Off topic Outdoor Wood Boiler

[optionguru]

I have a 3500 sq ft home and about 75 feet away a large barn with sections that have been insulated and turned into usable winter space. Pawn shop (approx 600 sq ft) and an office (approx 500 sq ft). Most of the property is heated with propane which has been going up in price over the last couple years. I have access to inexpensive wood so I've started thinking about heating the whole property with an outdoor wood boiler. Does anyone have any experience with these. It seems that most of them mention water capacity more than they mention btu's. How do I know what size I need? The house currently has forced hot air and the other two have direct vent propane fireplaces for heat. Also curious what the typical installation cost would be. Thanks in advance for any help.

[maple milker]

I bought a Central Boiler stove about 7 years ago and it has been one of my better investments. Although my house is only 1300 sq. ft. I still probably saved about $2500 from not buying oil this year alone. The stove was $5500 and the insulated water hose is about $10 per foot. Definitely go with the tubing that is insulated with the foam that completely seals it from water penetration. Mine isn't terribly efficient as I use about 12 pick up loads of loosely stacked wood per year but they do make a more efficient model now- mostly to satisfy environmental concerns. The dealer will fix you up with the proper size stove for your needs and I just ran my water lines through the basement wall and placed the heat exchanger in the phlenem of the oil stove. You will then need another thermostat in the house which is rigged to only run the blower of the stove and not actually turn on the oil burner or propane in your case. I do still use the oil in the Spring and Fall when you want just to take the chill off the house with out building a fire which will just smolder half of the day and creasote up the inside. It was a handy way to use up all of those dead ash trees too.

[saphead]

look into Portage & Main gasification units...wish I could afford one but my house isn't set up for forced hot water.

[Russell Lampron]

Pete you need to talk to the guy at "Farmer For Hire" in Conway. He sells Central boilers and has the answers to all of your questions, he is also a good guy to do business with. I bought mine from him in the fall of 2007. That was the last time that I bought heating oil too. I have a Central Classic 6048 and heat 2 houses about, 2200 sq ft plus the basements, as well as the RO room in my sugar house. I think mine is rated for 500,000 btu's.

[Russell Lampron]

look into Portage & Main gasification units...wish I could afford one but my house isn't set up for forced hot water.

Your house doesn't need to be set up for forced hot water. A heat exchanger is installed in the plenum of your forced hot air furnace and the water from the OWB is pumped through it.

[farmall h]

Appalachian Supply in Littleton. Russell is correct. Matter of fact you can have Modine heaters installed in your out buildings. I have the smallest model. The 5048 I think. My house is 3400 sq. ft. 2 story cape. Modine in full basement. Generally burn 10-12 cord from November-May. All hardwood. The unit will accept 3 ft wood but jeeesh...bust my back. I split large chunks in half @ 26" length. Still buy oil for heating of my hot water in the summer. 150 gallons. Purchased mine in 2006. I like it.
I might add. The units are more efficient now than what Russell and I purchased. They have a sort of non-catalytic re-burn gasification of sorts now. You may be looking in the $8500-9000 range but they pay for themselves in 4-5 years or sooner.

[3GoatHill]

Make sure you are home during the installation and be careful who you get to do the work. I've had one since 2006. As long as it's cold and dry it works great. The problem I had is with the insulated lines that run underground. Make sure it's done right. The lines are enclosed in insulated pipes that come in 12 foot sections. If they're not joined together properly, they will separate and let the cold groundwater leak in, drastically reducing the efficiency.

[maple flats]

look into Portage & Main gasification units...wish I could afford one but my house isn't set up for forced hot water.
saphead,
I was in the business from 1985-1999, when I sold the business because I was getting too old to keep up with the pace. In that time we sold and installed over 400 units.
You say your house is not set up for "forced hot water". If that means you do have forced air, perfect. We converted likely about 85%+ of the installations to forced air by placing a heat exchange coil in the plenum. On a few, we actually had a unit made that housed the coil with a blower under it, and then ran ducts to the rooms in the home. If you have electric baseboard, you would either need to do that or you could remove the existing baseboard and install hot water baseboard. There are very few if any homes that can't be set up with an OWB. Likely the best situation is a country setting. These units run very clean when firing but the older ones smoldered and smoked quite a bit. The new ones out there, by law must be far cleaner than the originals were.
Just check with a dealer, and ask for 3 or more references. Also, when you see a unit at a home, stop and talk with them, that way you won't be steered to the dealers best friends and relatives. (I suspect some do that).
The newer gassification models are well worth the extra. They burn far cleaner and get way better efficiency, saving you wood every year.

