Spiles and bacteria

[Run Forest Run!]

I hang buckets on 5/16 blue spiles and 7/16 cast aluminum spiles. The spiles are $2-$3 a piece. I was wondering if there are any members (who also use buckets on gravity) who replace similar spiles each year to eliminate the issue of bacteria build-up. I diligently wash and disinfect all of my spiles at the end of the season, but from what I've read on here, that doesn't get rid of all of the bacterial film.

It wouldn't be cheap to buy all new ones every year, but I'm willing to consider it if some of you have bit the bullet and reaped the rewards as a result.

Thoughts?

[BreezyHill]

I was told by a Dept of Health person to use 10% Clorox, we have been using a 20% solution. It worked for us when we did buckets and now we wash everything with that solution. No film to grow here. I do change the spouts to new seasonal spouts and drops every three years just to keep the production up. Last season was .47 g/ tap and this season I want to hit .5gallons/ tap.

A few minutes soak and a good brushing and back thru the solution and then a good rinse and you should be fine. You could get your school science teacher to do a culture and grow it for the class. That will really tell ya. Do one cleaned and a none cleaned and a new one. The new one just might scare you though.

[PerryW]

I have never heard of anyone replacing metal bucket spots. Most of mine are over 50 years old.

[happy thoughts]

I hang buckets on 5/16 blue spiles and 7/16 cast aluminum spiles. The spiles are $2-$3 a piece. I was wondering if there are any members (who also use buckets on gravity) who replace similar spiles each year to eliminate the issue of bacteria build-up. I diligently wash and disinfect all of my spiles at the end of the season, but from what I've read on here, that doesn't get rid of all of the bacterial film.

It wouldn't be cheap to buy all new ones every year, but I'm willing to consider it if some of you have bit the bullet and reaped the rewards as a result.

Thoughts?

Hi Karen, nice to see you back :) Re metal spouts, I reuse my 7/16 SS spouts for hanging buckets. They are the tapered rolled kind that can be easily cleaned with a small diameter brush. At tapping time they get boiled for 15 minutes in a covered pan. You could probably use pipe cleaners in a pinch to clean the inside of your aluminum ones. I would not use bleach on stainless or aluminum. Bleach will darken the aluminum and may corrode stainless.

I only use plastic spouts once then replace them. I don't use that many each year and they are cheap enough.

Have a great year!

[DrTimPerkins]

Most metal bucket spouts are made to be cleaned and reused. Cleaning with bleach is OK, but please use the correct dilution and RINSE well immediately afterward and then allow them to dry. I've seen several buckets of what were decent spouts to start with that had been put into the bucket with bleach-water and left in the corner of the sugarhouse to soak. Within a fairly short time (weeks) it can become one hunk of rusted metal that is destined for the garbage pile.

[Run Forest Run!]

Thanks so much for your reply Dr. Tim. In the past I have cleaned my metal spouts exactly as you outlined, so I feel good about reusing them. Should I replace my blue 5/16 plastic spiles each year or am I OK using the same cleaning method as the metal spouts?

[Big_Eddy]

I tap buckets only. I use spouts until they break.

I'm gradually swapping out my 7/16" metal spouts for the plastic 5/16" spouts, although I'm not 100% convinced they work as well for buckets. I will be doing more comparison testing this year. Recall this thread from last year http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?19721-Bucket-spouts&p=215913#post215913

I rinse them all off after the season, and before tapping I wash them well with dish soap, then a weak javex rinse followed by a double rinse with fresh water.

I think the benefits of annual replacement are primarily associated with vaccuum systems that are essentially closed to the atmosphere.

Plus for me as a hobbyiest with more trees than time, I wouldn't notice a minor difference in sap output. If I need more sap - I'll tap more trees.

[DrTimPerkins]

Should I replace my blue 5/16 plastic spiles each year or am I OK using the same cleaning method as the metal spouts?

You can reuse them after cleaning, although they will likely produce slightly less sap than replacing them annually. Backflow contamination of tapholes is more of an issue with tubing, and especially with tubing on vacuum. However you do want to keep equipment, especially spouts, as clean as possible since it will help improve sap yield.

