optimize the design for any given tubing system - unless someone has sorted it all out, I could reach out to a contact at Aquatec to see what they think on these questions.

Aquatec and probably other manufacturers offer a ton of different pump head designs with different balance points between flowrate/output pressure/current draw. I think our first concern is maximum vaccum - which most seem to feel ties to the priming lift spec - followed by enough volume capacity to move any liquid and air out of the line - and for woods applications, doing this with a bare minimum of power draw. Some of the better pumps pull in the range of 10-13 feet of water. These tend to also correspond to larger pumpheads with higher volume/current ratings. In the 5800 series, a 5853 or 5854. These draw around 40-50 watts and move 1.2 GPM of water. Or in a 5533 series, you could get 3.5 GPM with 11 feet of lift but you'd then draw 80-90 watts. A 5543 would step up to 13 feet lift, almost 5 GPM, but 100W.

All those prime values are water - and the ShurFlo 4048 is only rated for 6 feet of water and a poster above is showing 20 inches of vac. Which would suggest that something priming 10 feet would be more than enough if this was scaling.

The current draws also scale rapidly with outlet pressure but I'm guessing that you'd never exceed the load of running with ~14.7 psi pressure (full vacuum).

Since many are looking to run these on batteries in the woods, it seems the question is to get the series of pump with maximum inlet priming lift to get lower vacuum levels, while getting some minimum necessary flowrate spec met to keep up with flow and leaks to conserve power. On a 50 tap setup, I can't imagine you ever flow more than 0.3 GPM which pretty much any of these do and more. But I think the more you had beyond that would help you pull air to make up for leaks and hold vacuum.

Does this logic make sense or is there a better way to look at it, something I'm missing? In particular, does water priming lift predict maximum vacuum potential on a tight system?

There are just so many models out there that I think it would be great to figure out the best way to size these to have the best chance to run them for extended periods on a deep cycle battery. The DC models also have the advantage of just slowing down as the battery dies, and longer brush life. I think it would take a very large solar panel that would cost many times the pump to make up the power draws, but it would certainly be a nice photo op :-)

[CampHamp]

I agree that the more people experimenting with this, the better off we'll all be!


In particular, does water priming lift predict maximum vacuum potential on a tight system?

I thought this was the case. When there's no sap running, I still think the answer is "yes". However, as soon as you trickle in some liquid then the inlet suction increases well beyond this initial vacuum rating. I set my inlet at a gradual downward slope so that I get a constant trickle, otherwise I find that it will gulp sap and then stall on an air gap. I see that Quagmire uses 5/16" right to his inlet, so he probably is getting a constant sap feed without the bulk "start/stop" effect that I've had to address.

The best sap sucker will be the one that sucks best when "partially primed" (which may very well be the same ones with max head lift, but maybe not).

A thought to consider for maximum power efficiency, might be to install a "cycle relay" (12V programmable ones are about $10 - I have one on the way to play with) that will run the pump for XX minutes then stops for YYY then start again. Especially if you have mainline tube to act as a reservoir before the inlet. Pressure holds pretty long in a tight system even with the pump off. I drop about 1" every 3 minutes with 150 tight taps. I learned this because I close my mainline with a valve to hold pressure when I transfer the sap to the shack and the vac stays fairly high even as my mainline backs way up for the 15 minutes it takes to transfer.

[The dairy farmer]

do u have a releaser or are u just running it into a sealed tank or what curious???

[Snowy Pass Maple]

I agree that the more people experimenting with this, the better off we'll all be!



Count me in - I do happen to have a couple spare aquatec pumps laying around with some deep cycle batteries... but just not sure if I can bite this off with all the other expansion we've done this season! The relay idea is great as it doesn't cost that much more to size a much larger pump and then tune it, ideally with an adjustable cycle time to get the performance needed.

How fast do you get that lost inch of vacuum back when you turn it on again? And roughly how much mainline (3/4?) and lateral pipe do you think you have?

I have a 12V DDP 550 series that died on me the other night - if it's easily fixed, then I may be able to try this out on a 5/16 line that has about 20 taps on it. It's quite a hike to make with deep cycle batteries, so this is why I'm thinking a lot about power management.

[CampHamp]

do u have a releaser or are u just running it into a sealed tank or what curious???
The pump intake attaches to the end of your gravity tubing and pumps out into a collection tank. No releaser and the tank is not air-tight.


How fast do you get that lost inch of vacuum back when you turn it on again?
After 15 min off, I guess it only needs about 2-4 minutes on to be back up to high vac since it's working with pure liquid and draws hard. I'll pay close attention next time to get better numbers.


And roughly how much mainline (3/4?) and lateral pipe do you think you have?
I have two 3/4" mainlines coming into a "Y" fitting - one section is about 300' and the other is only 150'. I run 18 very long laterals uphill at about an average of 250' with an even mix of 5/16 and 3/16. Since I have the 3/16, my case will be different than a pure 5/16 lot.

[Quagmire33]

I see that Quagmire uses 5/16" right to his inlet, so he probably is getting a constant sap feed without the bulk "start/stop" effect that I've had to address.


I do get the start stop that your talking about. It maybe takes 2 minutes of it sucking before it pulls enough sap to actually "pump" the liquid. Then it pumps for a minute or so and goes back to sucking. Seems to work pretty good though. Haven't noticed any air lock symptoms yet. I only have 20 taps on the 5/16 line. I imagine if I had 50 or more it would do more pumping than sucking. I've only run the pump one day because of this crazy weather we've been having. But on the one day I pulled about 15 gallons from 20 taps in less than prime trees. Reds and silvers in the woods, not big canopies because they are fighting for sun from all the other trees around. Ordinarily I would only expect to see maybe 5 gallons on just gravity.

[Waynehere]

I re-purposed some old computer towers I had laying around. One pump was DC, so I used the power supply already in the old tower and rigged it to run the 12v DC side. So far running great and I have lots of these power supplies laying around in case it fails on me. That is in the white tower. The black tower has an AC pump I just got. I cover them both up with some cut-off plastic barrels that we can't use any more for bulk syrup and had to switch to SS.
926092619262

[Snowy Pass Maple]

The comments regarding getting better vacuum when wet suggest that the internal check valve seals better when wet - would it make sense to have the pump setup as a sump with a discharge line going up at the outlet side, maybe with a check valve, so that the pump stays wet?

I'm also wondering if it would make sense to have a liquid sensing switch to cycle the pump when sap on the feed side reaches a certain level. One concern here would be to not over cycle too much as each startup would have a current surge.

[CampHamp]

I'm also wondering if it would make sense to have a liquid sensing switch to cycle the pump when sap on the feed side reaches a certain level.
For your amusement... Before I attached my battery charger and was still trying to conserve electricity, I actually did something like this. When the sap backed up the main line would sag about an inch. So, I setup the pump wire to make contact only when the line sagged by hanging one exposed wire end over the tube and the other exposed wire packed in the snow. It "worked" but would only make very brief contact for about 2 secs before the tube would spring up. Also, the contact was unreliable and failed often. If I could have made the link a bit more "sticky" then I would have used it (I was thinking of wrapping a magnet, but got the charger rigged up instead). A timer-delayed OFF relay switch probably would be the proper solution (but less interesting).

[BRL]

Here is a pic of my setup and a short video.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k258/BrianL_01/20140315_143946.jpg

https://youtu.be/pMdQbKyzGRA

[markct]

I re-purposed some old computer towers I had laying around. One pump was DC, so I used the power supply already in the old tower and rigged it to run the 12v DC side. So far running great and I have lots of these power supplies laying around in case it fails on me. That is in the white tower. The black tower has an AC pump I just got. I cover them both up with some cut-off plastic barrels that we can't use any more for bulk syrup and had to switch to SS.
926092619262
Just curious where you sell bulk that wont take plastic anymore? Most of my bulk to sell goes in plastic as i wouldnt cry as much if they lose them! Try not to let stainless leave the farm!

[Waynehere]

Just curious where you sell bulk that wont take plastic anymore? Most of my bulk to sell goes in plastic as i wouldn't cry as much if they lose them! Try not to let stainless leave the farm!

I sell to a large supplier close to me, who then transports it to Bascoms I believe. Bascoms won't take anything other then SS containers now. The first year they are doing it. Believe me, I had to make a little investment in some SS barrels that we weren't happy about. I hear they are pretty good with tracking serials to be sure you get your barrel back. Will have to find out I guess...

[jmayerl]

I sell to a large supplier close to me, who then transports it to Bascoms I believe. Bascoms won't take anything other then SS containers now. The first year they are doing it. Believe me, I had to make a little investment in some SS barrels that we weren't happy about. I hear they are pretty good with tracking serials to be sure you get your barrel back. Will have to find out I guess...
Straight quote from bascoms webpage on what they accept for drums, you don't need stainless to sell to them just acceptable food grade.
Continuing with our current practice, only food grade drums of maple syrup will be accepted. Stainless steel, food grade plastic, and food grade epoxy lined are good examples of what will be accepted. (No syrup transferred from tin milk cans or any other unacceptable drums will be accepted.)

[CampHamp]

BRL,

That looks like a nice, sturdy setup. Great work!

I've just started using a thermostat for automatic startup/shutdown. It would be an easy add-on for you, if you're interested.

I got this $7 one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-Heat-Cool-Temp-Thermostat-Temperature-Control-Switch-Thermometer-50-110-C-/310881576239) and there is one with housing here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-12V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-40-f-120-f-w-Sensor-Control-/171153428067) for $12. I got the cheaper one because I see it has a 20A switch (though it is only rated for 10A). Also, saw one for $20 if you want Fahrenheit.

[PACMAN]

Well, I Got my Guzzler yesterday And Im getting it ready tonight so I can put it in tomorrow. Cant wait to turn it on tomorrow to see how it does? Some say any vac is beter than none. We will see.

[workinprogress]

Is anyone concerned about the duty cycle of these pumps? The Sturflo page list model 2088 with an "Intermittent Duty" motor.

[vtgaryw]

I thought about adding a thermostat to my setup. What are you picking for a setpoint to shut the pump down? It's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it, because with the sap puller you can still get sap flowing when it drops below freezing, but then at some point the sap in the lines starts to freeze.

Gary


BRL,

That looks like a nice, sturdy setup. Great work!

I've just started using a thermostat for automatic startup/shutdown. It would be an easy add-on for you, if you're interested.

I got this $7 one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-Heat-Cool-Temp-Thermostat-Temperature-Control-Switch-Thermometer-50-110-C-/310881576239) and there is one with housing here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-12V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-40-f-120-f-w-Sensor-Control-/171153428067) for $12. I got the cheaper one because I see it has a 20A switch (though it is only rated for 10A). Also, saw one for $20 if you want Fahrenheit.

[DaveB]

Is anyone concerned about the duty cycle of these pumps? The Sturflo page list model 2088 with an "Intermittent Duty" motor.

This has been my second week with a 120v model running. I'm not too concerned as I've been getting about 2.6 gallons per tap with the pump and about 1.6 gallons per tap without it. The extra sap production has paid for the $80 that I paid for the pump. My unit is well ventilated so I don't think it over heats too much which can be one limiting factor.

[Yellzee]

This is a great set up, Question about it freezing. Are you heating the box somehow or taking it Inside Every night/day it dips below freezing? Or maybe freezing it won't kil it?

