Question on isopropyl barrels

[paraord]

Hey guys, I am going to try making maple syrup for the first time on my property. I have a good 30 trees that are easily well larger than my arms can hug, and I am always looking for a new project to try.

I have free access to about a dozen 55 gallon HPDE #2 plastic blue barrels. Im sure I wont need that many as I am not going to tap ALL those trees.
They had once previously held isopropyl, rubbing alcohol. The question I have is it ok for sap storage?
I have read mixed things on it. HDPE is a food grade (and highest rated from what I can gather). With going out and buying some Food grade 55 gallon drums around here you never REALLY know whats been in them, just that they are blue and the type of plastic they call out on them. I dont believe there are any soda places etc to get some from to know first hand what was in them previously.
Could I just hot water/soap a few times and flush them out and be OK for short term storage of my sap until I boil it off?

Thanks guys,
Andrew

[WESTMAPLES]

I think the HPDE #2 barrels are the non-reuseable ones the blue barrels that I bought brand new had a HDPE FG fork/knife clearly on the top of the barrels look at other posts this topic has been beaten to death in other threads

[BreezyHill]

That is a great question. To my knowledge iso is still not legal for us as a line clear in the US. In Canada it is approved. Vt has suggested to stay away, last I heard , until further studies have been made.
The alcohol would boil off at about 170- 175 degrees soI don't see any way that it could be in our finished product.

Hopefully Dr Tim will chime in on this question for you Andrew.

Another option is at your local super market the 3-5 gallon containers from cake frosting, 5 gallon veg oil containers at many restaurants. Soap and hot water cleans them up quick and easy. I am saving our oil jugs from our feed mill for 4-H.

Good Luck!

Ben

[happy thoughts]

NO do NOT use these! Isopropyl is poisonous if ingested and you have no idea what may have been absorbed into the plastic and may leach back into your sap. That will then be concentrated many times over by the time it's syrup. When reusing a container you want to make sure it was only used for food

Secondly, HDPE alone does not signify food grade. You can't tell food grade just from the recycling number. Even a new hdpe container may contain dyes or mold releasers that would make it unacceptable for food use.

[WESTMAPLES]

well said happy thoughts

[paraord]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I figured I would ask the experts as I am new to this whole realm, sorry if this has been beaten to death. I searched specifically for isopropyl and couldnt find a whole lot anywhere. I will keep looking for FG barrels that only housed something I wouldnt mind taking a bite of so to speak.

I didnt even think of the mold releasers happy thoughts, they have to get that barrel out of the mold somehow, and If it didnt specifically call for it I am sure they would use the cheaper non-food grade stuff.
Thats interesting to know a
bout where its approved to use to clear lines. Obviously if you did that it wouldnt be sitting soaking for an undetermined amount of time.

Thanks again everyone!

[BreezyHill]

paraord,
Actually the design of the treatment is to sit all season with a sealed cap on the spout so that the part of the spout that enters the tree is "decontaminated". There is "no concern" since the alcohol is very volatile and will evaporate immediately on be exposed to the air.

Here is a little experiment for you. Take a drop of rubbing alcohol and put it on your wrist area. Note the immediate coolness that you feel. This is the alcohol evaporating and taking heat energy away. That is with your body at 99 degrees or so. Also note how fast that drop has totally evaporated. Now the next time you bottle of some syrup take and place a drop on the outside of the syrup bottle. The bottle should be around 180 degrees. Note how fast it evaps now. Just imagine a drop at 215 degrees...you cant even blink your eyes that fast. Guess what painter use to clean surfaces that need to be perfectly clean for paint to stick 100%..it is a simple product that will evaporate quickly and leave no residue...You guess it... isopropyl alcohol.

Now if you want to really be freaked out. Check back at what was in those little white pills we were recommended to put into the trees with our tap to keep the hole clean and health. Yup we used them for a couple years but noticed the trees were not healing well anymore, so we stopped using them a few years later...you guess it...they were not good at all.

So in the words of the late great Paul Harvey...Now you know the rest of the story...So be careful...very carefully as to how far you delve into the production of many of the food packaging, processing, and handling equipment that is used in the world today. Before you know it you will be back to the victory garden and canning your own vegetables, have a hand full of hens in the back yard and growing your own cereal grains.

We all make a great gourmet product and need to realize that what we do and how we do it needs to meet and uphold the gourmet standard.