[Run Forest Run!]

Thanks for setting my mind at ease. I'm very diligent with the cleaning of my spouts (I even use a teeny tiny bottle brush) and if I can plan on reusing them year after year I'm happy to hear that. Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions. It never occured to me that the vacuum method and the bucket method would pose differing bacterial concerns regarding spile re-use.


You can reuse them after cleaning, although they will likely produce slightly less sap than replacing them annually. Backflow contamination of tapholes is more of an issue with tubing, and especially with tubing on vacuum. However you do want to keep equipment, especially spouts, as clean as possible since it will help improve sap yield.

[kmaloy]

If you boil your taps what bacteria could survive that? How is a new spile more sanitary than a sterilized one?If I sold spiles I would suggest replacing every year too.

[DrTimPerkins]

If you boil your taps what bacteria could survive that? How is a new spile more sanitary than a sterilized one?If I sold spiles I would suggest replacing every year too.

Not many.....but some microorganisms could survive. Hospitals do not boil instruments any longer to sterilize....they autoclave (steam heat and pressure) them, or simply replace them.

More likely, spores can survive (many of the things growing in sap form spores) far more insult than the microorganism can themselves. You can drop contaminated spouts in isopropyl alcohol for hours and then fish them out and find viable spores on them.

With plastic spouts, small imperfections are present or can form after use. These provide some amount of refugia from different types of cleaning, or the microorganisms make their own "safe" spots with biofilms.

Surprisingly, research (and not by those selling spouts) has shown that attempts to "sterilize" (I really dislike that word because most people use it improperly....sanitize is more appropriate) spouts by boiling have not been as successful as you might think. Yes....it can improve the situation....but no...it does not sterilize the spout, and without extreme efforts, does not bring a used spout back to the same level of performance (in terms of yield) as a new spout. Either way though....the economics of cleaning a plastic spout are pretty much the same as replacing with a new plastic spout. Doing both (cleaning the dropline and replacing with a new spout) doesn't provide any measurable amount of additional benefit as simply replacement with a new spout.

[kmaloy]

If you boil your taps what bacteria could survive that? How is a new spile more sanitary than a sterilized one?If I sold spiles I would suggest replacing every year too. my comment on sanitizing by boiling is from my having all metal spiles. With plastic in the .25¢ to 35¢ range I can understand the economic s of new.

[Ausable]

Hmmmmmm! Spiles.... Yep! I will have to change my ways on that issue. Sometime I wonder why my Maple Syrup is so darn good with all the things I do wrong and have to deal with. Snow, Ice, Rain, Mud, Poop from Deer, Rabbits, Birds Squirrels etc., Rodents chewing on tubing, Spores and Bacteria just waiting for the chance to attack the sugars in the sap and syrup, Pails and tubes must be clean, clean and rinse evaporator, feed tank, storage barrels and tanks, transfer pumps and hoses, assorted pails and buckets and lids, stainless pots and lids, Hydrometers and test cup, spoons and scoops, Oh! and canning jars, rings, lids, bottles, caps etc. etc. etc. - All of this is done under fairly primitive conditions and done quite well by my poor standards. LOL - Now I'm told my Spiles are dirty - dirty - dirty even if cleaned by Hospital Standards. ------Well------Guess I'm back to doing the best I can do and hope my Maple Syrup continues to stay so darn good.........lol ----Mike in Michigan----

[RC Maple]

Most metal bucket spouts are made to be cleaned and reused. Cleaning with bleach is OK, but please use the correct dilution and RINSE well immediately afterward and then allow them to dry. I've seen several buckets of what were decent spouts to start with that had been put into the bucket with bleach-water and left in the corner of the sugarhouse to soak. Within a fairly short time (weeks) it can become one hunk of rusted metal that is destined for the garbage pile.

