LR Pump and moisture trap filling up

[Amber Gold]

I have a new pump setup with electric releaser, CDL moisture trap, and LR vac. pump in a shed. The LR vac. line runs flat before it drops into the top of the moisture trap with a 90 elbow. The moisture trap is filling up with water, and since nothing's running, the only thing I can figure is it's coming from the LR pump. Does this make sense? The only thing I can figure is that some water is drawing down to the moisture trap and filling it up.

One thing I noticed yesterday, and the first time I've seen it happen, is the LR pump would stop flowing water for a few seconds and then all of a sudden start drawing a bunch of water. I adjusted the water flow and watched it for a bit and I didn't see it do it again, but maybe it is. Maybe when this happens, there's more vac. in the system and less in the pump head, and water's able to flow to the moisture trap??

Thanks

[Amber Gold]

Had a second thought. Should I just take the moisture trap out of the picture? Is it doing anything for me?

[GeneralStark]

Had a second thought. Should I just take the moisture trap out of the picture? Is it doing anything for me?

I can't visualize how water would be getting from the pump to a moisture trap between the pump and the releaser when the pump is running unless the pump is running backwards.

Regardless, I can't see why you would need a moisture trap with a LR pump.

[maplwrks]

Sounds to me like your pump is running backwards. Are you building any vacuum?

[Amber Gold]

Pulling 25" currently. Been running since Sunday and the moisture trap's filled up about every 12 hrs.

[DrTimPerkins]

... is the LR pump would stop flowing water for a few seconds and then all of a sudden start drawing a bunch of water.

Something is plumbed wrong. It's been a while since I've thought about the pump, moisture trap, releaser plumbing setup, but isn't there usually a checkvalve between the MT and the pump? This is more important with oil-cooling to prevent oil from being pulled back into the system, contaminating the sap, but you sure don't need water (maybe contaminated) from being sucked back to the MT or releaser (extra boiling). It sounds like perhaps your tubing system is acting like a huge reservoir, and is occasionally overcoming the pump, pulling it in reverse or pulling water through it briefly. A checkvalve should eliminate that possibility. Just make sure it is oriented in the right direction (air flow towards the pump).

[Amber Gold]

Good point. There's a check valve between the releaser and moisture trap. It's a CDL electric MT. I intend to wire the MT to the VFD, but haven't gotten there yet. Idea is if the moisture trap fills up from the releaser failing, it'd shut the VFD off, drain, then restart the VFD. I hadn't considered water getting in there from the pump side. To reduce fittings, I went straight out of the pump, then down into the releaser. If it'd help, I could elbow up for 6", run over to the MT, then elbow down into the MT.

The pump never stops spinning, it just stops drawing water, then it'll all of sudden catch a prime (I guess) with a big slug of water then settle down and run fine. It would then run fine for a while, then do it again. I was doing work in the area so was able to listen in on it.

This is a new setup for me. I haven't had the pump/MT/releaser this close together before...usually separated by 900' of pipe. I'll try to get a pic of the setup tomorrow.

[GeneralStark]

I wonder if there is a small leak somewhere between the pump and releaser so the vacuum in the tubing system is at times overcoming the vacuum created by the pump and pulling water into the MT. I have seen this with two tubing systems run off one pump. One system was leaky while the other was very tight. The tight system could overcome the pump and the check valves on the inlet of the releaser of the tight system would close and the tight tubing system would fill up with sap. Glad I am done with that situation.

Put the check valve between the pump and MT and I suspect the problem will go away.

[DrTimPerkins]

Put the check valve between the pump and MT and I suspect the problem will go away.

I agree that this is the first place to start.

[wiam]

I do not have a moisture trap next to my LR pump.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks again for the input. The reason for putting it between the releaser and MT was so if the MT filled up, I wouldn't have to drain the vac. in the entire woods to get the ball to drop...only the short segment from the pump to the MT. Would there be a problem with putting a second check valve in between the pump and MT?

[GeneralStark]

I don't think that would be a problem. Is the goal with the MT to have it shut off the pump if it fills? Are you concerned about the submersible pump in the releaser failing? I am using a similar setup with a LR pump and an electric releaser with a submersible pump on a float switch in the releaser chamber. But, I am not using a MT to keep things simple. Not an issue with the pump but I guess you are concerned about losing sap?

It seems like the MT won't solve the issue that would cause the submersible to fail so if the MT shuts off the pump and then is restarted won't the same thing just keep happening?

[Amber Gold]

Yes on shutting off the pump if the electric releaser fails for some reason. I put the MT in thinking that it was good practice to have between the pump and releaser...kind of an isolation between the two.