[DaveB]

This is a great set up, Question about it freezing. Are you heating the box somehow or taking it Inside Every night/day it dips below freezing? Or maybe freezing it won't kil it?

I can't speak for others but I have been leaving mine out without any issues. I typically wait for temps to be above freezing to start it but we've had some mornings near zero and I haven't had any issues.

I just uploaded a video showing the flow here on an area with about 40 taps and temps in the 30s today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlbtEVDQhQc

The video is still processing as I link to it so hopefully it's ready....

[Waynehere]

Mine was fine If it stays running during the freeze. It was when I shut it off and it froze it wouldn't start back up. It kept trying to but I could tell it was froze up so I pulled it and thawed it out so I wouldn't damage anything

I bring mine in if temps heading much below freezing. Jkrist here had a problem with his. Not sure if the pump was damaged though. Mine aren't too far from me.

[Jkrist]

I bring mine in if temps heading much below freezing. Jkrist here had a problem with his. Not sure if the pump was damaged though. Mine aren't too far from me.

I had no damage with mine I just pushed warm water in it to get it thawed. It didn't hurt it a bit.

[Jkrist]

I've left mine run for 24 hrs straight and had no problems of over heating or anything. I just have it strapped to the side of my holding tank. And it has been holding 12" of vac

[Snowy Pass Maple]

Is anyone concerned about the duty cycle of these pumps? The Sturflo page list model 2088 with an "Intermittent Duty" motor.

On Aquatec's spec sheets, for any given pump, they list a heat rise curve that determines whether or not the pump can run continuously. They typically spec the pump to be OK for continuous use up to 150 F. The rate at which it approaches 150 F depends on the current draw, which depends largely on the discharge pressure and to a lesser degree the pump head volume and design. On some pumps, there is no operating condition that would ever cause overheating before a bypass valve kicks in - some up to 80 psi, while on others, this is a very real concern at pressures well below 50 psi, and not all have an internal bypass.

It's not clear to me how much a high priming lift impacts the current draw, but I'd think it would be no more than the equivalent pressure on the discharge side - and those kinds of pressures are relatively low compared to what these pumps are potentially capable of.

Overall, I suspect these are not terribly demanding applications as long as the pump head can move freely and there is no discharge load, but with an ice up on the discharge and the pump running, I think there would be serious risk of overheating it if there wasn't an internal bypass to relieve the pressure, or a pressure switch that shuts the pump off.

[BRL]

(That looks like a nice, sturdy setup. Great work!
I've just started using a thermostat for automatic startup/shutdown. It would be an easy add-on for you, if you're interested.
I got this $7 one and there is one with housing here for $12. I got the cheaper one because I see it has a 20A switch (though it is only rated for 10A). Also, saw one for $20 if you want Fahrenheit.)

Thanks Camp! It's amazing what these little pumps will do.

(This is a great set up, Question about it freezing. Are you heating the box somehow or taking it Inside Every night/day it dips below freezing? Or maybe freezing it won't kill it?)

I have a 40 watt light bulb I put in the box at night. In my picture the black mat under the pump is a heat mat for starting seeds. I had that in there for the first couple of nights and nothing froze, I put the light bulb in there just to make sure.

[CampHamp]

I thought about adding a thermostat to my setup. What are you picking for a setpoint to shut the pump down? It's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it, because with the sap puller you can still get sap flowing when it drops below freezing, but then at some point the sap in the lines starts to freeze.

Gary

I've just started playing with my thermostat only through a few runs, so no expert here. I believe that the best way is to let the pump run until the lines are frozen because you cannot pull ice into the diaphragm through the ice filter. Also, when it freezes up, there is still plenty of air seeping through the ice and allows the pump to clear itself of sap.

I've watched mine freeze like this a few nights now. Last night it froze at -2 C after 3 hours below freezing. I'm starting off safe by watching it manually still, but think that -3 C (26F) will be good.

I think 1C (34F) is a good ON temp. Ice cannot get in at this point anyway and sometimes a slow thaw will melt lines at lower temps.

[vtgaryw]

Thanks, gives me a starting point. Not sure I'll get one of those thermostats from China in time to use it anymore this year.

On the other hand, it's not like the season has really started here in northern VT anyways...

Just a few drips from a few trees today, but I did check the vacuum using my Shurflo 4048, I read 19in today about 100 feet and 15 taps away from the pump! Now if there was only some sap flowing...

Gary


I've just started playing with my thermostat only through a few runs, so no expert here. I believe that the best way is to let the pump run until the lines are frozen because you cannot pull ice into the diaphragm through the ice filter. Also, when it freezes up, there is still plenty of air seeping through the ice and allows the pump to clear itself of sap.

I've watched mine freeze like this a few nights now. Last night it froze at -2 C after 3 hours below freezing. I'm starting off safe by watching it manually still, but think that -3 C (26F) will be good.

I think 1C (34F) is a good ON temp. Ice cannot get in at this point anyway and sometimes a slow thaw will melt lines at lower temps.

[sweetwater sugar shack]

I just installed one of these pumps all I can say is wow wish I have done this year's ago thanks for all the help

[huntingken111]

I think I have read most of this thread now but have one question fpr those running remote spots. Do you have extra car battery with you and then swap fresh and old out . Or did some of you try solar charger and found that it worked.

[wildlifewarrior]

We are using a deep cell marine battery, we have run this for 36+\- hours with no problem.
What size lines are you guys using? We have a 1 inch for 30 taps about 150 feet of line. There is constantly about an eighth inch of sap on the bottom of the line. The pump is set up on its side to allow draining at night. This causes a build up of sap in front of the inlet the way it is angled when this fills with enough sap it gets pulled and drained. What do you see as the ideal line size for these pumps? I was thinking more like half inch. Thoughts?

[CampHamp]

I would stick to the manufacturer's guidelines for mainline sizing or a just a tad bigger if you run any flat sections. Here's what Leader says:

1/2" Diameter will handle the volume of maple sap from up to 50 taps
3/4" Diameter will handle the volume of maple sap from up to 250 taps
1" Diameter will handle the volume of maple sap from up to 500 taps
1-1/4" Diameter will handle the volume of maple sap from up to 1000 taps
1-1/2" Diameter will handle the volume of maple sap from up to 2000 taps
* These ratings may vary slightly based on installation and do not apply to the wet line of a wet/dry line vacuum tubing system. Contact a local dealer/distributor, or us directly to discuss your unique maple sugar woods.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

one diagraphm DOWN THIS SEASON

[KevinS]

If you want to move the sap uphill to the shack. You might want to consider dumping the discharge of the pump you are sucking with into a barrel and then using a second to pump it up to the shack. The power used to push "up" is going to reduce how much suck you have.

[harrison6jd]

with all the chatter about pumps, i thought i should at least try. i ended up with a shurflo 2088. 3.5 gallons per minute. i waited for 2 similar days of weather(38-42 degrees). 100 taps on 2 different lines all on 5/16 tubing. day 1 was just on gravity and i collected about 50 gallons. not a gusher day but not bad either. day 2 i hooked the 2 lines together with a 'T' and then to the pump.in 6 hours i had over 100 gallons. due to time restraints ,i didnt find out how long the battery lasted. i use clear check valve spots and could see the sap being pulled outat a much higher rate than with gravity. is this setup the best for everybody,maybe not. but it is productive in my situation. i was very happy with the results and plan on using the pump often. thanks for everybodys input on the subject, all useful information.

[sweetwater sugar shack]

Where did u purchase the thermostat?

[CampHamp]

I put the link where I bought mine down in post #63. It's from China and took a week to arrive (which is better than most things coming from there). You can search EBay with "12V thermostat" to see other options and just make sure you get the temp range that you need. If I were to do it again, I'd probably try the $12 type because this one seems fragile even though it is working fine. Mine came with Chinese instructions so I attached the English instruction with my own notes at the bottom, in case anyone gets the same unit.

9390

[Snowy Pass Maple]

I think I have read most of this thread now but have one question fpr those running remote spots. Do you have extra car battery with you and then swap fresh and old out . Or did some of you try solar charger and found that it worked.

The 12V pumps should have current ratings in amps. The batteries have amp-hour ratings - so to first order, if you know how many amps you'll use, you can estimate the life of any given deep cycle battery by dividing the current into the total amp-hours. Multiple days is certainly possible. As voltage drops, the pump will just slow down a bit. This is where the size of the pump is going to be critical in determining the battery life, and why I want to figure out how to balance this out. The earlier suggestion on an interval timer is another good way to manage this. Maybe next step would be a pressure-based switch. The last inch of vacuum could cost a lot more energy than it's worth in this application.

The harder part is knowing exactly how many amps you'll draw because it'll depend on the load on the pump - making sure it doesn't get stuck running against ice and things that will make it work harder will help.

As for the solar unit - then you have to figure out how many watts you need. If you take a deep cycle that is 200 amp-hours, that's roughly 2400 watt-hours of energy. (12V*200 amp-hours) So a $60 solar charger that gives you 15 watts will take 160 hours to recharge - that's a lot of sun. And in reality, I don't think you get 15 watts actually being stored in the battery due to conversion losses... net is you'd need a really pricey solar cell to make this have any meaningful impact. My guess is that it would probably be cheaper to buy a bank of deep cycles that could run the whole season.

I'm going to do this next season and will just plan on swapping them and charging at the house. And following some good suggestions earlier, figure out how to stretch them out as much as possible with things like interval timers, thermostat controllers, etc.

By the way, a good to score cheaper deep cycles is to search online coupons for advance auto - I usually find $40 off $100 or $30 off $90 which gets you the biggest one they make for $60-$70.

[lakeview maple]

I have a 12 volt Sap Guzzler by Bosworth , I run a middle of the road sears diehard deep cycle and I get all of 12 hours plus out of it. I have it plumbed with quick connects and when the sugarbush starts to thaw out I will hook it up . It takes 5 minutes with the quick connects and you wouldn't want it hooked up when everything is frozen anyways. Things normally don't get running until at least 9 am on an average day and Ill let it run until after dark as long as the temp holds. When I see the temp go down I pull it and put a straight gravity line in its place. Ive been getting 20 inches of vacuum on this system .Hope this helps,Al

[CampHamp]

The 4048 ShurFlo draws 2 AMP's while sap sucking because my battery charger stays set to 2 AMPs and the battery doesn't seem to lose any voltage while running. So, I think solar would be viable for a small pump like this.

If we cycle 1/2 of the flow time then you'd draw 1 AMP on average or 12 WATTs. You would be banking electricity on any sunny day with a 45W kit (Harbor Freight for about $150, for example). We'd want our battery to run through a couple cloudy days (35 Amp-Hours, for example).

To be sure you didn't lose sap, I think I would want a solenoid valve to be opened by default with gravity feed and only when the temps were high and the battery voltage was adequate would it shut for pump operation. I see 1" 12v valves on EBay for $15, so wonder if that could work if I blocked upstream ice.

I decided to just draw it...

9397

The way I drew it, if the low voltage relay stopped the pump then sap could flow into the diaphragm and then freeze -- not good. Maybe if the pump inlet tube ran higher than the mainline (have it jog upwards a few inches after the "Y" fitting) it would force all sap to the opened valve. It would be fun trying to build it. Might need to find some more remote trees for an excuse...

