Stacks and codes. Holy moly!!!

[Jmsmithy]

New 16x20' sugar house w/12x20 attached woodshed and 16x16 back slab w/ roof for storage tanks amosy done!! Here's the issue:

Picking up new Leader next Friday/sat. My contractor saying he doesn't want to install the stacks as the single pipe Leader provides as "not safe" in his opinion. He wants us to use triple wall pipe or he won't install as he's worried about his responsibility in event of a fire.... We don't have a cupola, will have hood suspended w/ steam stack vented through roof peak. Smoke stack off back of evaporator the same, vented through roof peak. We are getting Leader made roof jacks.

My understanding, from our codes official, he's not concerned as an ag building so not subject to same codes as houses etc would be. I can't for the life of me believe the steam stack would be an issue... As for the smoke stack.....:confused:

Thoughts? Do I need double or triple wall or is what coming from Leader sufficient??

[maple flats]

Mine has been single pipe for the stack for 11 seasons. However, I made it triple wall from below the ceiling to the steel roof. My stack is 12" thru the roof, around that I made a 16" and a 20" that is suspended from the trusses and held snug against underside of the steel roof. Each time you have a piece of sheet metal spaced at 1" on non combustible spacers, you cut the clearance requirement in half. I only used 2" spacing because I had the room and it was easier for me. A single wall needs 36" clearance, half is 18" and half again is 9". Being Ag I didn't need an inspection by our fire department but I chose to for insurance purposes. The fire dept really liked the method I used. If clearance between trusses or rafters is tight, just space 1" and you can even go another layer to cut the space to half again. My method is not the same as triple wall, because in triple wall, the bottom edge is closed and the center layer is raised an inch or so. This sets up a circulation in the pipe, as hot raises in between the inner layers, cold is drawn down the outer layers. This allows the clearance to be just 1" from the outer to the wood adjacent.
Another option is to insulate with a non combustible insulation, such as ceramic, that protects and requires less room. Just be certain if you insulate that the coverage is 100%, no gaps, no way.

[OldManMaple]

The thing to remember with Metalbestos or Duratech or ANY factory built chimney listed to UL103HT including most triple wall is that these are residential type chimneys for appliances with 1000 degree F maximum output temps under normal operating conditions. They're tested to 2100 degrees F as in the event of a chimney fire, which is normally short in duration. If you are going to use a factory built chimney and run it higher than 1000 degrees F, the chimney pipe should be installed with more than the minimum 2-inch clearance to combustibles to be on the safe side. Rule on single wall pipe is 3 times pipe diameter unless you reduce clearance .

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

OIL or WOOD?

If my Ins. company found out im running a "business" and my garage/sugar house burns because of it I get a whopping $0 dollars for ins. But I only have home owners if I wanted could buy business ins and prob be covered.
Roof penetration, what flats says is perfect for smoke stack, steam stack shouldnt even be a question. What size stack? does any one make a metalbestos `10 or 12" stack?

[Michael Greer]

Metalbestos does make larger stacks. It's pricey, but it might just put your mind at ease. A smoldering rafter can really distract you from what you're supposed to be doing in there.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Metalbestos does make larger stacks. It's pricey, but it might just put your mind at ease. A smoldering rafter can really distract you from what you're supposed to be doing in there.
Thats why I have a bug sprayer that used to have round up in it now has water to squirt on the rafters when they start to change color

[Jmsmithy]

Am I assuming correctly that it doesn't matter for the steam stack, just the smoke?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Am I assuming correctly that it doesn't matter for the steam stack, just the smoke?
a wood fired unit will get a lot hotter than oil fired I would think, so if wood fired I would be more concerned about distance to framing than oil fired.
Steam stack wont be a problem at all

[maple flats]

Since the steam is not pressurized, it can not be over 219 degrees, and by the time it gets to the rafters it loses a few degrees. Not a problem. Anything under 300 degrees is no problem.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Since the steam is not pressurized, it can not be over 219 degrees, and by the time it gets to the rafters it loses a few degrees. Not a problem. Anything under 300 degrees is no problem.
Flat is correct re kindle of structure fires usually happen around
300+ degrees

[Dave Y]

Do you have a metal roof or is it wood with shingles? I installed my single wall flue stack thru my metal roof. I have about 18"of clearance all the way around. We cut out rafters and built a box around it. We have had no issues and the haven't even changed color in the four years it has been installed. If I knew how to post pictures I would.

[Jim Brown]

I put triple wall through the roof with 8 inches of clearance.Triple wall is expensive but so is a new sugar house/garage' Mine is rated for 1500 degrees!
Jim

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I spent my career in aviation, and just as in this case, everyone must meet minimum standards, or codes (in my case it was the Federal Air Regulations), as the case may be. Many folks in all fields have different standards. First you must know what the minimum standards are, as your contractor must, or should. He obviously is not comfortable with that pipe, and single wall pipe requires huge clearances for combustibles. What your contractor is presenting, is to use chimney pipe, and not stove pipe. THis is normally what one would do. Stove pipe is not normally used for penetrations.
You seem to have two choices. Present him with a viable alternative, and supporting documentation (tell him for his records), or just let him do it his way, and trust in him.

I am just installing my cupola, and during the design phase I spent a lot of time on this. I am installing a metal roof, and have 8 inch stack.
22 inch spaces (24" on center) between existing rafters and truces, same for cupola.