I would like to do the best job I can of using clean spiles. This is only my third season and all of my spiles were bought new. I boiled them before their first use and after the season was over as well. Above it says to use the correct dilution - what ratio is that? Is that the best way to go? I had planned to boil my taps again before use this year but will use a bleach solution as well if that would be better. What is the best way to clean my 5/16 taps before and after season?

[BreezyHill]

Mike, I feel your frustration as do a lot more of us. But, remember we are talking in reference to getting more production from the tree over the season. Contamination of the tap hole weather it be from the spout or from the person blowing out the hole to remove chips will negatively affect production.

Besides who has not had a meal or two from the old cast iron skillet. Yes that's the one...gram's that was never washed just wiped out. Imagine the bacteria in that, but we are all here, to fondly remember those days.

Point number two: It really doesn't matter what we do this season, in a few years we will be shown that it was wrong and people cant believe we lived thru it. LOL

But seriously how many of us used those little white pills on the recommendation of the "experts".

All you can do is make the best product you can with your knowledge at the time of safe production standards. Using a 10% bleach solution to clean and then rinse has been around longer than I have. Still works well. Boiling cant hurt unless you reach in the hot pot. So have at it and and please enjoy the season! that is if it ever gets here. LOL

Ben

[happy thoughts]

Hmmmmmm! Spiles.... Yep! I will have to change my ways on that issue. Sometime I wonder why my Maple Syrup is so darn good with all the things I do wrong and have to deal with. Snow, Ice, Rain, Mud, Poop from Deer, Rabbits, Birds Squirrels etc., Rodents chewing on tubing, Spores and Bacteria just waiting for the chance to attack the sugars in the sap and syrup, Pails and tubes must be clean, clean and rinse evaporator, feed tank, storage barrels and tanks, transfer pumps and hoses, assorted pails and buckets and lids, stainless pots and lids, Hydrometers and test cup, spoons and scoops, Oh! and canning jars, rings, lids, bottles, caps etc. etc. etc. - All of this is done under fairly primitive conditions and done quite well by my poor standards. LOL - Now I'm told my Spiles are dirty - dirty - dirty even if cleaned by Hospital Standards. ------Well------Guess I'm back to doing the best I can do and hope my Maple Syrup continues to stay so darn good.........lol ----Mike in Michigan----

I'm sure your syrup is delicious but I think you missed the point of Karen's simple question. lol. Clean spiles speak to tree health and sap yields. Some of us just want to produce as much as we can for as long as we can. There are as many approaches to syrup making as there are syrup makers. What does it hurt you if others do something different than you do? There was nothing in Karen's question that criticized your own way of doing things.

[DrTimPerkins]

Now I'm told my Spiles are dirty - dirty - dirty even if cleaned by Hospital Standards.

Hospital standards for equipment that penetrates the skin (the closest thing to what we do to trees) would be:
A) autoclaving, or
B) replacement

Whether you decide to clean or replace (or both) is up to you, however the choice you make will affect the outcome in terms of sap yield and net profit. WHAT you choose to clean with is, to some degree, regulated by Federal, State, and/or Provincial regulations, or organic rules (if you are a certified organic producer).

[Ausable]

My Fellow Syrup Makers - I Jest. Sometimes We get so serious We scare new people away. I try to encourage those that are New to Maple Syrup Making to --- "Come on - Give it a try - You can do it." So what - if all they have are a couple of Grandpa's old metal spiles, a stainless or aluminum pot and a kitchen stove. You can make Maple Syrup it is easy. As You progress you will acquire more toys to do it with and it will get better and better. This is the Year - Do it - Make Maple and Your life will never be the same again. ---That is my point---- And Yes - New 3/16 or 5/16 plastic spiles are wonderful - if that makes you happy and feel good about Yourself. ---- Just do it----Make Maple Syrup and have Fun. This is the Year. Life is very short. ----LOL----Mike------

[lpakiz]

Mike,
I have read a lot of your posts and I have never seen you sarcastic or snarky, ever! Your style of humor is what I think is called self-deprecating. (sp?) You are always positive and encouraging to all, but especially to beginners. I think perhaps you were mis-understood here....