[Waynehere]

I like it... I have some remote trees if you want to play???? :)

[maple flats]

If you're running off battery(s), never run them below 50% charge. Lower that that on flooded lead acid (FLA) will shorten their life expectancy. I believe gel and wetted glass mat can be discharged further, but check on that to verify. On a FLA battery, going below 50% causes the acid to begin depositing sulfates on the plates. Once deposited, no amount of charging can remove it. This is what kills a FLA battery. As long as you stay above the 50% and recharge soon enough, there will no sulfation on the plates. Here's a link I use on my solar battery back up system. http://www.trojanbattery.com/multimedia/#TrojanTips

[Clinkis]

If you're running off battery(s), never run them below 50% charge. Lower that that on flooded lead acid (FLA) will shorten their life expectancy. I believe gel and wetted glass mat can be discharged further, but check on that to verify. On a FLA battery, going below 50% causes the acid to begin depositing sulfates on the plates. Once deposited, no amount of charging can remove it. This is what kills a FLA battery. As long as you stay above the 50% and recharge soon enough, there will no sulfation on the plates. Here's a link I use on my solar battery back up system. http://www.trojanbattery.com/multimedia/#TrojanTips

As long as you are using deep cycle batteries this should not be as big an issue. That is what they are designed for and what would make the most sense to use in this application IMHO.

[Snowy Pass Maple]

The 4048 ShurFlo draws 2 AMP's while sap sucking because my battery charger stays set to 2 AMPs and the battery doesn't seem to lose any voltage while running. So, I think solar would be viable for a small pump like this.

If we cycle 1/2 of the flow time then you'd draw 1 AMP on average or 12 WATTs. You would be banking electricity on any sunny day with a 45W kit (Harbor Freight for about $150, for example). We'd want our battery to run through a couple cloudy days (35 Amp-Hours, for example).

To be sure you didn't lose sap, I think I would want a solenoid valve to be opened by default with gravity feed and only when the temps were high and the battery voltage was adequate would it shut for pump operation. I see 1" 12v valves on EBay for $15, so wonder if that could work if I blocked upstream ice.

I decided to just draw it...

9397

The way I drew it, if the low voltage relay stopped the pump then sap could flow into the diaphragm and then freeze -- not good. Maybe if the pump inlet tube ran higher than the mainline (have it jog upwards a few inches after the "Y" fitting) it would force all sap to the opened valve. It would be fun trying to build it. Might need to find some more remote trees for an excuse...

Here is a spec sheet on a 4048:

http://www.shurflo.com/files/RV-Product-Data-Sheets/4048-High-Flow-Pump/pds-4048-153-A75.pdf

Looks like absolute minimum is 2.8 amps; rising quickly if there is any head to pump against - and I would assume there has to be some additional current load on it when pulling vacuum. It may be that the charger is leaking more than 2 amps, or the difference is not enough to be seen over the time run? It would be great to actually measure this load - if someone had a kill-a-watt and transformer, you could estimate the increase in load going from fully open to closed vacuum on one side. You'd just have to make sure it's not really creeping up a lot higher.

I believe you'd also have to make sure that the panels could be located with a good unobstructed view - my understanding is that even a tree branch casting a shadow on a small part of it can kill the output of the array. So that 45W probably assumed perfect installation. You'd also have to account for the fact that not all 45 watts when generating will end up stored in the battery due to conversion losses. And be willing to buy the more expensive solar panel.

Still, I like the idea and could see trying it if I could be convinced it would be cost effective. I have a couple locations that I'd love to do something like this, as they are hard to get to with a vehicle, and hauling in a battery isn't trivial. But they also have lots of trees that would mean running 200 feet of wire to get a clear panel view. Then there's the marketing/tour value... perhaps that tips the scale :-)

On the good side, you can probably find 100 amp-hr battery for $60 - so that gives you a lot more buffer to work with in this design - and then more ability to catch up on non-running days. In any case, I'd definitely have a second 100 amp-hr charged and ready to go if needed.

[CampHamp]

Looks like absolute minimum is 2.8 amps; rising quickly if there is any head to pump against - and I would assume there has to be some additional current load on it when pulling vacuum. It may be that the charger is leaking more than 2 amps, or the difference is not enough to be seen over the time run? It would be great to actually measure this load - if someone had a kill-a-watt and transformer, you could estimate the increase in load going from fully open to closed vacuum on one side. You'd just have to make sure it's not really creeping up a lot higher.

Yep. Scratching my head. Maybe since I'm not pushing 100% liquid through it draws less (even with the inlet suction) or it's my charger is running more than 2 AMPs, like you say. I should be able to put a multi-meter inline and get a real measurement for us soon enough. Maybe some video of weekend collection while I'm up there.

It would be interesting if someone else would try to cycle their pump by hand a few times to see how other setups hold vac. I'm drawing 24" in a good flow and it will stay above 20" even 15 minutes later with pump off. I don't have my cycle relay doohickey yet, but hope to test it if it arrives before we're all done for the season.

That solenoid valve might not only be a good way to switch to gravity, but also may be a good way to protect the pump's diaphragm by blocking the line right before the pump at shut-down. That'll be next year's test equipment for me.

Good points about the batteries and the space needed for good solar. Some panels allow for shadows (micro-controllers or something like that - ? - we priced these out for our house), but the Harbor Freight deal probably would need full exposure. A small wind turbine might offer an alternative...

Also, I currently need to swap-out the inlet/outlet tube when I use the vac pump to transfer the sap up to the shack. Next season I will try to have everything switchable with valves, so I can switch between 3 configs using the same pump for transfer and vacuum or just be on gravity if there's a long break between runs or the pump fails. It looks like it will work on paper and might be valuable for people who also want to use the same pump for transfer & vac.

[CampHamp]

With little to no sap and 10" of inlet vacuum, the 4048 seems to draw 1.5 AMP. I shot a short video of my setup and the measurement as well. I'll post a reading when the sap flows (probably tomorrow)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T-HJkWdhIw

[vtgaryw]

I've been running my Shurflo 4048 off the 2 amp setting on a battery charger (although, it *does* appear to draw more when I crank the setting up to 10A - I'll have to go up the hill and check the effect on the vacuum.)

I bought a cheap 12V, 2A power supply off of eBay (old Micronta), and thought I'd mount it in the box with the pump. Unfortunately, the 4048 seems to draw just enough to kick off the internal breaker on the supply. I'll have to scrounge around for an old PC power supply like someone else in here used.

Gary

[wnybassman]

So this looks like something I might play around with next year. I will have power at my tank location so I will likely just get a 115v unit. I will also try to connect it whereby I can disconnect it during cold spells/nights. What are some of the ways you guys are making this removable, yet maintaining a tubing connection in case sap starts running before being able to get the unit hooked back up again?

[donniet22]

All I did was build a little plywood box around it, and painted it black, I wait until the sap is dripping out of the outlet and then fire it up, I have not had a problem yet. I have kept it out throughout all this cold weather.

[wnybassman]

All I did was build a little plywood box around it, and painted it black, I wait until the sap is dripping out of the outlet and then fire it up, I have not had a problem yet. I have kept it out throughout all this cold weather.

So when the pump is not running, sap is still allowed to flow through it? If so, that changes my thought process.

[Clinkis]

So finally got an opportunity to use my sureflo 2088 sap puller the last couple days. Reasonably pleased with the results. I put it on an under performing pipeline of about 24 taps. I'd say it improved flow approximately 30-35%. Is this the type of results others are seeing?

[harrison6jd]

So when the pump is not running, sap is still allowed to flow through it? If so, that changes my thought process.
on my 2088 when not under power, the sap runs through the pump like a normal gravity system.

[wildlifewarrior]

We were getting about 5 gal per day just on gravity from 30 taps, we hooked a shurflo up and were averaging 35-40 gallons per day, every 1.5 days we were collecting from our 55 gal barrel. This thing really saved us this year.

On a side note, what would you guys think about putting one of these in the middle of the line, or in the middle of a long line (like in series), do you think that it would increase the capacity of the system? Maybe double the number of taps? We have another 100 or so taps we want to put into the system, it has a slight grade down, so we have a little help. We have a dairy pump, but need a releaser, all the plumbing etc, so I would prefer another one of these pumps since they work so great and are so easy to work and integrate into the system.

Mike

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

How many hours are you guys getting out of deep cycle batteries?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chasefamily]

is it only these pumps that will work? or any 12v utility pump? i see these sureflo are a diaphragm pump and can run dry without damage. just looking to see if i can get a pump tonight and hook up for the weekend? i see many transfer pumps are self priming so maybe they will work?

[DaveB]

is it only these pumps that will work? or any 12v utility pump? i see these sureflo are a diaphragm pump and can run dry without damage. just looking to see if i can get a pump tonight and hook up for the weekend? i see many transfer pumps are self priming so maybe they will work?

I think it needs to be a diaphragm pump. Many "self priming" pumps actually need fluid in them to work. I used a ShurFlo pump that I purchased online for $80+shipping (I have Amazon Prime which includes free shipping) and it worked well for me. One of the diaphragms did fail after three weeks but the replacement is $15 and I don't think that is a bad price to add vacuum.

[Chasefamily]

yes after lil bit of research i think too it needs to be a diaphragm pump and the shurflo seems to be the easiest to get. guess ill just have to wait a couple days for shipping. i see the 2088 4048 and 4008 have not chose which one yet. was just hoping could get something local to get the setup hooked up this weeked.

[Chasefamily]

I see that northern tool as some diaphragm pumps as well. also have some pumps that have auto shutoffs when no flow but dont think that would work to well for this application
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200578549_200578549

[Quagmire33]

Not sure about the auto shutoff but the pump should work. Its a self priming diaphragm pump that will self prime up to 12'. Don't see why it wouldn't work, but then again I'm just a carpenter.

I think you would want to put some type of filter on the inlet to prevent ice from getting to the diaphragms. My pro-pump I got from amazon came with a pre-filter screen and it does a great job at stopping the ice on those cold morning when the lines just start to run.

[Waynehere]

On a side note, what would you guys think about putting one of these in the middle of the line, or in the middle of a long line (like in series), do you think that it would increase the capacity of the system? Maybe double the number of taps? We have another 100 or so taps we want to put into the system, it has a slight grade down, so we have a little help. We have a dairy pump, but need a releaser, all the plumbing etc, so I would prefer another one of these pumps since they work so great and are so easy to work and integrate into the system.

Mike[/QUOTE]

As long as you don't put it before any more taps I would thing it would aid the vacuum to your line. If you put it before any more taps though, wouldn't it cause pressure instead of vacuum to the rest of the taps after the pump?

[Waynehere]

Well, I seem to have run into a snag with my 110v Shurflo 2088-594-154 Diaphragm Pump. The pump stopped working the other day. I pulled it apart and all of a sudden it started working again. Put it back in the field, checked it again today and it stopped again. Pulled it apart and found the brushes for the motor were wore out already. I cleaned them up along with the armature and back up for a day or 2 probably. I guess these little pumps were not designed to run very long. Having a hard time finding brushes for it as well. Looks like you would have to replace the whole back of the motor too. Anyone else have any problems with these pumps?

[TerryEspo]

Hey Wayne,,,sorry to hear about the pump issue, hope it hangs in for the rest of the season at least.

I want to ask, How many hours would you guess you have on the 2088 ?

Thanks

[Clinkis]

I have 12v sureflo 2088 and no problems so far. That said, our season has been short so hasn't ran much. You shut it off at night?