After work, I adjusted the water flow, but still had issues with it periodically stopping flow for a few seconds. After running for 20 minutes, there was about two cups of liquid that drained out of the MT. Since sap isn't flowing, I took the ball out of the MT to see how much it fills up overnight.

My next thought is to put the MT on top of the tank, so it's higher than the vac. pump, or to eliminate the MT entirely. Below are pics of my current setup.

8803 8804

[Brian Ryther]

After looking at your photos, Since you are running pure water and the tank has a over flow there is no need for the trap. it is just adding bends and twists and turns that add up to line loss and cfm reduction.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I would eliminate it. If a little sap gets to the pump if the releaser fails so what. you will fix the ice up or what ever. Sap going into a liquid ring pump will not hurt it.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would eliminate it. If a little sap gets to the pump if the releaser fails so what. you will fix the ice up or what ever. Sap going into a liquid ring pump will not hurt it.

Except that if the releaser fails, you'll be cooling your pump with sap and not collecting much of it. At least with a moisture trap you may know something is wrong.

[wiam]

Except that if the releaser fails, you'll be cooling your pump with sap and not collecting much of it. At least with a moisture trap you may know something is wrong.

But if there is a ball in the releaser it should do the same thing.

I have 1600 feet to my releaser. I have a MT at the releaser to make sure sap does not get in line. I eliminated MT at pump because it kept filling from what I believe is condensation. This is one big reason I went from a sp-22 to a water cooled LR.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for the advice. I like having the moisture trap in there because it does isolate one from the other, and would like to keep it in if I can make it work with no issues. If I didn't have the moisture trap, I wouldn't know about the issue I'm having. For some reason, Lapierre stopped putting balls in their releasers...don't know why, but guessing it's because they want you to buy a MT too.

Since I pulled the ball out the other day, everything's worked fine. The moisture trap fills up to a point (don't know how much), but it doesn't backup into the releaser at all. I shut the pump off and the MT dumps a bunch of water out. After this run's over, I'm going to relocate the MT on top of the tank, put the ball in, and see if it fixes the MT filling up problem. If not, the MT will be gone.

What's irking me now, is why does the pump stop flowing water periodically...I can't figure it out...never done this before.

I'm also having an issue with getting the pump to pull a prime. I think it's because the MT has a spring loaded CV to dump out...normally open maybe, so it doesn't close until the vacuum sucks it shut...can't get a prime so can't generate vacuum. I'll be replacing this with a swing CV.

Another thing that's surprising me is my cooling line isn't hooked up yet. Water tank is quite warm, but still pulling 25"+ of vacuum. I thought you needed cold water to pull high vacuum??

[maplwrks]

Josh---I just sent you a PM

[BAP]

Josh are your sure that is water getting into your trap and not sap? I would test it with a hydrometer to make sure. Could be the sap is splashing around in the releaser and a little bit is getting sucked up into the trap. From what I could see in your pictures of the releaser, looks like there is sap droplets on the cover up close to the vacuum line.

[Amber Gold]

Positive. I started the vac. pump on Sunday and sap didn't run till Thursday. I've had the problem from the start. Sap ran yesterday and the releaser pump worked fine. I watched it kick on this morning, and the submersible pump is kicking on where it should...far below the top of the releaser.

I think the water droplets are on the outside of the releaser. My cooling line isn't turned on yet, so the stock tank water has warmed up and is creating condensation. The top of the box is left open for ventilation. My cooling line is running about 180' downhill to the pump, and I didn't want to deal with it potentially freezing with this week's warmup, so I've left it empty. It'll get turned on with the next run.

[Amber Gold]

Last Friday, the electric releaser was full of sap and overflowing into the moisture trap. The STA-RITE submersible pump was on and running, but not pumping anything. I took the releaser apart to check the screen, and it was clean, so I put the releaser back together and it worked fine. it's the only time this has happened, and I'm guessing it was air bound. The pump is centered in the releaser and coming out of the pump is the following: pump, nipple, brass check valve, adapter, elbow, union, PVC discharge pipe out of the releaser.

Is there a way I can prevent this issue from happening in the future?

Thanks

[GeneralStark]

In my electric releaser setup, I am using a Goulds pump that is similar to the starite. I was warned about the air bound situation with the pump by a fellow trader that I got the pump from. His solution, and I have done the same, is to drill a 1/8" -1/4" hole pre check valve in the outlet pipe. Sounds like you have a nipple between the pump and check valve so that would be the place to do it if you were to try this.

The idea here is the vacuum in the releaser helps to pull the sap through the pump and keep it from getting air locked. You do end up recirculating some sap, but it is minimal. Something to consider I guess.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks. I had a tiny drill bit with me and drilled four holes in the pipe. Should be all set now.