[Rhino]

Back in 1994 i bought a central boiler cl-17. It holds 175 gallons of water and i heat my 1400 sq. ft. house, half of my 24x40 garage and all my hot water for the house and also hot water to the garage. This is my 20th heating season with the same unit and all i had to put into it is 2 new taco water pumps and i layed a block chimney because the metal ones never lasted long. The stove is 120 ft. away from my house and 20 ft away from the garage. They eat alot of wood, I would also say 10 to 12 full cord a heating season. I tell people if you don't have your own woods, or a cheap supply of wood, and you don't have the time or ability to make the wood, or fire the unit up 2 to 3 times a day, i wouldn't get one. After 20 years of useing and making the wood for it, we decided to sell it, which i had a guy put a down payment on it already and he will pick it up after the heating season. Back in 1994 i paid $3200 for the boiler and the installation, sold it for $700. Not a bad investment. Also remember unless you have someone fire it up for you, or you have anti freeze in it, you won't be taking many winter get aways to warmer climates. (they also make duel fuel ones that can switch to propane if you want to leave and want to get that option). With my size stove i fire up at 7 a.m and again at 8 p.m unless it is extremely cold like -10 or lower, then i fire a 3rd time at 10 p.m to make sure the fire will be good at 7 a.m The worst thing is at 4 a.m you can feel the house isn't as warm as it should be and you have to get the fire going again. I did learn to have a propane cylinder with a rose bud torch ready just in case that happens. My house is hydronic but i also added a modine in the lines down stairs to get a fast recovery rate of heat. In the garage is just a modine also. In my case i love the stove but im into to many things besides syrup and i have to cut out some work which is why i decided to sell it.

[Rhino]

Just had to add one thing about the gasification units. My uncle bought one a few years back after selling his 1994 central boiler like mine. In his opinion, he hates it, for the simple fact that now you have to season your wood so it's dry. With our old central boilers, and im sure the other ones that arn't gasification units, you can throw anything in them as far as fresh cut wood. In fact right now i am burning fresh cut aspen and ash, he can't, he has to always make sure he has enough dry wood for the heating season or hes out in the woods looking for dead standing trees, or buying seasoned wood. Im watching his pile when i stop in there and he might have a issue this year with the cold winter, pile is dwindling fast.

[Sullydog]

I'm sure I'm asking for trouble for saying this but I know 3 people with central boilers and two with Aqua therms and they wish they had one like mine. I have a Crown Royal stove myself and love it. I heat approx 5000 square feet with mine. The other people that have central boilers are heating less than half that and they go through about 1/3 more wood than I do in a season. I know that there are several factors for this like insulation value of the house and heating type, but it comes down to recovery time of heating the water in the stove up.
To make this easy I will list the things people I know hate about there stoves and love about mine.
Central boiler....no ash pan...gotta dig out your ashes same with aqua therm
Crown Royal..ash pan and shaker grates
The big one NO Forced air draft. This is big everyone wants them on their evaporators but they don't have them in their boilers? The Crown Royal has air under fire and air over fire for a more complete and efficient burn. This is awesome for starting a new fire or bringing one back from a few coals. Also it heats the water back up in the stove very fast.. Minutes instead of hours. In the Central and Aqua therm the time to raise the temp back up can take all day due to a damper and natural draft and large amount of water in the stove.
Another nice thing is the Crown can burn wood,coal or cobbed corn. I burn mostly wood but do mix in coal when it's really cold works great.
So here is the one thing about the Central that is a plus. The burn time is very long my father in law only reloads his every 24 hrs. This isn't because it's more efficient it's just that the door and fire box is twice the size of the Crown Royal and can hold 2X more wood.
I love my boiler. Every one I know wants one like it. My cousin is probably buying mine this year and I'm gonna get a bigger one to heat the syrup barn and inground pool.
One last thing all the boilers I'm talking about are 5-10 yrs old maybe the newer ones are different now.
I would look at as many different stoves as you can and talk to people who have owned them for a few years. Central boilers have been around for years and they hold up, but it's the little things that will annoy you, like shoveling hot ashes out when it's windy..central boiler and aqua therm.
Good luck

[Drew Pond Maple]

I have a central boiler e- classic. One of those EPA approved ones. Had it 4 years now.
They do need seasoned, but whats the difference if you cut your wood and stack in November or cut in may and stack it. I can burn green wood if I mix it with seasoned, just smokes more.
This unit burns with the fire going down the bottom of the fire box, through a 3"x8" hole into a reburn chamber where secondary air is added. When all is working there is 0 smoke, just heat ripples. But sometimes if the hole is plugged with ashes it will smoke. These units are more finicky than older models that can burn anything and require some weekly and monthly maintenance.
Farmer4 Hire in Conway is a great guy to do business with, very honest straight shooter and was cheaper than the dealer in Claremont.
I only burn 6-7 cords but I also have a indoor stove that uses 3 cords. I heat my house only and it's 2500 square feet and real old (1700's).
Also, after reading the post above, newer Central boilers like mine are forced air with a pressurized fire box like on evaporators. Recovery is fairly quick, but don't have anything to compare to.

[not_for_sale]

Well, I bought a Midwest Boiler two years ago. t's a solid unit, but, unfortunately it's no gasification unit. If you are used to a wood stove you'll be surprised how much these stoves eat. I have a. Wood pile that you could see from space. No joke. Google maps. It's gone, and it lasted 12 weeks. I would not buy it again. It's the largest unit they sell but man, it's inefficient.

[not_for_sale]

I also did the most efficient way you could possibly insulate the in ground pipe: spray foam. And an insulated underground pipe. I don't lose anything from the wood boiler to the house. All I can say, either get a Heiss heater or get a gasification unit.

[afretired]

All of the outside wood boilers are great except they are expensive to purchase. I went a different route. Making an outside wood boiler isn't rocket science. In-fact I have made one for me then I made one for my daughter and a very large one for a neighbor who lives in an old elementary school and heats it. For that one I used a piece of 42" diameter gas pipe 6' long for the fire box and built a 900 gallon water jacket around it. For mine I have a fire box that is a welded box with an additional flue baffle to increase the surface area. The fire box is about 40" square with a 36" square door. It also has a forced air blower that is controlled by the water temperature. If you can get it in the door it will burn it. I use it half of the time for an incinerator to burn trash and building scrapes throughout the year heating my domestic hot water also. Oh and when you need hot water to spray off a tractor or something, a hose hooked to the stove and 180 degree water works great. I am heating my house which is about 3000 sq ft and my honey house which is 728 sq ft and I'm thinking about running a zone and set of lines to my garage. No matter what you do make certain the line from the stove to the house are water tight from ground water just like 3GoatHill said earlier. Mine leak and when it snows I'm losing enough heat into the ground to melt a 6 ft wide strip to my house. Maybe this summer I'll dig it up and fix it. The larger the water capacity the less the water temp fluctuates. You have a larger thermal mass. Where it really comes in is when you run out of wood, with a large capacity it still heats for quit a while while if you only had a small water capacity it would get cold quickly. Also it wont boil off as fast if you load it to heavy. If you make one, use a design that minimizes the number of welds, since welds are possible problems down the road. Also have it where you can get back in and do repairs if needed. I like the design of using gas line for the fire box and then welding ends on it, and building a water jacket around it. Then use ready made parts for the rest like the Taco pump. I really wish I had made one years 15 years ago. I haven't bought any propane for heat in the last 5 years.

David

[optionguru]

Thank you all for information. I live in a very rural setting and a number of people around here have the OWB and I'm glad to hear the good and bad about the different types. Looks like another spring project in the works.

[Slyboro]

Give Alternative heating of North America a call.607-643-6122. Mark is a hydronic expert. Very eager to help in any way he can. He has given me invaluable guidance and he sells quality systems. He is in Burlington Flats NY. He is at the Fryeburg fair every year.

[Bruce L]

We have an Empyre, about 10 years old, looking to upgrade to maybe a gasification unit, but like said earlier I cut ash today and threw it in with snow on it and it is burning, but it sure likes it's wood. The most critical thing is DON'T USE AN INSULATED PIPE IN SECTIONS!!!!! I don't care what any installer tells you, the joints WILL come apart from the heat and the frost working in the ground. I found out the hard way whenever there was a thaw and the groundwater got moving we would freeze to death no matter how much we flogged the furnace, temperature leaving the furnace 180 degrees and temperature at the pump in the basement 80 degrees! Now the temperature doesn't drop a noticeable amount.

[TheMapleMoose]

My father has one and I believe it's a sequoia? Regardless, it is gasification and works great. It will burn wood either green or seasoned. He's found that burning softwood he makes out better if it's been cut for a year. It doesn't really burn the wood, it's more like cooking it. He got his from Mainly Customs, could be Mainely I can't remember, in southern Maine. We also buried the insulated pex, which they sell, but it is in a roll so there are no joints. We run around 250' to the house and there is zero heat loss. He loses more in the plate exchanger in the house than in the underground line. He uses an exchanger because he didn't want to depressurize the house heating system, as the wood boiler is not under pressure.

[farmall h]

Say my, this topic has really turned full circle. Optionguru this was a good thread. Most folks seem to agree that questions should be asked regarding different brands. The efficiency of heat output and recovery "boils down" to what kind of wood your burning(soft/hard mix)(dry hardwood or semi green). Also the pipe and boiler insulation type: the cheap insulated pipe is wrapped in foiled insulation...the greater insulation factor is from the foam sprayed pipe enclosed in a flex pipe. The boiler should be spray foamed as well..NOT layered insulation. My Central Boiler recovery rate is fine. Damper opens @ 175 degree water and shuts at 185 degree water. Of course you can set it as low as 150 to 160. And a high of 185-195. There is a ten degree span. If you have to load your boiler three times a day...something is not right. -24 degrees the other morning, still only loaded it once at 9 pm. I have NEVER had to restart the boiler w/propane torch as it never goes out until I ignore it. True, you need to be home to tend your outdoor boiler or have a neighbor feed it if your on vacation....they will freeze!
Also, when the power goes out in the winter you need to plug your generator in otherwise your damper and circulators wont run.

[markcasper]

I have an Aqua therm, its about 10-11 years old. Two neighbors have had them and both don't now b/c of the stainless inside getting holes and leaking. They were only a year or two older than mine. I bought the eco-one kit a year ago, basically is a secondary blower and front door that blows air over and around the fire. It helped cut down on wood usage and it burns cleaner b/c of this sparks emit from the chimney which worry me when it gets dry. heating time was tremendously reduced adter putting the new door with blower on. Ash removal is a PINTA!! Especially when you burn pallets and all those nails.

[not_for_sale]

I agree with some and disagree with others. One thing I have to warn against. Don't buy a spray foamed boiler. Unless the just panels are foamed then it's ok. Central boiler has a host of problems with small cracks developing in the foam from expansion of the metal tanks. If it's spray foamed water will creep into those cracks and never leave them. That water then puts rust holes in the water jacket from the OUTSIDE. Thick fiberglass is way better here. Spray foam is great for the lines in the ground. But also you must make sure you do NOT get the pex lines in contact with ground water.

[not_for_sale]

Also, annual chemicals in the water is a must. So do not buy a used boiler unless you can do a water test.

[Shaun]

I have had a Johnson outdoor boiler for 7 seasons. This is not a gasification boiler and it does seem to eat wood. I heated with an indoor woodstove for years and do not miss the mess or worry. All I can say is that cutting the 15 cord of wood in the woods is a commitment. Never seemed to be a big deal before I had little ones, it does take some time. When you have a winter like this you think, I have enough and then a few more weeks of the zero degree stuff and your wood pile takes a beating. Just beware they use quite a lot of your time!!

[TheMapleMoose]

It like having cows. You can't leave it untended

[farmall h]

It like having cows. You can't leave it untended
Exactly! Almost like a full time job. ;)

[sweeteffinsyrup]

I someday hope to have an INDOOR dual fuel furnace. If you have easy access to your basement(exposed, bilco doors, garage stairs) they are great. Burn wood much hotter and more efficiently than outdoor ones and you can heat your water too. My grandfather(a retired self-employed HVAC guy)has had a Yukon for decades. If the burn chamber runs out of wood, it just switches to whatever your secondary fuel source is.

[Sundown]

I had a Hardy H3 at my last house for 12 years with no trouble at all. The Hardy is all 304 stainless inside and out. We sold that boiler with the house in July and built a new place. I put in a Hardy H5 as I am heating my 32x36 shop and 2000 sq ft log home with it. It keeps the shop at 55 and the house at 68 around the clock. I'm burning mostly green maple and it looks like I will go through about 10 full cords this year and we are currently at 59 days this winter that have fallen below zero. I fire at 6 AM and 5PM. I couldn't ask for a better heat system. Don't buy one if you don't like cutting the wood. I have plenty available on my property and have both a forwarder and pole skidder to do the heavy work. I find cutting wood to be great therapy, both physically and mentally!!

[325abn]

Having a forwarder and a skidder is the key to it being great therapy! :)

[PerryFamily]

I have a New Mac wood oil combination boiler. Love it. Too big for my house but the price was right.

[Bruce L]

I have been rereading this thread, looking to upgrade the boiler before another winter. It all boils down(pardon the pun) to two choices, I am either going with the Portage and Main gasification or Central Boiler gasification. Went to see a neighbor with a Central Boiler unit yesterday, he absolutely loves it, uses it year round for his hot water needs at milk house. He told me he loads it once daily now, spring and fall once every two days, and summer every four days. You mean you don't have to load it 4 times or more per day? I just need to find someone with the Portage and Main unit I am considering to see how it works and talk to them. Another thing to Consider is the Central Boiler dealer is maybe 40 minutes away, Portage and Main dealer one hour 45 minutes away