[Waynehere]

I only have been shutting it down at the end of a run, waiting for the next freeze and really cold nights. I could probably guess that it has been running a total of 2 weeks, but no more then 3-4 days straight.

I also have a 12v and that hasn't had any problems. I plan to take the brushes out of thta as well at the end of the season to see how that did too. Might be that the 12v is less harsh on the brushes vs the 110v. I was planning on getting another 3 pumps for next season, but need to do some more research on these. I did leave it on one night when it got way colder then the weather man was calling for. Go figure... :( Might be what caused the problem to begin with...

[pls009]

BLR - I would like to copy your set up for next year. It appears that you have two 5/16 lines coming in to the pump - how many taps are you able to hook up to these two lines?

I am trying to figure out if I could get away from having to run mainline and just use 5/16 tubing but not clog up the lines too bad?

[BRL]

BLR - I would like to copy your set up for next year. It appears that you have two 5/16 lines coming in to the pump - how many taps are you able to hook up to these two lines?

I am trying to figure out if I could get away from having to run mainline and just use 5/16 tubing but not clog up the lines too bad?

I have two 5/16" line connected to a 1/2" pvc manifold. One 5/16" line has probably 350' of tubing on it with about 35-40 taps. The other is 50' or so with 10 taps on it. Yesterday my buckets didn't run at all the pump brought in 55 gallons! These things work!

[pls009]

I have two 5/16" line connected to a 1/2" pvc manifold. One 5/16" line has probably 350' of tubing on it with about 35-40 taps. The other is 50' or so with 10 taps on it. Yesterday my buckets didn't run at all the pump brought in 55 gallons! These things work!

Thanks for sharing! Last two questions if you get time. 1) did you ever have any freeze up issues with your manifold or pump? 2) with this type of pump, will the sap still flow thru in case my battery runs dead before i get there to swap batteries? I wouldn't have power available for a trickle charger.

Thanks for your time and help!

[KevinS]

on the 2088 pumps how much vac are you pulling? I see the price is much lower but the pump looks far less industrial duty than the 4808. and they will not prime from as low, I can only take that to men they do not pull as many inches of vac.

[BRL]

Thanks for sharing! Last two questions if you get time. 1) did you ever have any freeze up issues with your manifold or pump? 2) with this type of pump, will the sap still flow thru in case my battery runs dead before i get there to swap batteries? I wouldn't have power available for a trickle charger.

Thanks for your time and help!

No problems with freeze ups because I have a 40 watt light bulb I plug in on the cold nights. I did run a union on either side of the pump so if I want to bring the pump in I can. I mounted the pump, batt, charger and switch on its own baseplate. Unplug the power cord to the charger undo the two unions, pull out pump, batt, charger and switch, connect the outlet union to the manifold union and sap can still flow to the tank. I'm not sure if the sap flows thru the pump when it's off because I've never the pump off when the sap was flowing, but I think someone here said theirs did. Hope that helps.

[SmellsLikeSyrupNH]

When I create my setup next year, thats exactly what I was gonna do, run a small lightbulb in the container box to make sure the pump doesnt freeze, I dont need it getting hot, I just want it to stay above freezing so the pump never freezes up.

I love the idea about the small battery charger keeping the battery charged and only pulling real electricty when it needs to charge the battery. Gonna be a fun project building this over the summer. Thanks for all the info everyone

[Snowy Pass Maple]

Regarding brush life - I had a discussion with Aquatec on this at one point... here are some key points directly from their engineering team:

Expect 1000-1500 hours in brush life at 120vac; expect 5000 hours at 12v/24v dc
24v enables a much smaller transformer than 12V due to lower current
Negative brush is what wears. Brush kit is ~ $15

This would suggest that even a 120V pump with controls to modulate it so it doesn't run 24/7 should have no problem getting through the season - but you should plan on a brush kit each year to be safe. While a 12V setup should run for years.

While I have 24V pumps, the transformers are harder to find, and bridging two deep cycles in the woods is a lot more hassle. 12V adapters seem much easier to find at low cost.

Note all of this feedback is from Aquatec - not ShurFlo - so YMMV. I can vouch for having > 1000 hours on 24V aquatec pumps that are rated for continuous duty. When I get some time, I will talk with my contact there further to better understand what might be an ideal fit for these applications.

[Waynehere]

Thanks Snowy, I was starting to think that was the problem myself. While I can find the end cap for the 12v 2088 model, no luck so far for the 120v model. And you are so correct about one of the brushes wearing down the fastest. When I pulled it apart, there was maybe only 1/3 of the brush left and brush debris all over inside. So far after cleaning it up it has been running fine again. Going to pull it tomorrow though as we are pretty much all dried up here now.

If anyone stumbles across a brush kit for this model, please post it. Might have to sell it and just use the 12v models. My computer power supplies seem to be working fine for power.

[DaveB]

It's interesting that you guys are discussing this because My ShurFlo 2088 stopped working after I had left it on for a couple of days and I thought that one of the diaphragms had failed but now I'm wondering about the brushes. I have a question about the Aquatec 12v pumps. I notice that they sell these pumps with a 120v transformer and I'm wondering if there is a difference between this and the 12v pump. The price is in-line with the ShurFlo's but it seems like parts are more readily available so I may try that line next year.

[Snowy Pass Maple]

It's interesting that you guys are discussing this because My ShurFlo 2088 stopped working after I had left it on for a couple of days and I thought that one of the diaphragms had failed but now I'm wondering about the brushes. I have a question about the Aquatec 12v pumps. I notice that they sell these pumps with a 120v transformer and I'm wondering if there is a difference between this and the 12v pump. The price is in-line with the ShurFlo's but it seems like parts are more readily available so I may try that line next year.

Aquatec's transformers are 24V - so actually that's one of the cheapest ways to go as long as you are OK on current draw. For a high pressure RO system, you can exceed the capacity of their larger 2 amp transformer. I think for vacuum applications you would be fine. And remember, while people are pulling around 2A on the 12V pumps, at 24V, they'd only pull around 1A.

[pls009]

Aquatec's transformers are 24V - so actually that's one of the cheapest ways to go as long as you are OK on current draw. For a high pressure RO system, you can exceed the capacity of their larger 2 amp transformer. I think for vacuum applications you would be fine. And remember, while people are pulling around 2A on the 12V pumps, at 24V, they'd only pull around 1A.

I am looking to set something up for next year - Snowy Pass Maple - Did you set up a system this year using an Aquatec pump and can you tell about your system was set up or experiences that you dealt with? I looked thru old posts but it didn't jump out at me if you already shared this. I like the idea of a 24V pump - thanks - Paul

[harrison6jd]

It's interesting that you guys are discussing this because My ShurFlo 2088 stopped working after I had left it on for a couple of days and I thought that one of the diaphragms had failed but now I'm wondering about the brushes. I have a question about the Aquatec 12v pumps. I notice that they sell these pumps with a 120v transformer and I'm wondering if there is a difference between this and the 12v pump. The price is in-line with the ShurFlo's but it seems like parts are more readily available so I may try that line next year.

Isnt the 2088 a magnetic drive pump? Are there brushes in these pumps? I dont know but thought i would put it out there.

[Waynehere]

Isnt the 2088 a magnetic drive pump? Are there brushes in these pumps? I dont know but thought i would put it out there.

These motors have permanent magnets instead of coil magnets. This is how they draw a lot less current. But they still require brushes. Magnetic motors are more used for variable speed applications like clothes washers. Not sure if they still use brushes or not though. I am going to look into the Aquatec line after my Shurflo failure.

[Snowy Pass Maple]

I am looking to set something up for next year - Snowy Pass Maple - Did you set up a system this year using an Aquatec pump and can you tell about your system was set up or experiences that you dealt with? I looked thru old posts but it didn't jump out at me if you already shared this. I like the idea of a 24V pump - thanks - Paul

I did not - but am going to do so for next year. I just had some experience using their pumps in RO and some of what I learned there seemed relevant to this discussion.

[harrison6jd]

These motors have permanent magnets instead of coil magnets. This is how they draw a lot less current. But they still require brushes. Magnetic motors are more used for variable speed applications like clothes washers. Not sure if they still use brushes or not though. I am going to look into the Aquatec line after my Shurflo failure.
Thank you for the information. Another tidbit to store away. I appreciate the help.

[bowhunter]

Here's a reply I got from John Wright Eastern Sales Manager for Shurflo. He says that the 12v motor will last longer than the 110 v motor, but that the diaphragm and the 12v motor will only last a year or two in this service. It might be worth cost to replace the entire pump every year.

"What 2088 pump have you been using? 2088-594-144?

If you can run a 12v version of the 2088-594-144, then you might consider # 2088 – 713-534 (similar material construction but a 12v with a sealed motor and switch). One step larger would be the #5040-2301-D011 (4gpm with a sealed mot & switch) and then the 5050-2301-C011 (5gpm).

The next thought is that once you solve the motor life challenge, the next will be the diaphragm life. Putting this much stress on the diaphragm to draw a vacuum puts great stress on the diaphragm. You will likely get more motor life from a 12v than a 115v but the diaphragm will not last forever. My suspicion is that the 12v motor will end up with a similar life as the diaphragm, but this should still be longer than what you are seeing in the 115v pumps. Is it long enough? Test it and find out. At the end of the day (or year!) it may still be cheaper to buy 2088’s or 5000 series pumps for a season or two rather than the mucher higher cost of a brushless motor pump. The 4 and 5gpm pumps have a larger and more powerful motor than a 2088.

By the way, some of our customers, use our rotary close-coupled external gear pumps to move the syrup during processing and packaging. This would be like the GMST2A or -4A. Some have used the bronze versions of this pump but this is not recommended as the bronze might contain some lead as part of the metallurgy. Some have switched over to the 316 stainless despite the higher pump cost. These can be purchased via distributors such as MSC Direct or Applied Industrial.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

John


John Wright

Eastern Sales Manager"

[CampHamp]

Good info on brush life expectancy. It's my 2nd year using 4048 for sap suction and transfers - so far no issues. Made 85 gallons of syrup (combined both seasons) and I leave on whenever above freezing. I only used it about 1/2 of last season for sap suction. I will have backup pump (4008) for next season (I found a new one on EBay for $49).

[Waynehere]

Thanks for the info on the pumps life expectancy. Interesting enough is that I can find end cap brush assembly replacements for the 12v pump, but not for the 110v? They were only about $25. And the diaphragm replacements were about $20.

http://www.rvpartscenter.com/ProductDetail.asp

[BRL]

Another great use for these pumps, at the end of the year when you pull all your taps. Warm up some water and put it in a tank, head up to your last tap turn on your pump, walk down your line and cap your lines. Works great!

[maplestudent]

I appreciate all the contributions that have been made to this thread. I keep coming back to it, trying to extract as much data as I can so I can try this next spring. So thanks to everyone that has commented.

I have some questions, but first, here's what I'm working with: this past year I had 34 taps on gravity (about 900' all 5/16), and 39 on buckets. I have another 40 or so trees I could tap that I haven't before. I have another 2000'+ of 5/16 tubing on hand, and that is what I plan to use for my entire setup. Also, I'm not sure if I will put all the trees on vacuum....a large % of them are Reds and can be very stubborn in giving up their sap and I have a bit of fear of having sap overload with them on vacuum..... but then, maybe I will anyways.

