honda powered delaval issues

[PerryFamily]

Fired up one of my new to me pumps before I put it in the woods.

The engine wouldn't start with the belts on the pump. I removed the belts and it fired right up. It also wouldn't run on an idle till warm.

Is this normal? It was cold today but ran very well once warmed up.

[maple flats]

Something needs adjusting. I have my pumps powered by gas and on each I made the motor mount to pivot with the pivot point about 3" off the base end towards the pump head (the motor weight tensions the belt). To start I choke the motor, lift a little on the motor and pull the rope. Starts 1st pull about 90% of the time and the 2nd time most the rest of the time. Then, still lifting the motor so the belt slips I turn the choke off and let the motor down to engage slowly. It took far longer to describe than to do it. Only takes 3-5 seconds generally.

[grumpy]

yea this is normal, it gets easier as the season goes on with warmer weather. daves idea is good, so is any sort of tensioning pulley system. you can also start the engine with belts off and then slip them on as the engine warms up, but that's kinda dangerous and maybe not the best approach

[PerryFamily]

Yea I was thinking about some type of device to engage the belts once the engine was warm. Once it was warm it ran and started fine. The engine had not been run since last season and maybe the carb is gummed up. Gonna replace the plug tomorrow. The pump could have been gummed up too.

[lpakiz]

I also have to slip the belt off to get it to start. I let it warm up maybe a minute, then shut it back off. Roll the belt on and give it a pull. Then it will haul the load, although I still need quite a bit of choke, at least another minute. I don't mind this, it seems the engine is running efficiently and with the lowest gas consumption.
I would NOT install the belt with the engine running. Fingers could/will get caught sooner or later.

[maple flats]

My first season with my pump I started by removing the belt and then once running I lifted the motor on it's pivot pin, put the belt on the pump pulley and then slid it onto the engine pulley. I soon discovered I could start it with the belt on by just tilting the motor to allow the belt to slip.
On my larger pump, where I needed 2 drive belts (this vacuum system was added a year after the one with a single belt, on a new bush) I never put the belts on with the engine running. On rare occasions when that one doesn't start on the tilting motor method, I remove the belts, warm the engine, shut down, put belts on and then start using the tilt method.

[BreezyHill]

Guys, take a look around at the old farmers and blue collar workers that are in their 60 and higher. Ever notice how many are nicknamed stubby, lefty, righty, gimp, how do you think they got those names?
You don't get off the tractor with the pto on.
You dont stick any body parts near a running pulley.
pulleys have guards for a reason.

Women never get near a spinning sharft or pulley or belt with long hair.

Please lets think about safety for a moment. IF may seem ok at the time but I can show you pics of an arm that got stuck in a gear set because the guy was standing on the wrong side of a mixer-grinder and reached across the unit and his coat got caught by a spinning shaft. It sucked his arm into the gears and tore the flesh off his upper arm. You could see his elbow joint bones, tendons, muscle...everything. It took 20 minutes and finally a pipe wrench to back his arm out of the gears.

He nearly bleed to death.

He now has a grease tattoo of the teeth of the gears as it walked up his arm.

So please remember...it is hard to type when missing fingers...it is even harder to read a post from a guy missing fingers!

Take the time to make a pulley guard.

[lpakiz]

Yep, good advice, Ben.
Larry AKA 9 1/2

[BreezyHill]

Quick Joke:
Little Girl says to her mom as the family is sitting on the porch enjoying a summer sun set,
Mommy why did you name me Rose?
Well when you were a baby I was picking roses for the breakfast table and one fell on your forehead and you just lay there quietly. So I named you Rose.

The second daughter asked, mommy why did you name me butter cup?

Well when you were a baby we were out rounding up the cows and a I set you down to check on a cow calving and I had dropped a handful of buttercups on you and you just lay there so quietly; so I named you butter cup.

Suddenly you could hear this load noise from the young son, and you could not understand anything he was saying.

The mother turned to him and said.
Shut up Cinder Block!
LOL

Safety is no accident. It must be practiced.

[maple maniac65]

Fired up one of my new to me pumps before I put it in the woods.

The engine wouldn't start with the belts on the pump. I removed the belts and it fired right up. It also wouldn't run on an idle till warm.