[RileySugarbush]

We have always mechanically cleaned and boiled our metal spiles. Now understanding that 212°F is not sufficient, and not having an autoclave, I wonder if we would be better off tossing them in a roasting pan and into the oven at 600° for an hour or so? I assume there is nothing magic about the water when boiling and the higher temp should be more effective at killing stuff on them.

That or switch to new plastic spiles every year. I've been wondering about that too.

We have sap sacks with galvanized holders. Any trees with two taps have a short drop rather than a separate sack holder to make for quicker gathering. Up until now we have been reusing those drops, but I see now that looks like a bad idea.

What is the consensus of best practice for a sap sack operation?

[maplestudent]

I've got about 50 of the Leader Tree Saver plastic spouts. About half have been used one season, the other half two seasons. Does anyone know if these are made of material that is autoclave-able? My understanding is that some plastics will melt in an autoclave.

[eustis22]

I use the same spiles and toss 'em every two years.

[maplestudent]

I bought seasonal spouts to use this year....but I still have the tree savers and was wondering.

[tbear]

Hi Everyone,
I've been following this post pretty close as my sap production has dropped way off over the last few years. I've been away on vacation for the last while and was unable to do more than just follow it. Home again, I'd like to follow up with a few questions. First, if I sanitize my 7/16 rolled stainless spiles in a 10:1 water/bleach solution scrubbing them good after a 15 minute soak, then rinsing well, and letting them dry I should see at least a small increase in sap yield? Second, I've been blowing the fresh tap holes out (to clear wood chips) before placing the spile. At the time I did wonder if this was wise. I'm now guessing that it was a bad practice. Should I not do this? Third, I tossed my drill bit bought at the local hardware store and replaced it with a Canadian Tapping Bit purchased from Boscombs. What would be the best way to sanitize the bit? It was kinda pricey and I'd hate to kill it. Lastly, (I only tap 70/75 buckets) if I do all of the above will I see an increase in sap yield? Will the tap holes stay open a little longer? Any insight would be great. Thanks, Ted

[kiteflyingeek]

I've read on here or in Maple Manual that you can "rinse" the bit with vinegar. I just did that when I put my test bucket out about a hour ago. I pour some on the bit, shake it off, chuck it in the drill, and make a hole.

Hope that helps.

--andrew

[mapleguy]

Ted, for what it's worth, I have 1000 taps, 650 on tubing 350 buckets. I use the cv's on my tubing and have increased my sap volume greatly mostly due to extending the season. These really do work. Since I'm all gravity I was skeptical at first. Believe it or not my buckets go even up with the tubing. Most runs I have, buckets are half to overflowing for the duration of the season. I have never sanitized my tapping bits so I'm not sure why anyone would. Thought I would share my experience with you.

[BreezyHill]

tbear, hope the vacation was enjoyable.

We have always washed our lines and last season we were at .47 gallons/ tap on high vac.

Blowing in the hole would be less than ideal as all the germs in your system are in the trees hole.

Sanitizing every thing that contacts the trees clean hole would be best. Would you want a MD using a dirty needle to give you a flue shot? So don't tap the tree with a dirty bit.

I was always taught that if the bit got in the dirt you had to rinse it off with 10% Clorox and a shot of rinse. We always carried three bottles, one to wash a dirty spout, one to rinse, and one to drink. Drink was always tea so it wasn't mixed up.

It worked for us so feel free to use the trick.

Will you get a positive response... I don't see any reason it will reduce production. There may be other factors involved in your slowed production that are not related to sanitation.

It s often hard to see we are doing something wrong that a fresh set of eyes can pickup quickly, but I think you are on the right road to higher production with sanitation of spouts and drill. Just a good sharp bit makes a difference here. Better tap holes hold the vacuum better. The tap seats better too.

Good Luck!