I'm thinking of setting up between 2 to 4 runs, all starting at a manifold near the vacuum pump. Here are my questions:

1. for those that have used all 5/16 tubing, was your setup mainline with laterals, or did each run of 5/16 have only drops attached? did you notice any problems?

2. if you had mainline with laterals, did you "strive for five", or was that of no concern? up to how many taps did you have on a lateral, and did you see any problems?

3. I can use either a 12v DC or 115v AC pump. I'm wondering if there is a consensus on which may be better, or what are the trade-offs?

4. Both the 12vDC and 115v AC pumps have several different models with varying prices.....what would be the key specs I'd be looking for?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[unc23win]

I'm thinking of setting up between 2 to 4 runs, all starting at a manifold near the vacuum pump. Here are my questions:

1. for those that have used all 5/16 tubing, was your setup mainline with laterals, or did each run of 5/16 have only drops attached? did you notice any problems?

2. if you had mainline with laterals, did you "strive for five", or was that of no concern? up to how many taps did you have on a lateral, and did you see any problems?

3. I can use either a 12v DC or 115v AC pump. I'm wondering if there is a consensus on which may be better, or what are the trade-offs?

4. Both the 12vDC and 115v AC pumps have several different models with varying prices.....what would be the key specs I'd be looking for?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

I'm not sure if you answers from guzzler guys only or not, but with all 5/16" you want to have your lines divided up so that a line that gets full of sap doesn't choke off the vacuum to the rest.

Are you considering larger mainline such as 1"? You might want to. Especially if you plan on continuing to expand.

Strive for 5 is very common for determining the number of taps on a lateral 5/16" line. Some people (myself included) are going for 3, but if you do 5 and a tree grows in a year or two add another line and have 3 & 3.

I think there already was some motor info posted below.

[CampHamp]

I appreciate all the contributions that have been made to this thread. I keep coming back to it, trying to extract as much data as I can so I can try this next spring. So thanks to everyone that has commented.

I have some questions, but first, here's what I'm working with: this past year I had 34 taps on gravity (about 900' all 5/16), and 39 on buckets. I have another 40 or so trees I could tap that I haven't before. I have another 2000'+ of 5/16 tubing on hand, and that is what I plan to use for my entire setup. Also, I'm not sure if I will put all the trees on vacuum....a large % of them are Reds and can be very stubborn in giving up their sap and I have a bit of fear of having sap overload with them on vacuum..... but then, maybe I will anyways.

I'm thinking of setting up between 2 to 4 runs, all starting at a manifold near the vacuum pump. Here are my questions:

1. for those that have used all 5/16 tubing, was your setup mainline with laterals, or did each run of 5/16 have only drops attached? did you notice any problems?

2. if you had mainline with laterals, did you "strive for five", or was that of no concern? up to how many taps did you have on a lateral, and did you see any problems?

3. I can use either a 12v DC or 115v AC pump. I'm wondering if there is a consensus on which may be better, or what are the trade-offs?

4. Both the 12vDC and 115v AC pumps have several different models with varying prices.....what would be the key specs I'd be looking for?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

I think the ShurFlo rep's statement indicated his recommending 12V over the 115V for life expectancy. Since he sells both, I don't think he is biased in this assessment.

In pump selection, I'd look for food-safe, good head lift (suction when dry power) and GPM (pump throughput when wet).

I had recommended vac to a neighbor who tried it with little benefit last year. I pulled more than twice the sap per tree than he did with the same pump. He had a "strive for five" setup and I had a "keep all sections moving downhill" approach and have about 15 taps per lateral. I only can guess, but think the meaningful differences between us were that (1) I checked for air leaks and re-seated taps more frequently and (2) I made sure that my last section of main line sloped down gradually into the pump so it would trickle in at a constant flow to keep the diaphragm wet while his would bunch up, run full-stream for a couple seconds, then idle on dry air for most of the time waiting for the next batch of sap.

[maplestudent]

I'm not sure if you answers from guzzler guys only or not, but with all 5/16" you want to have your lines divided up so that a line that gets full of sap doesn't choke off the vacuum to the rest.

Are you considering larger mainline such as 1"? You might want to. Especially if you plan on continuing to expand.

Strive for 5 is very common for determining the number of taps on a lateral 5/16" line. Some people (myself included) are going for 3, but if you do 5 and a tree grows in a year or two add another line and have 3 & 3.

I think there already was some motor info posted below.

thanks for responding. I'm thinking of using a Shurflo or Aquatec pump due to the cost, so I'm looking for information based on that. You are right there was some motor info.....I took notes on who said what, what problems were encountered, trying to compile something that made sense....and I realized I messed up my notes and attributed some comments to the wrong people, and needed to start over. So I thought I would ask first.

As far as going to a larger diameter mainline.....I'll never say no, but that isn't really my main goal right now. Cost to set this up is critical as I have other purchases to make too, so I'm planning to go with the 5/16 I already have as a mainline for now. I'm really just trying to get more sap from what I have. Last year on my best day I got about 30 gallons of sap from 73 trees (and there weren't many of those days - and the last few days of the season, which I boiled altogether, had a 65:1 sap to syrup ratio). I have about 110 trees (if I include those in the state ROW) to max out my land, though I'm always on the lookout for "one more tree".

[maplestudent]

I think the ShurFlo rep's statement indicated his recommending 12V over the 115V for life expectancy. Since he sells both, I don't think he is biased in this assessment.

In pump selection, I'd look for food-safe, good head lift (suction when dry power) and GPM (pump throughput when wet).

I had recommended vac to a neighbor who tried it with little benefit last year. I pulled more than twice the sap per tree than he did with the same pump. He had a "strive for five" setup and I had a "keep all sections moving downhill" approach and have about 15 taps per lateral. I only can guess, but think the meaningful differences between us were that (1) I checked for air leaks and re-seated taps more frequently and (2) I made sure that my last section of main line sloped down gradually into the pump so it would trickle in at a constant flow to keep the diaphragm wet while his would bunch up, run full-stream for a couple seconds, then idle on dry air for most of the time waiting for the next batch of sap.

Thank you for responding. In one of my initial write-ups of my questions (I lost them several times while trying to submit my post) I had mentioned that I was leaning toward the 12v. seems that from the ShurFlo rep's statement the 12v motor would last longer but the diaphragm would likely go sooner. and I figured I'd rather replace the diaphragm than the whole thing if I could. Thanks for defining "head lift" as I wasn't quite sure what that meant.

you say you had up to 15 taps on a lateral.....were those all drops directly to the lateral, or did you have any laterals branching?

as far as your last comment....If I understand you correctly, then having your line feeding the pump as full as possible is a good thing. So then there would seem to be a delicate balance between underloading and overloading a line....or am I looking at this wrong?

Again, thanks for responding

[Marvel26]

Before i ask my question please be aware that I am so new at tapping that I wouldn't even say I'm a rookie....however I am obviously interested in finding ways for increased yields.

I've read this entire thread and I've gone on an internet tour of all the various auction/wholesale sites I could think of and the question burning in my mind is....Which is most important for a pump to provide: the max pressure or the max volume/min?

I see that some have used a 2088 which has a 2.8gpm rate compared to the 4gpm rate of the 4048. I have found quite a few run-dry diaphragm pumps that can build up wicked pressures, 600psi as stated one site not that i believe everything I read, but only had a 1gpm flowrate. My first thought was that pressure is the most important as the flow rate of sap on a small line like I have in my head (<40 taps) would never come close to 1gpm.

Any thoughts?

Rob

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Rob,
Do you think you could post a link to the stronger diaphragm pumps? 600psi is going out, so it would more have to do with head lift, which is where the vacuum is produced. I may be wrong but that is my understanding, it depends on the pumps ability to pull which would be related to head lift.


Mike

[Marvel26]

Well darn, I can;t find that pump anymore, I did see it...i think, it was almost midnight last night when I posted so maybe I was "pump happy" at the time.

Anyway, here is another that I found today on EBay, 100psi, but no suction stated:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-4L-Min-100PSI-High-Pressure-Diaphragm-Water-Pump-/131313055186?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item1e92de35d2#ht_2180wt_916

Or this one which has supposedly an 80m lift....that seems like alot though as 80m =262.5 feet :
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/12V-Water-Pump-80m-lift-60W-power-0-85MPa-5L-min-max-flow-0-6kg-mini/756236371.html

[NJG]

Looking forward to trying a Shurflo pump this season and have really enjoyed all the work you folks have put into this thread. Only question I have is about the "ice filter" that is referenced.........what is it?

[Waynehere]

I believe they are these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RV-MARINE-WATER-PUMP-STRAINER-FILTER-SHURFLO-255-313-255-313-/151501625828?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Acc essories&hash=item23463359e4&vxp=mtr

I was just looking at getting some of these myself.

[BreezyHill]

Ice or slush filter will need to be DYI project. Wire screen to stop ice from entering the pump and chewing the diaphragm up.

[NJG]

Ah, gottcha.....thanks for the info I appreciate it.

[Chasefamily]

you ask a good point here. what would more effective. flow rate or head. seems as if a pump with less flow but more head may work good for a 50 tap setup. like the one in ur link that will pull 80m head and does 1gpm and cheap money. i wonder the same thing

[rhwells2003]

What a cool topic. Last fall I bought a house on 5ac. of the 5ac probably 3.5ac of it is wooded and mostly maple. I ran all my mainline this fall, and have started running my 5/16" laterals. My pipe dream was I would get everything set up this year with tank, pump, releaser the whole kit and kaboodle yyeeaahh then life happened haha. Money has gotten tight and I determined I would probably just do gravity this year. Then I read this topic and wondered if this could work in my set-up. My biggest concern is all the posts I'm reading about everyone is saying they have this set up on 40-150taps. I'm hoping to have 300-350. Is this too big? I have about 1500' of 1" mainline, and whenever everything is said and done I'll probably have 4000' of 5/16". And from my tank location to the upper section of my woods I gain 40'+/- in elevation. I'm thinking this all might be too much for this pumping set up, but I just don't know enough about the pumping aspect of things.

I found this pump on amazon. Would this be big enough to make it worth while?
http://www.amazon.com/Shurflo-8005-733-155-Diaphragm-Pump/dp/B00571IFN6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1420485964&sr=8-8&keywords=diaphragm+pump

[Waynehere]

From my experience, I would either go with the 12 volt or a guzzler.

http://www.mapleguys.com/product/GUZZLER1.html

The 120 volt is hard on the motor brushes. Mine wore out before the season was up. With your larger bush, I would suggest the guzzler. Still using a diaphragm pump so no need for a releaser..

Good luck man..

[spud]

What a cool topic. Last fall I bought a house on 5ac. of the 5ac probably 3.5ac of it is wooded and mostly maple. I ran all my mainline this fall, and have started running my 5/16" laterals. My pipe dream was I would get everything set up this year with tank, pump, releaser the whole kit and kaboodle yyeeaahh then life happened haha. Money has gotten tight and I determined I would probably just do gravity this year. Then I read this topic and wondered if this could work in my set-up. My biggest concern is all the posts I'm reading about everyone is saying they have this set up on 40-150taps. I'm hoping to have 300-350. Is this too big? I have about 1500' of 1" mainline, and whenever everything is said and done I'll probably have 4000' of 5/16". And from my tank location to the upper section of my woods I gain 40'+/- in elevation. I'm thinking this all might be too much for this pumping set up, but I just don't know enough about the pumping aspect of things.