[happy thoughts]

But what about denaturing agents that may have been added, breezy? Those are often purposely bad tasting ingredients so no one is tempted to drink them. Can you guarantee that those don't remain and will not impart flavor? Again, isopropyl alcohol itself is NOT a food and is toxic even in fairly small doses. To each his own but there is no way I would recommend using them. I would no sooner use them than I would use a recycled gas can to collect sap.

[DrTimPerkins]

That is a great question. To my knowledge iso is still not legal for us as a line clear in the US. In Canada it is approved. Vt has suggested to stay away, last I heard , until further studies have been made.
The alcohol would boil off at about 170- 175 degrees soI don't see any way that it could be in our finished product.

That is correct. Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) is not an approved sanitizer for maple use in the U.S. It would need to be registered with the EPA as such. There are still questions remaining about its efficacy. Hopefully we'll have that cleared up in a few years with a joint project being done at Cornell and UVM.

The issue (at least for me personally) is not so much that IPA itself will end up in the food, but what it might interact with various components of the collection and processing systems to produce other compounds. We know for certain that IPA is not terribly compatible with PVC, Tygon (milk hose) or plexiglass.

I'm not so sure that there is currently any IPA that is considered "food-grade" in the U.S. To my knowledge, there is only one allowed use in food itself (sprayed on pizza crust).

[DrTimPerkins]

Actually the design of the treatment is to sit all season with a sealed cap on the spout so that the part of the spout that enters the tree is "decontaminated". There is "no concern" since the alcohol is very volatile and will evaporate immediately on be exposed to the air.

This assumes two things:
1) that the alcohol (IPA) is effective at killing what is in the tubing and on the spout and
2) that the IPA doesn't interact with any other components of the tubing system to produce unwanted compounds.

To the first point, there is research (out of Canada) that IPA is effective in reducing microorganisms in tubing systems. Other research (in the U.S.) indicates that it is either not, or is modestly effective. For sure as heck it doesn't kill spores -- that much is very well known. As you suggest, the intended way to use it is to allow the fumes (vapors) to remain in the tubing for continued killing action. This approach has been shown to be effective on one microbial species that does occur in tubing. However there are over 50 different types of things that will grow in tubing. Secondly, I've not found anything to suggest that IPA is a "gas-phase" sanitizer (like chlorine gas, bromine gas, or ozone) in any other research or industry or in the scientific literature.

To the second point, this has been largely ignored. But it is a valid concern (see attached photo -- top image is regular milkhose, bottom is milkhouse after soaking in IPA ). A while after IPA was suggested as a tubing cleaner, there was a notice placed on maple websites warning people not to let IPA come in contact with releasers.

I believe we should know first whether or not IPA is an effective sanitizer and secondly how IPA interacts with tubing system components BEFORE we suggest it for use.

8672

Of course there are other concerns for IPA, the main one being that it is rather flammable.

Bottom line.....these new systems with the spout and cap (to contain the IPA fumes) haven't been out long enough for there to be any testing and confirmation on whether or not they work. We are doing the research on them here at UVM PMRC now, but it'll take a while before we know for certain.

[BlueberryHill]

Yummy, IPA pizza crust!! Where can I get me some of that?

Just throw a match in the drum, it will burn off all the IPA.

Disclaimer: Don't really do that.

[happy thoughts]

This assumes two things: .....

Your replies are always appreciated Dr Tim :) but I'm not sure you've addressed this posters question about reusing barrels that contained isopropyl alcohol. I believe they are asking about their suitability for sap storage.

[DrTimPerkins]

Your replies are always appreciated Dr Tim :) but I'm not sure you've addressed this posters question about reusing barrels that contained isopropyl alcohol. I believe they are asking about their suitability for sap storage.

Yes, I know I danced around the issue some. :) Since you pressed me about it, I'd have to say....was the IPA "food-grade"?

[happy thoughts]

Thanks Dr Tim. I can live with that answer:) To be honest, I wasn't aware that isopropyl alcohol could come in food grade. The term "rubbing alcohol" still implies to me that it's intended for topical use. I hope the OP checks further into this.

[paraord]

Im OK with finding something else if thats the verdict. as far as food grade, no i doubt it. here is the ingredients right from the Kester label, just in case everyone was wondering. For now I have pretty much abandon using these.

CAS Ingredients
67-63-0 Propan-2-ol
50-01-1 guanadine hydrochloride
79-14-1 glycolic acid
56-81-5 glycerol


health 1 flammability 3 reactivity 0


the other one thats there only lists one ingredient, also from kester.
67-63-0 Propan-2-ol



Hahaha Blueberry Hill, I like your outside the box thinking to quick cleaning