Is this normal? It was cold today but ran very well once warmed up.

I just run a dump valve before the releaser and open it up when starting the motor. I leave it open until until the motor runs evenly. This is a 11hp Honda on a 35 cfm pump with double belts.. It is started many times when the temp is around 20 and I just let it run because I have to go to work.

[BreezyHill]

You guys do know about adding stabilizer to the fuel...the ethanol is hell on these units.

A good idea is to buy the gas that is ethanol free, costs a bit more but is worth every cent for running in saws, pump motors, atvs, sleds, rototillers, etc.

Filling the tanks from a can with a screen in the filler neck will keep ice out of the tank.

I love the dump valve idea...Thanks for Sharing!

[farmall h]

Check to be sure you have the correct grade engine oil. Also, if it new you may have to change the "break in" oil anyway.

[PerryFamily]

Yes a oil change is needed for sure. I usually run synthetic in my small engines.
The second unit seems to start and run fine.
Both were test run and checked for leaks. So far so good.
One has a large leader type moisture trap, the other has a stainless steel dairy style with the ball. Any issues with the dairy style?

[BreezyHill]

The dairy style is more efficient at trapping condensation as it has better heat distribution properties than a plastic unit. only issue with the ball style is when the trap is full the pump will not pull any air and will heat up more unless you have a shut off switch or a regulator set for high vac.

[PerryFamily]

Well....so far I am fairly discouraged with both setups.
Neither will start with the belts on in the morning.
Both seem to be unable to run at low engine speeds.
They seem to be working properly when I leave and are not upon return.Way too much babysitting.

[BreezyHill]

You really should not have to wtch them at all. What is happening...motor issue or pump issue?

[PerryFamily]

Well...On unit #1 there are a few issues:
With the belts off the engine starts and runs fine. I have yet to be able to start it with the belts on. I have to actually slip the belts on while running ( I know I don't need a lecture ). The other day there was no Vac at all. I called the dairy guy, he thought the vanes were stuck. A diesel fuel oil flood and 1/2 hr later was running fine. Once running it seems ok it is just getting it there. I have started removing a manifold end plate from the releaser to start it. It helps but still a PITA. This unit idles down pretty well and ran 22" all weekend with cool oil.

On unit # 2:

Same issue as above but this one wont idle down very far before the vac load on the engine kills it. My buddy thinks its a weak engine. Consequently with it well above idle it chews up fuel wicked.

I guess once running, the seem ok but being unable to idle down the chew fuel and the starting up is terrible. But they did run 22" all weekend and the oil was still cool in the reclaimer. Also I have changed nothing since I purchased them from the previous owner.

[BAP]

Have you tried spinning the vacuum pumps over by hand with the belts off? They should spin freely and keep spinning a few turns after you stop turning them. If they don't, then pull them apart and clean them up good including the vanes and check that the bearings spin freely. Any resistance will taking more power to run. The motor that doesn't run well, sounds like the carburetor needs taking apart and a good cleaning. Also, is the engine oil new? Is it too heavy of a weight for this time of year? Is the spark plug new? If not try a new one gapped properly and I would stay away from Champion Plugs they are cheap junk nowadays.

[BreezyHill]

Hondas usually are a good starting motor.

I would pull the carb and see if there is any water in the boil. If so then see needs a total cleaning as it is likely that you have a jet that is partially plugged.

I like Bosch plugs...they are a little more price but they usually will last in our sleds two to three seasons.

Fuel don't buy a large tank full at a time. With out stabilizer in it it is good for 14 days. Past that the ethanol takes on to mush water and you will have issues.

If there was fuel in the tanks when you bought them. Drain it all and start new. The old idea of burn off the old and then add new is fine for gas but not this stuff we have now.

If you have a station that sells ethonal free buy it...worth every penny if you have to clean a carb in mid season. I run it for the last tank of the season. I don't like draining carbs as the gaskets dry out and cause issues the next season; but leaving the ethanol in is a problem too.

I assume the pumps spin freely. If not then they likely need a good cleaning and possible a bearing and bushing depending on the unit you have.

A dump valve up close to the pump and before the check valve is a great tool. This allows a spot to flood with oil, and a way to relieve all vacuum on the unit until the motor warms up.