I found this pump on amazon. Would this be big enough to make it worth while?
http://www.amazon.com/Shurflo-8005-733-155-Diaphragm-Pump/dp/B00571IFN6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1420485964&sr=8-8&keywords=diaphragm+pump

With a 40 foot drop in elevation you might want to use the 3/16 tubing and run long laterals. This will give you natural vacuum.

Spud

[Four D Acre Farms]

Not sure how the 3/16 lines do on marginal flow days with slower flow rates but from my experience that is where the Diaphragm pumps really shine. We have one pump running about 425 taps through 1400 ft of main and 3000 feet of 5/16 in two of our bushes with good results the biggest thing I have seen is you have to stay on top of leaks and diaphragm failures. Diaphragms and labor to change are still less expensive for our setups than a liquid ring and releaser for now with the number of taps.

[rhwells2003]

waynehere - That guzzler pump looks nice but price is a huge thing for me right now. I just can't afford a $600 pump this year. That's why I was wondering if I can get away with an $80 pump for this year, then upgrade next year.

spud - I'm pretty much all set-up and laid out for vacuum, 1" main's, 5/16 laterals, with 5-8 taps per lateral. I know if I have to settle with just gravity this year I wont benefit from any gravity vacuum. But from the get go I knew I would be on some sort of pump vacuum either this year or next so I wanted to set up for it that way.

four D acre farms - That's interesting, sounds like a very similar set-up to what I have. What pump do you use? How often do you go through diaphragms? What kind of vacuum are you pulling? If I can get away with an $80 pump with no releaser this year that would be great. I'll upgrade next year.

[wnybassman]

I received a couple 2088's the other day. First thing I did is take the head apart to see how the thing works. For the life of me, I can't see how sap would flow through this without the pump running? It seems to have little one way flapper things that would take a bit of pressure to move liquid (which the pump takes care of when running) from one port to the other. Unless there is enough pressure in a gravity line to accomplish this? I tried drizzling a little water from the kitchen sink into the inlet side and it did not go through the pump.

[CampHamp]

I agree, you don't want a pump asleep on your main line - you want vacuum not pressure in that tubing.

In 2013, I would detach the pump from the line at night to allow sap to flow in the hours between the manual shut-down and morning start-up. In 2014, I started using a temp switch for the pump, so that the pump is always running when its above freezing. I would just leave the pump attached after that and even began to eat breakfast and dinner like the normal people do.

[maplestudent]

Normal people activities during sugaring season - interesting concept

[huntingken111]

Ok read entire post 6 times. Purchased dc pump have it ready to go but want to add pressure gauges went to tractor supply but not sure which one to get can someone steer me in right direction.

[Biz]

You probably want the vacuum gauge on the inlet side, like the VPGA25 that Bascoms sells. Let us know what you are getting for vacuum!

https://www.bascommaple.com/category/gauge/vacuum_units/

[huntingken111]

Thanks for quick reply is it wet or dry vac guage I am looking for? Tractor supply has bunch of different ones and instead of ordering two (one for front and one for end) I would like to go there and buy them and finish this project. Then maybe I can cross one of my 1000 projects before sap run.

[wnybassman]

Well, this is what I came up with...................

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10944712_1554316414838581_5253781022322860210_n.jp g?oh=ccb895c5af18b24a672d2ba960770620&oe=554B0968&__gda__=1435900247_9fad265aad86d5c8f7f4dcee206cf9e f


https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/10864003_1554317568171799_1910518483817651421_o.jp g


I went with the 12 volt model seeing the motors brush life seems to be much much better according to this thread. So, there above the outlet, is a 150w power supply to power the pump. I mounted a light bulb for heat for cold days/nights to keep the pump head warm. Outside the box are T's, with the "straight through" going through the little 5/16" valve when open. When valve is shut, sap is redirected through the pump. I elected not to go with an ice filter because sap will have to make the 90º bend in the T when the pump is in use. I figured ice of any consistency that would harm the pump would not be able to make that bend.

We shall see, maybe my whole design sucks. lol (pun intended)

[BRL]

Love the design wnybassman! I like it so much we are building two today! Thanks for the idea.

[maplestudent]

thanks for posting that picture wnybassman. I'll probably be building something similar tonight.

[vtgaryw]

My first design last year had a vacuum gauge on the inlet of the pump. Then I realized that I really cared about the vacuum at the end of the lateral lines. I bought a couple of cheap (~ $ 5 ea) gauges from China on eBay, and installed them at the ends of the line.

-gary

[vtgaryw]

By the way, anyone find a good source for spare diaphragms for the ShurFlo pumps?

-gary

[Biz]

It looks great wnybassman! I'm building something similar. A lot uglier, but the valve and motor are automated and turn on/off at programmed temperatures. Runs off a 12V battery so I need to be careful about freezing up. No light bulb so hopefully there isn't enough residual sap in the motor to damage anything. Trying to pitch lines so they can drain. Testing it on a real line in a few days!

Dave

[vtgaryw]

So, here's another question. I had such good luck with the diaphragm pump last year, I upgraded to a 3/4" mainline this year. I like the cut-over valve idea so I can continue the flow even if the pump's not running. Last year I just did it manually with a quick connect fitting.

I have another small stand of trees that I would like to add into the system (probably one additional lateral line) but it's slightly downhill from the pump and collection tank. It wouldn't be a problem when it was running on vacuum, but what would happen if the pump was off? Will it mess up any natural vacuum on the rest of the lines? Or would I want to shut it off with it's own valve if the pump wasn't running?

-gary

[vtgaryw]

OK, I have yet another question:

OK, I've got one more question - I want to wire my Chinese made Temp controller to my 12V Shurflo pump. I have a 12VDC power supply running the pump. The temp controller looks like the input can be either 120VAC or 12VDC. Here's a pic along with the diagram in the mostly useless instruction sheet.
10833
What do I hook to what?

Thanks,

Gary

[DaveB]

By the way, anyone find a good source for spare diaphragms for the ShurFlo pumps?

-gary

I ordered this, but I don't think it's the right part:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FQ7976/

I think the right part is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-94-238-04-Diaphram-Lower-Housing/dp/B002IVEPLY/

I'll know more when I take the pump apart!

[CampHamp]

Here's how I wired mine.

10834

For your thermostat, translate the image as follows:
K0 = 1
K1 = 2
12V = 3
GND = 4

Also, if you look at the tick marks on the back of your unit it says that your model it is powered by 12V supply (numbers 3 and 4). I expect you could sent any voltage (below 10A) through the switch (1 and 2).

[vtgaryw]

Thanks, that's pretty much the way I drew it up, but I wanted to double check before I started.

Thanks!

Gary


Here's how I wired mine.

10834

For your thermostat, translate the image as follows:
K0 = 1
K1 = 2
12V = 3
GND = 4

Also, if you look at the tick marks on the back of your unit it says that your model it is powered by 12V supply (numbers 3 and 4). I expect you could sent any voltage (below 10A) through the switch (1 and 2).

[wnybassman]

Got the tubing trees tapped today, and fired up the Shur-Flo. It works!! Pulling a little sap even though it is only a degree or two above freezing.

Funny story of the day.......

I was working on one "end of line" fitting and had to cut the line so I took a cup of water to see if it would suck the water up. Nope, nothing. Wasn't pulling it in the tube one bit, and no sucking sound either. Figured something went awry, I made my way over to the pump to see if it was still running. It was. Went back to the tree and fiddled with it for several minutes, until I realized I was on a group of five trees that are not on the vacuum line!! What an idiot!! lol

So when I did pull a tap halfway up the vacuum line, it made a huge sucking sound as it came out, and sucked that water out of the cup like no tomorrow. There was enough suction to hold the tap to the tree without tapping it back in (although I obviously did tap it back in)

A little bad video from my phone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx7CjaCsCUA

[TerryEspo]

Noel:

The video wont work,,, is it just me or does it say to all, "This video is private"

I really wanted to see it.

Thanks.

Terry

[wnybassman]

Any better now?

[TerryEspo]

Yeah,,,,,, much better,,,, video works fine, real nice unit there.

Thanks.

Terry

[Chasefamily]

Are you guys using the adjustable shut off switches on these shurflo pumps or bypassing the

[Clinkis]

Any better now?

Nice! I added another pump to another pipeline this year and am anxiously waiting for the warm weather so I can try it!

[wildwood]

Are you guys using the adjustable shut off switches on these shurflo pumps or bypassing the

The pressure switches in the Shurflo pumps should not come into play in this scenario. We use one for water supply and the pressure switch is on discharge side, so for instance if the faucet is closed the pump is not running. If you open the faucet the pressure in the line drops and this turns on the pump.

In these scenarios it looks like they are not restricting the output side with a valve so the pump should more or less never turn off* (someone correct me if I'm wrong)




*except of course the guys that are running them on timers and thermostats or bringing in at night!

[wnybassman]

The pressure switches in the Shurflo pumps should not come into play in this scenario. We use one for water supply and the pressure switch is on discharge side, so for instance if the faucet is closed the pump is not running. If you open the faucet the pressure in the line drops and this turns on the pump.

In these scenarios it looks like they are not restricting the output side with a valve so the pump should more or less never turn off* (someone correct me if I'm wrong)




*except of course the guys that are running them on timers and thermostats or bringing in at night!

Exactly, no pressure switch being utilized.

[huntingken111]

Check shurflo pump today and it was pulling sap. Went to end of 500 feet of line with 30 taps on it and vacuum gauge read 22 inches.

[BAP]

I have 108 taps on my Shurflo 4028 pump with two 1/2" mainlines. Was pulling 20+" of vacuum today. Very little flow as there is still about 3 feet of snow around the trees. Hopefully the warm weather in the next few days will knock down the snow so the base of the trees can thaw out more.

[wnybassman]

Just got home and went out to check the pump. It is not sucking, after only three days of running. Have not taken it apart yet to figure out the problem, but not sucking right now really sucks!

[CampHamp]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/11/1aaf966186177d5141eb59fe0f2801e2.jpg
Here is my reading using the Shurflo 4048 with medium-high flow right now. It was close to 24" earlier when the sun was out. The reading is off my mainline.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wnybassman]

Just got home and went out to check the pump. It is not sucking, after only three days of running. Have not taken it apart yet to figure out the problem, but not sucking right now really sucks!

Dismantled everything, took it apart and the diaphragm looked fine. Put it back together, plugged it in, and it was working. Hooked it all back up, sucked like crazy..............for about 15 minutes then stopped again. Motor is running, but it just ain't pullin'.


Has anyone had any similar experience? I have a second pump, but kinda hesitant to hook it up and have a problem with that one too.