Ben

[tbear]

Thank you for the responses. I sanitized my spiles and drill bit last evening. Gave my buckets a good preseason scrub and rinse this morning. So, I think I'm ready. I'm considering tapping this weekend, however it will depend on whether I can borrow a tractor or not. There's way to much snow for my Ford Ranger right now. I hope everyone has a good season and has fun doing it! Ted

[MJFlores]

I use a bleach solution to soak the taps, new and old for roughly 10 minutes before season, rinse and let them dry. I thought about soaking with alcohol before tapping this year and just may do it. Bacteria is a very real concern, but your bit could carry bacteria also and should be addressed with alcohol too. I've heard it's impossible to remove bacteria from a used tap but I don't buy that. Bleach, boiling, or alcohol are all know cleaners of bacteria and should be fine I would think. I'm still "the new guy" but I think if your production is low, and you're blaming bacteria I think you should take a step back and look at the whole picture as there are SO many variables and conditions that can affect sap flow. If holes heal up quicker than expected, who's to say they wouldn't have healed up that quick with a new tap (spile)? An interesting experiment (that may already have been conducted) would be to place 2 taps per tree, one reused and one new and measure sap flow per tap and measure how long each tap flowed. I wonder if it would reveal a correlation between new taps presumably bacteria free running better and for longer than older previously used and cleaned tap? It would be interesting and could settle the debate. This is a funny hobby...at least for me, I enjoy it so much that I can start taking away some of the fun by over-analyzing things. This isn't a business for me however, so I can take that step back and just be thankful for what sap I do get, nice weather for walking through the woods collecting from buckets, and that sweet reward at the end.

[DrTimPerkins]

Bleach, boiling, or alcohol are all know cleaners of bacteria and should be fine I would think.

Bleach works fairly well (depending upon the way it is used), but attracts squirrels unless you rinse very well.

Alcohol (isopropyl) kills bacteria, but doesn't kill spores, can damage some plastic parts of sap collection systems, and technically is not legal for use in the U.S.

Boiling might be somewhat effective....but most people don't bring their drops in each year, so it is not practical.


An interesting experiment (that may already have been conducted) would be to place 2 taps per tree, one reused and one new and measure sap flow per tap and measure how long each tap flowed

The experiment you suggest (and many others) has been done many times, over many years, by several different groups. See http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=checkvalves.htm as a place to start. Spout and tubing (especially dropline) sanitation is a critical factor in achieving high sap yields. I think most everyone would agree that debate is OVER.

[BreezyHill]

Dr Tim,
Back when there was the Hoof in mouth issue in England we had to start using Virkon S as a disinfectant of our feed trucks and equipment that went to farms. It was also used in the rigs when I was in EMS. I remember the state saying it was none harmful but I was was wondering if this could be used on tubing.

Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

...we had to start using Virkon S as a disinfectant of our feed trucks and equipment that went to farms. It was also used in the rigs when I was in EMS. I remember the state saying it was none harmful but I was was wondering if this could be used on tubing.

Virkon is Potassium Monopersulfate (and other things) and is a fairly good broad-spectrum cleaner/sanitizer, and can be used on non-porous food contact surfaces. Like many disinfectants, it is supposed to be rinsed off after use. Not terribly effective on spores though.

[RileySugarbush]

Dr Perkins,

Have you seen results on aluminum spiles ( for sacks in my case) heated to 600°F?

[DrTimPerkins]

Have you seen results on aluminum spiles ( for sacks in my case) heated to 600°F?

No, but I have seen results for SS spouts that were baked in an oven as part of a cleaning process. It definitely helps, and they'll get pretty darn close to new that way. Just don't use anything real aggressive that might scratch them. A rougher surface provides a better surface for microorganisms to grab onto.

[happy thoughts]

RileySugarBush- I think you brought this up the other day? If not you, then someone else did. I looked into dry heat sterilization then and it looks like it could definitely work on metal spiles. Temps don't need to be 600*F. 300-350* could do it but temps need to be maintained for an hour or two.

This could be done in a home oven. A convection oven would work best and more quickly. Here's a CDC link (http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/disinfection_sterilization/13_10othersterilizationmethods.html) with some more info. And also this one (http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2-3.html) for home brewers.

hope that helps.