I decided on Selkirk double wall black stove pipe from arch through roof. Requires 6 inch clearance to combustibles. I will have just over that, and I may put sheet metal heat shields over the rafters and truces for added measure. It is stove pipe, and not chimney pipe (that is the triple wall). It would normally not be used to go through a ceiling or roof in a home.

Here is the Selkirk reference
http://www.selkirkcorp.com/selkirk/product.aspx?id=58

8761

[tessiersfarm]

I don't know about you guys but metalbestos melts from the inside out in a couple of seasons for us, it can't take the heat we put out for that duration. I'd tell the contractor to educate himself before he tries educating you. If the codes guy is good with it and the manufacturer is supplying it with the evaporator, how can he dispute it just follow the installation recommendations.

[The Sweet Spot]

We ran a 10" stack through rafters 24" on center with a metal roof. Leaves only 7" on both sides, so we wrapped the rafters with flashing material and double walled going through the rafter area up to the bottom of the roof jack. To do this we used 3' of 12" stack from the bottom of the roof jack down. I fashioned small tabs inside the 12" stack to maintain the 1" gap. This worked great till this year. Our snow was so heavy without an above freezing day all year, the snow did not slide till it was over 4' deep. Crushed the roof jack and ripped back the roofing material. I will re-install the same way and weld angel iron in front to avoid this happening again. In Michigan AG buildings are exempt from building codes. I have a letter from a Michigan State Supreme Court Judge stating this. Had to go to bat here in my county as they were demanding we have a commercial kitchen to make syrup. Having said this we must protect our investment. Do it right and you will not have to do it again. I obviously did not do everything right. This will cost about $400.00 to fix not including my time. One of my sugar bush friends asked if we should do something for the sliding snow when we put it in. I thought there was only 6' of snow above the roof jack so no need. Opp's do over. Have a great season everyone but be safe. Do everything you can to prevent do over's. Time + Energy = MONEY

[Lazarus]

We installed a new Leader oil fired 2x6 this year and went round and round on the pipe. Also used Leader roof jacks. The oil exhaust roof jack for Leader only fits single wall exhaust pipe. My HVAC guy (also the electrician) knows the codes backwards and forwards and I swear is physically incapable of violating them. For oil furnaces (have a new one in the house) it is the manufacturer's discretion how the pipe is run. And that is the code for oil, at least in Ohio. After lots of calls back and forth with Leader, we used single wall and made sure it wasn't touching anything. Stainless loses heat fast and oil exhaust is tuned to 700 degrees at two feet above the arch. By the time it reaches my 22 ft high roof, it's a lot colder. I used ceramic blanket around anything I was worried about.

[Jmsmithy]

Got to say I'm more than a little disappointed in Leader. No doubt the equipment is top notch but service on this issue been lacking. No direction/advice from them, via our dealer they basically wanted to stay out of it. They did ( my retailer) have a few chats w/ my contractor which was a big help. You'd think with the size of Leader, how much of the market they have, etc etc they would be much more forthcoming with instruction on how to install/advice regarding clearances etc. Now I know about liability ( I'm an insurance agent in my non-maple job :lol: ) and understand they would rather not be involved but, seriously, I don't think it's asking much to offer some advice...we ordered roof jacks from them, not cheap (nothing they make is) and since everything is custom made, and they made no attempt to explain anything about combustibles, clearances etc, turns out when we made the decision to go w/ double walled pipe, it didn't fit my roof jack and - you guessed it - I'm stuck with a brand new one that they won't take back....have to say, given what we've spent just this year (I know not a lot compared to large guys but $10k is $10k ) they could've been a LOT more helpful...eg, thought when I initially ordered our new rig we'd have at least some type of install, even if for a fee. More than a little concerned when found out we on our own....we figuring it out but would've been nice - not to mention much faster - to have a little more support....I will say my distributor answers questions as they come up but only when shop is open and I can get someone on phone....at least when this is over I'll be done and won't have to do it again next season....until we grow again !!! :lol: :o

[Lazarus]

Think that's bad? Try to get some information on what all the buttons do on the control panel of that $15k oil unit. Seriously. There are no instructions that come with, none to be had from asking, begging, or threatening. (Hint: save yourself a month of research - they don't do anything. Leader just grabbed a component off-the-shelf that had the LCD pressure readout panel they wanted, and didn't use any of the extra buttons -rather than have a component made that fit their purpose).

[Jmsmithy]

So today the hood doesn't fit...follow me here: I ordered my rig etc etc and when we decided not to do a cupola decided to go with a hood and stack instead. So I ordered that - from my distributor. Pick it up, go to install today. Doesn't fit to well between smoke stack at end of rig. We made sure everything plumb and level probably 10x. Sooooo I take a few pix, email to our friends in Swanton and get someone (don't want to name names as they all were helpful). First question out of Leader rep's mouth "well, who made your hood? Shouldn't be one piece but two...." :o :evil: :cry:

Maybe it's me :lol:

[Lazarus]

It's not just you. A recent conversation with them regarding the flip style stack toppers was amusing. I was asking how they envisioned the cabling working for those, as I was yanking the steam stacks too far side to side when opening the tops with my ropes. First suggestion: bolt the stack flip top directly to the roof jack top, not the stack. Me: Uhhhhhhh, won't that make it, like, impossible to raise the hoods? Leader: (Silence for a minute) Good point.

In the end, he did answer my question. It just took a while, and he needed a little help from me.:lol: