Is there is limit to the length of mainline for a sap puller?

[VT_K9]

Last year we added a sap puller from Goodrich Maple Farm. It is the smaller one (100) and has an advertised limit of approximately 400 taps. We changed a couple of 1/2" lines to 3/4" otherwise left our bush set up for gravity due to time and the plan to do some cutting the following summer. I believe we had a good improvement as the runs seemed to be more periodic versus daily every day (like the old times). We made 25 gallons whereas in the old times it would range from 19-38 gallons except 2010 when we were skunked.

Over this past summer I cut out several Hemlock which opened the area to a much needed improvement of sunlight. I also had a few trees I was not ready to harvest yet so I trimmed the branches as high as my gas pruner would allow (about 14' or so) and this seem to bring a lot of sunlight into the lower areas.

We have made a few changes our pipelines. We have a 600' run of 1" mainline. Then a few lateral runs of 3/4" lines. The goal is to keep the taps of 5-7 taps per 5/16" run with a maximum distance of 100' (most will be 40-50'). We eliminated all 1/2" pipeline. As I realized we had a couple of 50-100' lengths of 3/4" line I figured we could tap a few trees we never tapped in the past. Our total number of tapes before was about 275. I am figuring a rough estimate of 325 taps when finished and if I had the others maybe 350. We have the 3/4" pipe and 5/16" line so there is no additional expenses.

My concerns are the limits of the sap sucker with all the 1" (600') and 3/4" (probably 1000-1200'). I was hoping that the build up of max suction would just take a little longer, but the system would maximize the transfer of the suction to the 5/16" line and ultimately the taps.

We are looking to be ready this thursday or sunday (2/13 or 2/16) and would like to have all the mainline and sap lines run. Let me know what you think about the maximum length of mainline. The slopes are not a concern. There are a couple of 3-6% grade, but most have a little more available.

Thanks,

Mike

[DaveB]

I use a similar device on a section of my woods (a Bosworth pump) and I would think that it should be OK if the system is tight. It may take longer to build up a high vacuum but it's just a matter of time. Someone might have more experience or a different opinion - mine is limited to about 500' and a total of about 250' of lateral lines.

[BAP]

Once you get the vacuum built up in the extra line, it should act like a vacuum reservoir. This is providing everything is tight.

[Four D Acre Farms]

vacuum is vacuum Providing there are no leaks the amount of volume you have in the lines is related to how long it will take the pump to draw down the system the more lines the longer the time but the key here is just as others have said it cant have leaks!!!! hope you have a great season. I do use these pumps on my woods as well they are limited to the number of taps depending on the pump you have

[VT_K9]

I have been out in the woods the last couple of days working on the lines. As noted I am changing them from 18-22 or so on a long run over to the 5-7 (maybe a couple less to a couple more as a last resort). I am also using the newer Lapierre end fitting and ring (works pretty slick I might add). As I move fittings I have read here about using hot water to remove the tubing. Most of the lines are about 4 years old so I want to reuse as much as I can. I inspect the barbs for our old style of reusing (cutting the pipe off) and toss them. I put up a couple of couplings in the past and I am removing those when I am running the new tap pattern. So far I have re-run about 10 laterals, re-used about 15 fittings, and tossed about 25 fittings. I am pretty comfortable where things are and will double check once the sap sucker is turned on.

Thanks for the replies.

Mike

[DrTimPerkins]

My concerns are the limits of the sap sucker with all the 1" (600') and 3/4" (probably 1000-1200'). I was hoping that the build up of max suction would just take a little longer, but the system would maximize the transfer of the suction to the 5/16" line and ultimately the taps.

While there will be some line loss due to friction, that is probably not the biggest issue. Sap Pullers (a Sap Sucker is a different type of pump) move relatively little CFM (they are a liquid pump), but as long as you keep things incredibly tight, you should get good vacuum on a closed system. While the pump is rated for 400 taps max, as you approach that number of taps, you will probably experience lower vacuum levels, especially during sap runs. This is because the trees are producing gases. The warmer it gets, the more gases the tree makes. To achieve good vacuum, the pump must remove these gases. A Sap Puller just can't do this as efficiently as other pumps, but it does have other advantages, especially for smaller producers.

[VT_K9]

Dr. Perkins,

Thank you for the reply. One of the challenges we face is the lack of electricity at our sugar house. We have to run a generator to have power. Also our operation is family based and some extra for friends. There are no plans for a change therefore the expense of a full vacuum system is not a choice. It was not until I found the extra 75' of 3/4" pipe that I realized I could add maybe 10-15 taps. With the materials on hand to do this I realized how long our 3/4" and 1" lines are. I did not want to gain 15 taps only to loose efficiency (backfire).

Thanks,

Mike

Also last year while checking the lines after the first run or two I found several leaks I would have never discovered without the sap sucker (or vacuum). I plan to check all lines and fittings this year for each run early on and then as I can as the season continues.

[DrTimPerkins]

Also last year while checking the lines after the first run or two I found several leaks I would have never discovered without the sap sucker (or vacuum). I plan to check all lines and fittings this year for each run early on and then as I can as the season continues.

That is really the key thing with vacuum, especially with a Sap Puller. They are absolutely fine machines, and a decent way to get into vacuum relatively inexpensively. You just need to realize the limitations of the system (low CFM, drop in vacuum when trees are producing gases, avoid freezing sap in gasket) and either address them or live with them.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

on my larger bush prob have close to a 1000' 3/4 main line works very well. like dr. tim said "no comment" oh wait different thread, must be kept very tight no vac leaks.

[VT_K9]

While doing the final mainline setup today I found that I had 7 couplings on one 3/4" line which was approximately 300 feet long. This was put up as a pump line years ago and then turned into a mainline lateral last year. I'm going to replace this with a single run this week week before hooking it into the 1" mainline and taping the trees on the run. I figure now is the more convenient time to replace all of those joints and once in place it should not be changed for many years. I am not sure if this is a case of addiction, an attempt for perfection, or a healthy disease. It's a lot of work, but rewarding.

Mike

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

While doing the final mainline setup today I found that I had 7 couplings on one 3/4" line which was approximately 300 feet long. This was put up as a pump line years ago and then turned into a mainline lateral last year. I'm going to replace this with a single run this week week before hooking it into the 1" mainline and taping the trees on the run. I figure now is the more convenient time to replace all of those joints and once in place it should not be changed for many years. I am not sure if this is a case of addiction, an attempt for perfection, or a healthy disease. It's a lot of work, but rewarding.

Mike
I had some old water pipe main line from when i first started boiling, circa 2002. It didnt matter how many hose clamps I installed on each coupling you could here vacuum leaks which is the reason I ran all new main line this year. With the vacuum leaks im talking about I ran around 13" at the pump. On our new bush last year we wold get 23=24" at times at the pump 18-20" up in the woods.

[Quabbin Hill Farms]

Dr Perkins i have a Sap Puller that I am having a problem with. Mine is on about 1400' of 3/4 mainline and about 250 taps. I started it yesterday to test things out but couldn't seem to get much vacum only about -17 " this unit did better last year.
The problem was could not pull sap from the first saddle about 300' from the pump the laterals were full I took off the line and had nothing. Also the vacum gauge normally pulses back and forth between pump strokes was sitting constant at the -17". Would an ice blockage cause the gauge to act like that? Thats all I can think would be blocking it. This line also has an uphill rise in it due to the lay of the land before it levels off to the pump. Its about a 6' rise over 100' of line every where else on the line is downhill or level. Will this effect how the diaphram pumps performs?

Thanks

[VT_K9]

Update 3/10:
The mainlines are done. The taps are in (except one area with about 30 taps). I started the pump this past Friday afternoon. After 1 hour I had 0" vacuum at the pump and the same at another point (the highest point in elevation and after 300' 1" and 400' 3/4" line). I scrambled like made trying to find any major leak. I found a 3/"4 end plug which sounded like it was leaking (a check of it the next day showed no sign of leaking). I could hear what I thought was leak, but it was nearly pitch black outside now.

Saturday morning I hit the woods at about 0900 and fired up the sap puller (a little early but wanted to find the leaks). I started at the pump and worked my way up the mainline and each mainline lateral. I decided to try to tighten every hose clamp (they all took a couple of turns). I put my ear to every saddle (about 40 of them) and never detected a leak. I began to walk every sap line lateral. OH there's the leak I heard the previous night. An old (5-10 yrs...I know) tap was broken. I replaced it and checked my gauges....5" of vacuum. Several laterals later I found another old tap broken. I also began to notice wet spots near most every old tap on the tree (I would call it leaking around the tap). I planned on replacing all taps for the next season. I began that process now. I found two other broken taps in the process and still have another 50-70 taps to replace. I checked the vacuum and found 15" at both gauges.

Sunday we started the sap puller up. After awhile it was back to 15". At the end of the day when it was a little warmer the vacuum gauge was up to about 24"....perfect. I am still going to replace the taps, but they are not as high of a priority. Time to finish prepping the sugar house.

Thanks for all the input.

Mike