[sweeteffinsyrup]

Dairy farmers use acid daily for cleaning all plumbing and equipment that milk flows through. I use it to clean my little pan, along with many others on this site. Works way better than anything else to get the soot off the bottom and take sugarsand off the top. Didn't think of it until reading this thread, but why not use it for washing SS and aluminum spouts, drill bits, etc? A few very thorough rinses would follow, but that pretty much goes without saying...

[DrTimPerkins]

Dairy farmers use acid daily for cleaning all plumbing and equipment that milk flows through.....Didn't think of it until reading this thread, but why not use it for washing SS and aluminum spouts, drill bits, etc? ....

Lots of things work to some degree as cleaners and/or sanitizers. There are a lot of factors involved in what will work and what won't. One of the biggest (at least for tubing) is residence time...there simply isn't enough contact time for any sanitizer sucked in through a spout (or pumped up) to be effective. That's less of an issue with spouts you're bringing in from the woods each year. Pan acid and peracetic acid are both used by maple producers to clean spiles and tubing. However if you've got hundreds or thousands, the amount of time needed to bring in spouts and clean them is prohibitive, and replacement is cheaper and is quite effective.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Lots of things work to some degree as cleaners and/or sanitizers. There are a lot of factors involved in what will work and what won't. One of the biggest (at least for tubing) is residence time...there simply isn't enough contact time for any sanitizer sucked in through a spout (or pumped up) to be effective. That's less of an issue with spouts you're bringing in from the woods each year. Pan acid and peracetic acid are both used by maple producers to clean spiles and tubing. However if you've got hundreds or thousands, the amount of time needed to bring in spouts and clean them is prohibitive, and replacement is cheaper and is quite effective.When we used to clean our lines, we would pump straight liquid(clorox, water solution)-no air with a pto pump run off a tractor. We would fill the lines up , popping each tap and then capping off so they were completely full, then let sit and soak overnight and drain the next day, with the vac. on. It was very time consuming(2-3 weeks to clean), but it seemed like the lines stayed alot cleaner from year to year, then they do now just "dry cleaning" with the vac. on at the end of the year.
Neil

[skinny78]

Karen,

I just found some stainless spiles on ebay for $1.87 each if you buy 100 or more. I think they will work great for sap sacks and buckets so I just ordered some to try out!

Dr Tim and fellow traders,

Will cleaning these in my ultrasonic cleaner be good and what solution would be the best?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Maple-Sap-Syrup-5-16-Stainless-Spouts-Spiles-For-Bag-Sack-Holders-Or-Buckets-/121289541253?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3d6b86859092

[sapsucker78]

Karen,

I just found some stainless spiles on ebay for $1.87 each if you buy 100 or more. I think they will work great for sap sacks and buckets so I just ordered some to try out!

Dr Tim and fellow traders,

Will cleaning these in my ultrasonic cleaner be good and what solution would be the best?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Maple-Sap-Syrup-5-16-Stainless-Spouts-Spiles-For-Bag-Sack-Holders-Or-Buckets-/121289541253?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3d6b86859092

Matthew,

I am the one with these on ebay. They are machined from 304 stainless steel right here in the USA! They work great and clean up easy. If you are looking for any more send me a pm or email and I can get you a better price by dealing direct versus through ebay.

93409339

[Sandersyrup]

These are what I use, they are great. I boiled them this year and in most cases they have outperformed some other plastic spouts i'm using. Buckets do fall off in the wind now and then but i think a smaller hole size in my bucket would have prevented this. Sometimes there is an issue where the drips prefer to go up the spout and down the lower edge of the spout bucket rim which can cause the drip to fall outside the bucket. but its rare.



Matthew,

I am the one with these on ebay. They are machined from 304 stainless steel right here in the USA! They work great and clean up easy. If you are looking for any more send me a pm or email and I can get you a better price by dealing direct versus through ebay.