[pennslytucky]

bassman, do u have a vac gauge on there? mine just sits there sucking on a bubble when the sap isnt flowing well, and if i didnt have a gauge id swear it wasnt working. it just get that slug of air in it and everything stops till the sap flows and lowers the vac enough for the pump to be able to eat the bubble. if u shut it off for 10 minutes, then turn it back on, it pulls like mad for a bit till the vac is up and it gets stuck on a bubble again. as long as the trees are flowing, mine keps eating the bubbles and pulling in cycles

[wnybassman]

bassman, do u have a vac gauge on there? mine just sits there sucking on a bubble when the sap isnt flowing well, and if i didnt have a gauge id swear it wasnt working. it just get that slug of air in it and everything stops till the sap flows and lowers the vac enough for the pump to be able to eat the bubble. if u shut it off for 10 minutes, then turn it back on, it pulls like mad for a bit till the vac is up and it gets stuck on a bubble again. as long as the trees are flowing, mine keps eating the bubbles and pulling in cycles

No gauge yet. When it didn't appear to be working I pulled a tap halfway up the run, and got no hissing/suction sound. After I took it apart and put it back together and it was working for a while, I pulled the same tap and got a big hissing/suction sound.

When it is working it keeps the tubing near the pump pretty clear of sap, and there is a one foot sharp drop just before it goes into the pump. Today the tubing was full halfway up that short drop, not pulling it at all. Almost is if there is a blockage, but I don't think there is as far as I can tell. Can small debris (wood shavings, tube scum, etc.) in the pump head somewhere cause these symptoms?

[S&STappers]

Make sure you have a filter in front of the pump to keep the gunk, and especially ice, from entering the pump. Got mine at an RV store. Clear plastic spin on cartridge with a screen inside. Works great.

[wnybassman]

Perhaps I did jump the gun. Plugged it in today when I got home seeing the lines were running. Sucked like crazy for 10 minutes then went back to what it was doing yesterday. Unplugged it and bypassed it again. Line went back to its normal slow drizzle. Never did think to look at the end of the line in the tank while it was "acting up" so I plugged it back in. Sucked for a couple minutes then went into acting up mode, but there was a good stream coming out of the line. 5 seconds no stream, 5 seconds good stream. Kept alternating like that the whole time I watched it. I guess it is working as it should. I'll check it out in a half hour or so and seeing if it still pulling. My gauge and fittings will be here tomorrow, that will be the tell all I guess.

[adk1]

I am only getting 5" of vac on mine. I have leaks but havent had the chance to chase them yet

[epd0407]

Question on the Shurflo. Mine came with half inch barb fittings but they are WAY too small for the half inch tubing. How are you getting the pump on the tubing? Are you buying other fittings than came with the unit?

[CampHamp]

Question on the Shurflo. Mine came with half inch barb fittings but they are WAY too small for the half inch tubing. How are you getting the pump on the tubing? Are you buying other fittings than came with the unit?

I'm not sure why the Lamb tubing is called 1/2 inch tubing - the inside is larger than that. I used these (https://www.bascommaple.com/item/mee05/). One on the outlet and one on the strainer. They don't have straight adapters for this at Bascoms any longer, just elbows.

[CampHamp]

5 seconds no stream, 5 seconds good stream. Kept alternating like that the whole time I watched it. I guess it is working as it should.
If you can keep your mainline sloping gradually to the inlet then it will trickle in a constant stream. When the vacuum builds up in your line, the pump will idle on air. I find I get more vacuum if I can keep air over sap the whole way up the mainline and always keep the diaphragm chugging on sap. My pump is even tilted up at 5 degrees to encourage that trickle... give it a try.

[wnybassman]

Installed a gauge today and it confirmed my concerns, zero vacuum. I have it bypassed right now until I find some time to monkey with it. Discouraging because I saw how good it works for a couple days.

[pennslytucky]

pull the pump head apart. theres gotta be something holding a valve open or something. im not sure how shurflo pumps look inside, but my aquatec pumps have a valve assembly and 3 diaphrams (or 5 depending on pump). all it takes is a wood chip to get under the lip of that little rubber valve and it would inop the pump

[wnybassman]

pull the pump head apart. theres gotta be something holding a valve open or something. im not sure how shurflo pumps look inside, but my aquatec pumps have a valve assembly and 3 diaphrams (or 5 depending on pump). all it takes is a wood chip to get under the lip of that little rubber valve and it would inop the pump

I hope to get things taken apart tomorrow to take a look. That kinda what I think to.

[wnybassman]

I swapped out the pumps today.

Now that's better!!

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s163/wnybassman/maple/vacgauge_zpsokvo4gue.jpg

I have not torn down the first pump yet to figure out if there is a blockage or not. Or if there is any other obvious problem. At least I know it works............when it works. lol

[wnybassman]

Is this a normal condition, or am I leaking too much air around this tap?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMAXR2pO-do&feature=youtu.be

[CampHamp]

I use a car battery to power my 12V DC pump and a battery charger on top of that. Bulky. My pump (the 4048) is rated for 10amps but when running, it draws about 1.7amps.

I would like to use 110V AC inverter and started reading about how the voltage changes depending on the amperage used but that you need to get one sized for max load. So if I use a 10amp inverter, then while drawing only 2amps, the voltage wouldn't be anywhere near 12V, or so I expect from my brief research on this.

For those of you who are using a 110V AC to 12V DC inverter, how did you size it? Have you done an in-line test of your voltage? What can these motors tolerate beyond 12V?

Thanks, in advance, for any info...

[wnybassman]

I use a car battery to power my 12V DC pump and a battery charger on top of that. Bulky. My pump (the 4048) is rated for 10amps but when running, it draws about 1.7amps.

I would like to use 110V AC inverter and started reading about how the voltage changes depending on the amperage used but that you need to get one sized for max load. So if I use a 10amp inverter, then while drawing only 2amps, the voltage wouldn't be anywhere near 12V, or so I expect from my brief research on this.

For those of you who are using a 110V AC to 12V DC inverter, how did you size it? Have you done an in-line test of your voltage? What can these motors tolerate beyond 12V?

Thanks, in advance, for any info...

I based my inverter on wattage. I think the max. wattage for the 2088 I have was something like 120-130 watts and I found an inverter for 150 watts. Never thought to check the voltage.

[wnybassman]

I peaked out at 19.5 inches today, then as it got colder it dropped to 17 or so. I crossed my fingers and turned it off for the night and turned the light bulb on. I'll be turning it on tomorrow before it gets above freezing and with temps right around 50 later I hope it builds that vac back up like it was today.

I did take the head of the other pump apart and could not see anything wrong with it. No debris at all, big or small, came out of it and the diaphragm looked to be in great shape. Beats me! Maybe the second one will crap out in a few days too, I don't know.

For those of you that had brush failure, did the pump still sound like it was running? Or just not making any noise?

[Clinkis]

It's a beautiful thing......I fixed a couple leaks today and got it up to 21". Sap wasn't flowing much today but still got about 3/4 gallons per tap.11117

[pennslytucky]

a brush failure would be no spinning. same as a broken power wire.

i leave my aquatec 8800 run 24/7. its 24v AC. it runs of a power invertor thats made for their pumps. says aquatec right on it. these are made for continuous operation for long periods of time at 80+psi so im kinda expecting it to run this low load for weeks on end at least a few seasons. the pump wont freeze if its running. the lines freeze then the pump runs dry and idles till the lines thaw out

[wildlifewarrior]

Anyone know where I can get diaphragms for a 4048. We have had great vac on it for the last week, and yesterday and today it seemed to be a little less, with ending today with almost no sap movement. It could be that the trees stopped running since 2 nights in a row we didn't hit freezing. I also just want to have some spares on hand just in case.

Thanks,
Mike

[lpakiz]

Noel,
That is definitely too much air along with the sap. I would suspect a hollw tree, with the tap pulling air from inside, or you are near a seam or old tap hole, or other defect. Either plug it and forget it for the year, or re-drill. Go shallower this time, or at a tangent to the trunk. If the tree is hollow, it might not be long for this world anyway, so get what you can get.
On my system, a couple leaks like that and I would lose 2-3 inches HG.

[wnybassman]

These things are going to drive me crazy!

17 inches last night when I turned it off. Went below freezing at night, but not much. Was right at or slightly above freezing at daybreak when I turned it back on. Went to work.

Got home and immediately checked the gauge. 0!!! Ran down to the tank and not a drop was coming out of the outlet line. It's 50 and all other trees are flowing. Flipped the bypass valve and the line started running like crazy.

I swapped out the pump to the one I took apart last night and couldn't find anything wrong with. Started sucking immediately and building vac. Just came in the house and it is at 22 inches!!! What the heck?!?

Do I just need the swap out the pumps every day?? lol

Only thing I know I don't have is a filter. Are you guys that have filters seeing a lot of gunk/junk in the filter that could stop flow like that? I would think even if it was a little blocked I'd still get at least some drops out of the outlets, and there was zero! I will be adding a filter, but just don't have one yet

[adk1]

Is this a normal condition, or am I leaking too much air around this tap?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMAXR2pO-do&feature=youtu.bei have never seen sap coming out of a clear tap, I ise the black cv. But that doesn't look like its way out of sorts

[Clinkis]

These things are going to drive me crazy!

17 inches last night when I turned it off. Went below freezing at night, but not much. Was right at or slightly above freezing at daybreak when I turned it back on. Went to work.

Got home and immediately checked the gauge. 0!!! Ran down to the tank and not a drop was coming out of the outlet line. It's 50 and all other trees are flowing. Flipped the bypass valve and the line started running like crazy.

I swapped out the pump to the one I took apart last night and couldn't find anything wrong with. Started sucking immediately and building vac. Just came in the house and it is at 22 inches!!! What the heck?!?

Do I just need the swap out the pumps every day?? lol

Only thing I know I don't have is a filter. Are you guys that have filters seeing a lot of gunk/junk in the filter that could stop flow like that? I would think even if it was a little blocked I'd still get at least some drops out of the outlets, and there was zero! I will be adding a filter, but just don't have one yet

What model of pump are you using? I have two surflo 2088 on all 5/16 and so far, knock on wood, have had no trouble. I used one most of last year and was so impressed I bought another. I don't have filters on mine. I bring them in every night and put them back out in the morning. Hooked them up this morning and was below freezing and lines were frozen solid turned them on and went to work. Came home tonight, pulling 17" of vac and tanks were full. Is there debris in your lines getting sucked into your pump? You are all on 5/16 right?

[wnybassman]

What model of pump are you using? I have two surflo 2088 on all 5/16 and so far, knock on wood, have had no trouble. I used one most of last year and was so impressed I bought another. I don't have filters on mine. I bring them in every night and put them back out in the morning. Hooked them up this morning and was below freezing and lines were frozen solid turned them on and went to work. Came home tonight, pulling 17" of vac and tanks were full. Is there debris in your lines getting sucked into your pump? You are all on 5/16 right?

Mine are 2088's as well. Only difference from you is that I leave mine out and keep the light bulb on all night. This morning the line was froze, but I could see liquid sap on either side of the pump so I know the pump is not freezing. Very confusing, everyone else seems to do just about anything and are trouble free. I just went out and checked the gauge, still pulling 21.5 inches. it ain't getting turned off until it fails, or it freezes hard (tomorrow night in the teens they say).

I took the pump that failed today apart tonight. Found the same thing as the other one, nothing. So I guess this one is ready to swap out when the time comes. lol

[maplestudent]

wnybassman....what's your tubing configuration?

I have a shurflo 4008 (12v DC), all 5/16 tubing, two main runs coming into a manifold just before the pump. I have a shutoff valve then a shurflo filter just before the pump (no separate pump-bypass line at this time). seems at times the flow just stops.....I'm thinking I'm getting some vapor lock or something because I have some side-runs with several drops, not just single drops straight onto the line, although I do have many of those too. sometimes if I shake the tubing near the pump....it will starting flowing.