You may need to check the compression on the motor. If it is under 125 it will start hard. Under 100 usually wont start with out a lot of effort.

Compression gauges are easy to use...just screw in the correct adapter into the spark plug hole and pull over the motor two to three times.

Let me know what the compression is and we will go from there.

Ben

[PerryFamily]

Breezy- I talked to a good small engine guy and he thinks They need a tune up / cleaning as well. Gonna drain the bowls and clean them, put new plugs and change the oil.
Will try that first.
His comparison was to a wood splitter....they start cold while turning a hydraulic pump and oil right? So the Honda should start while turning the pump without a load.

[BreezyHill]

That is correct...a wood splitter will be very close except that the hydraulic pump will not be under load when not moving the ram. If the pump has to start pulling vac immediately that will be a load.

Good Luck and remember carb cleaner is cheap compared to a visit to the motor man!

also a tip cleaner for a torch work really good to clan out plugged ports in the carb. Dontfile on the sides just spray and clean them.

[PerryFamily]

In the last week of the season I have finally figured these pumps out!
1st) Spun shaft in the pump Harrell. Welded it up and runs smooth quiet, cool and builds wicked good vacuum. Needs a larger gas tank.
2 nd) Found a faulty low oil switch on the Honda motor. Unplugged it and has been running steady ever since.
I guess I will be better prepared for next year. Priority is to get electricity to both pumps for next year.

[schmidt's]

What size pulley are you running on the motors? Could you go down 1/2" to an 1" yes you may need a little more throttle but they will start and run easier. All ours are in 2.5" to 3.5" range on the motors and all start fine. We have piston and rotary dairy pumps(surge).

[BreezyHill]

The piston pump will start much easier and not have the resistance as quickly as a rotary pump. The installation of a small stall cock...the connection of the milker to the vacuum line, having a quarter turn valve, will release all resistance of vacuum until the motor gets warmed up and thus make starting much easier.

Tending to a gas motor is a chore that is less than fun, but for some it is the only solution that is feasible.

Glad to hear that you were on the learning curve Perry! Hope the season was good to you!

[PerryFamily]

Not sure what the puppy size is.
Breezy- I think another problem is that my exhaust goes straight up for 2' before it ends up going in the reclaimer. I put the oil right to this pump. When it shuts off the oil runs back down to the oil cools and pools in the pump making if hard to overcome that to start.

[BreezyHill]

Yes that is a design flaw. On a dairy pump like the Alamo series the reclaimer is directly above the pump. This is fine for a dairy vac level...NOT for maple and especially high vac. Low vac on maple say 15"- 21" it would work. Higher than 21" and you will have such a small amount of air movement that the will rapidly condensate in the pipe and flood the pump. The lower vac has more air moving thru the pump that will blow the oil and condensation to the reclaimer.

This am I drained 3 gallons of water from the reclaimer. For the past week. This is far more than for the previous four weeks together. The warm weather will do this. and in the am the reclaimer was often frozen and at night I forgot.

Reposition the reclaimer so that the reclaimer is next to the pump or use a plastic pipe to vent the pump to the reclaimer. I use plastic as it will not cool the exhausted prior to the reclaimer and send moisture back to the pump. Alamo does use a rubber flex connection to the reclaimer and it isn't a big issue since the reclaimer is the oil reservoir but it can make startup a little more difficult. I only go up 6 inches and then straight to the reclaimer. Had to raise the pump to achieve this but it made for better air flow from my fan across the pump and motor.

If your pump is a D 75 then there is a 1/8" pipe plug under the oil level side that could be connected to the reclaimer to drain the moisture from the pump to the reclaimer and have one clear vacuum hose on the reclaimer base with a stall cock valve to easily drain the water if any is in the clear hose. This will also relieve the oil backup in the pump.

If it is a 74 or 76 then there is no drain unless you put a tee off a close nipple on the exhaust port. Plumb the tee top to the reclaimer and any oil will drain to the reclaimer off the tee bottom. ...with any moisture.

There is an endless way of fixing these minor problems. Since you successfully welded the shaft I have no doubt that you can over come this minor design flaw. Feel free to ask if you need any suggestions or pointers.