I use a re-purposed computer power supply that I yanked out of a PC that hasn't been used in several years. If I remember correctly, the 12v lead I use provides either 7 or 8 amps.

[wnybassman]

wnybassman....what's your tubing configuration?

I have a shurflo 4008 (12v DC), all 5/16 tubing, two main runs coming into a manifold just before the pump. I have a shutoff valve then a shurflo filter just before the pump (no separate pump-bypass line at this time). seems at times the flow just stops.....I'm thinking I'm getting some vapor lock or something because I have some side-runs with several drops, not just single drops straight onto the line, although I do have many of those too. sometimes if I shake the tubing near the pump....it will starting flowing.

I use a re-purposed computer power supply that I yanked out of a PC that hasn't been used in several years. If I remember correctly, the 12v lead I use provides either 7 or 8 amps.

I have one line, fairly straight and down a decent grade. All 5/16. 18 trees on it. It held great vac all last night and all day today. I shut it off at 25º and still had 15 inches on it. My guess is the next time I fire it up I will have issues again.

[harrison6jd]

I run 2088 pump and have had similar woes. it pulls from one area and not another. one theory I have is that the area it is pulling from had more leakage making the pull easier and the area with no flow has less leakage making the pull harder. just one guys opinion.
I have one line, fairly straight and down a decent grade. All 5/16. 18 trees on it. It held great vac all last night and all day today. I shut it off at 25º and still had 15 inches on it. My guess is the next time I fire it up I will have issues again.

[DaveB]

Does any know what the out flow capacity from a Shurflo 2088 is? Can I connect a 300' out flow pipe that has no more than a 3-6' rise to it? I've pumped over that distance without an issue with other pumps but I wasn't sure if this pump could support sucking sap and pushing it out 300' at the same time. I read that it can actually do better with a head but wasn't sure about that distance.

[harrison6jd]

I have that pump with two 5/16 lines coming together before the pump and a 1/2 inch line leaving the pump. I used to have the pump on the ground pumping up 4' into the tank but noticed the battery wouldnt last all day and the it would struggle to push a full 1/2 line up to the top. I think it worked the pump too hard. maybe if I had the same line out as in it would have been better but I just put the pump on top of the tank and as soon as the flow passes through the pump, it gravity feeds down into the tank. the battery lasted twice as long after making the switch. this doesn't give a direct answer to your question but shows some limits of the pump
Does any know what the out flow capacity from a Shurflo 2088 is? Can I connect a 300' out flow pipe that has no more than a 3-6' rise to it? I've pumped over that distance without an issue with other pumps but I wasn't sure if this pump could support sucking sap and pushing it out 300' at the same time. I read that it can actually do better with a head but wasn't sure about that distance.

[maplestudent]

Does any know what the out flow capacity from a Shurflo 2088 is? Can I connect a 300' out flow pipe that has no more than a 3-6' rise to it? I've pumped over that distance without an issue with other pumps but I wasn't sure if this pump could support sucking sap and pushing it out 300' at the same time. I read that it can actually do better with a head but wasn't sure about that distance.

I can't offer you any numbers or mathematical calculations, but these pumps have a limited amount of work capacity. It would seem that whatever work you want it to do on the outflow side will inversely affect the work you want it to do in the inflow side.

[DaveB]

I can't offer you any numbers or mathematical calculations, but these pumps have a limited amount of work capacity. It would seem that whatever work you want it to do on the outflow side will inversely affect the work you want it to do in the inflow side.

That's a valid point. I guess I could have the out flow go directly into a container and use a second pump to move it from there. Can anyone recommend a self priming submersible pump that can be used for sap transfer? I'd prefer something that could be left out.

[pennslytucky]

any cheap little irrigation pump will move sap. i have one i got off ebay a few years ago. think it was 15 bucks shipped. could use a sump pump if you had alot to move or it has to go a long ways.

[Atgreene]

I've bought two sureflows after reading here how well they work. Farmed this one into a 200+ tap mainline just to try it. Not a great running day, but it did well.

Sap beginning to run at Greene Maple Farm Sebago: https://youtu.be/aS_nUtJ99FQ

[CampHamp]

I wasn't sure if this pump could support sucking sap and pushing it out 300' at the same time.

You'll find the flow rating for their pumps to various heights on their website under the pump's specs. That assumes you're moving water with no air and no major lift to the inlet. So these specs won't help you very well with what you are wanting to try. I don't think the 300' is much friction and 6' seems nice and low, so I'd say try it and listen to the pump for straining and see if your vac numbers are maintained.

I did try this with a bigger pump but over 30' up, and it did it but it was straining, so I opted to just disconnect and transfer (added a valve to hold vac before detaching). This year I have a dedicated transfer pump for moving sap to the shack and am much happier.

[DaveB]

You'll find the flow rating for their pumps to various heights on their website under the pump's specs. That assumes you're moving water with no air and no major lift to the inlet. So these specs won't help you very well with what you are wanting to try. I don't think the 300' is much friction and 6' seems nice and low, so I'd say try it and listen to the pump for straining and see if your vac numbers are maintained.

I did try this with a bigger pump but over 30' up, and it did it but it was straining, so I opted to just disconnect and transfer (added a valve to hold vac before detaching). This year I have a dedicated transfer pump for moving sap to the shack and am much happier.

Since I have power at the pump site, I'm just going to run two pumps to make it easier. I'll have the Shurflo dump into a small container (probably a 5 gallon pail) and another that I picked up for $18 to transfer the sap. I also picked up a vacuum gauge because I don't have one so I can at least see what is going on. I should have done that last year!

[markct]

Dave i use 4.5 inch dia vac gauges from mcmaster. They are like 21 bucks and are great to be able to see from 50ft away. I have them tied to trees near the road at various areas so i can drive by and know at a glance how my vac is doing

[DaveB]

Dave i use 4.5 inch dia vac gauges from mcmaster. They are like 21 bucks and are great to be able to see from 50ft away. I have them tied to trees near the road at various areas so i can drive by and know at a glance how my vac is doing

For some reason I thought I could just get away without having the gauges so I never bought them. I'm getting a set to put at the end of my lines so I can see what kind of vacuum I'm getting. One area does border the road so I might do what you suggest there.

[RIVERWINDS]

I finally set up my Shurflo pump and once I fixed a few leaky joints, I was pulling nearly 22 inches on the gauge. I have 800 ft of 1" mainline with 101 taps on CV2's. I have real low slope (1.5% grade) so the pump has that nice constant chewing when things are running. Lines out performed my buckets 3:1 yesterday.

Appreciate all the information everyone has posted on this subject.

Update 3/25--Tightened up another tee and it's up to 25" vac

[wnybassman]

I am still struggling getting any consistency with my pump. Last night I was at 16 inches, woke up to 10 inches and am maintaining about 6 inches now. I'm about ready to give up on it.

But today I found the best use for these pumps so far (for me). I drained the syrup pan last night and soaked it overnight. Left it right on the arch. Rinsed it out today using the inlet tube dangling in a 5 gallon bucket of water and the outlet on a 6 to 8 foot chunk of tubing that I could direct anywhere in the pan I wanted. Being a 12 volt pump I hooked it up to my Vexilar ice fishing fish finder battery. Those pumps really crank the water through, and made for excellent rinsing.

I'll be using these pumps for my truck tank next year. I'll set up a dump station bucket that will pump up to the bigger tank.

Maybe someday I'll figure out why my results for vacuum have been so erratic.

[RIVERWINDS]

Until I had time to chase leaks, I could only get 6-7". Then within a hour or so, jumped right up there.



I am still struggling getting any consistency with my pump. Last night I was at 16 inches, woke up to 10 inches and am maintaining about 6 inches now. I'm about ready to give up on it.

But today I found the best use for these pumps so far (for me). I drained the syrup pan last night and soaked it overnight. Left it right on the arch. Rinsed it out today using the inlet tube dangling in a 5 gallon bucket of water and the outlet on a 6 to 8 foot chunk of tubing that I could direct anywhere in the pan I wanted. Being a 12 volt pump I hooked it up to my Vexilar ice fishing fish finder battery. Those pumps really crank the water through, and made for excellent rinsing.

I'll be using these pumps for my truck tank next year. I'll set up a dump station bucket that will pump up to the bigger tank.

Maybe someday I'll figure out why my results for vacuum have been so erratic.

[CampHamp]

A stellar year for this vac solution here in southern NH. Just over 1/2G of syrup per tap (58G on 115 taps). I'm honestly starting to worry if I should be taking that much sugar from my trees. They are healthy forest trees, but no huge crowns like road-side trees. I wonder if the tapping guidelines revolve more around number of holes a tree can recover from or the amount of sap they can donate without harm? If it's the amount of sap, then maybe putting 26" on them is a bit much over the long run (?).

[adk1]

I have a sap puller diaphragm pump. It doesn't take mich of a leak to really drop the vac. For instance, I have a bad squirrel problem. I was running at 13" of vac and it dropped to 4 to 5 inches. I go look for leaks, found it. A big squirrel chew I could hear air sucking from 20 feet away. Once I fixed that one leak, it jumped back to 13". It should be doing at least 20" but I have allot of smaller leaks etc that I haven't found yet

[Marvel26]

I finally set up my Shurflo pump and once I fixed a few leaky joints, I was pulling nearly 22 inches on the gauge. I have 800 ft of 1" mainline with 101 taps on CV2's. I have real low slope (1.5% grade) so the pump has that nice constant chewing when things are running. Lines out performed my buckets 3:1 yesterday.

Appreciate all the information everyone has posted on this subject.

Update 3/25--Tightened up another tee and it's up to 25" vac

Greg,

Did you have any issues with the mainline freezing? Well, now that I think of it the more accurate question would be did you have issues with the mainline NOT thawing?

I ask this as I have to create slope in my bush and with the distance I want it to go I would only be at 1-2%.


Rob

[BlueberryHill]

What is the best Shurflo to get? I see that 12V will last longer, but what about diaphragm availability and overall pump reliability? Has anyone determined the best model to get for sap applications?

[RIVERWINDS]

Rob, No issues that I know of with the mainline freezing or thawing. I bought a cheap temperature controller off ebay so at 31 deg the pump shuts off, and I have it to start back up at a 3 degree variance, so it comes on at 34 deg outside temp. I found 34 to be the temp where my laterals thawed and figured if those were thawed the mainline would be shortly after. It takes about an hour for the little pump to get back up to 25" vacuum so once it hits 34 and the pump kicks on, I still had about an hour before it was really pulling hard. I did notice a few early mornings the filter before the pump had some ice in it but that's why we have the filter there.

I am only rising 18" for every 100 ft, I used a transit to set heights as my woods is flat. I think the pump works better when it is constantly "chewing" or has some liquid in it. Steeper slopes, I would guess, you would get surges of sap and therefor the pump would be periodically empty of incoming sap. I bought 2 spare diaphragms anticipating a failure or two, but it made it all season.

[Mr. Red Maple]

Hey guys, I've read through this thread a couple times now and have a question. At one point a person posted about how they use the aquatec 8800. They said it is made to run 24/7 and you can buy an inverter made for it.
Does anyone have any information about aquatec pumps? It seams that they might last much longer than shurflo pumps and are designed to run all the time? If anyone uses these what kind of vacuum do you get?

Thanks Ryan