93409339

[Matts3471]

I grow edible mushrooms for a hobby, and in order to be successful things need to be very very clean. We use a pressure cooker to sterilize our tools and materials. It is a decent substitute for an autoclave. This will get the spiles far cleaner than you can with simple boiling or chemical means. This would definitely work for the stainless steel ones, but it will only work for plastic if they are made of a type of plastic that is autoclavable. The usual time is 90 minutes at 15psi, this allows for the heat to penetrate deeply into the substrates that we are working with. So if you do any canning of vegetables or anything like that on the side you have a decent alternative for an autoclave. If you want clean spiles this is probably the most accessible way without actually going out and buying an autoclave.

I have not actually done this to clean spiles, This is actually my first year doing maple syrup and I improvised with my taps this year. But this should work for getting the spiles very clean.

[DrTimPerkins]

If you want clean spiles this is probably the most accessible way without actually going out and buying an autoclave.

A correction.....by using a pressure cooker (basically a simple autoclave) you will end up with sterile spouts, but not necessarily clean spouts. Good sanitation consists of two parts: cleaning and sanitation. Cleaning removes the dirt or residue. Sanitation reduces the level of microbes. A pressure cooker on its own will sanitize quite effectively, but there can still be residue on the spouts unless they are first cleaned in some manner. If you don't clean and only autoclave you'll end up with sterile (sanitized) dirt, but this residue can provide a good place for microbes to glom on to and start to grow.

[Maplewalnut]

Agree Dr Tim. 'Sterilize' or 'sanitize'. Two very different criteria. Now if you combine a small sonicator with a pressure cooker you may have something but then you have the discussion on what sonication chemical to use, how to rinse it off and it very quickly becomes a mute point not feasible for a sugarmaker. Fact of the matter is leave the burden of sterilization to pharmaceutical and medical device companies. Keep your stainless equipment visibly clean, change your plastic spiles yearly and you will be fine.

[saphound]

Ok, I read this whole thread, including Dr. Tim's links. The studies show re-using plastic spiles can reduce your yield, but it didn't really explain why that is. Do the microbes migrate into the sap hole and plug it up? Or do they reduce yield by eating your sugar in collected sap. Both? Is it more of a concern for tubing systems than buckets? :confused:

[DrTimPerkins]

Ok, I read this whole thread, including Dr. Tim's links. The studies show re-using plastic spiles can reduce your yield, but it didn't really explain why that is. Do the microbes migrate into the sap hole and plug it up? Or do they reduce yield by eating your sugar in collected sap. Both? Is it more of a concern for tubing systems than buckets? :confused:

The microbes neither plug up the taphole nor eat (much of) the sugar. It is more complicated than that.

Liquid in the tubing system move back into the taphole during periods when the releaser dumps (mechanical releasers), or when there is a leak, or a loss of vacuum for some reason (you shut off the pump). This happens far more on vacuum systems, but also occurs in any tubing system when the tree freezes up again (during which water is drawn up from the soil though the roots, however sap can also be pulled up in the dropline).

Because sap is a terrific food source (sugar water and nutrients), tubing systems and used spouts contain microbes, sometimes in huge quantities. It is almost impossible to get them out because they form biofilms and because they are resistant to short-term exposure of many chemical sanitizers.

So when the sap moves backward (backflow) in the tubing, the microbes are carried back into the taphole. The wood surrounding the inside of the taphole acts as a filter, keeping the microbes on the inner surface of the taphole, where they can begin to colonize and begin to grow and reproduce.

The tree "senses" these microbes inside their tissues, and responds by trying to "wall off" or "compartmentalize" the wound. This serves to keep the microbes from infecting and spreading within the tree, but at the same time, prevents sap from moving out through the tissues. This process is called "taphole drying", but has less to do with physical drying than it does to actual tree plugging up the wound from the inside out. This happens at a rate much faster than you'd think, such that after even a few weeks we can see a slowdown in the sap flow from tapholes that use old spouts and old tubing.

Replacing spouts creates a new, very clean interface between the tubing system and the tree, so the tree has less stimuli to cause it to start to wall off the wound. However sap can sometimes move backward many feet, so a spout alone will not totally solve the problem, but certainly does help to a large extent. A new dropline is better, but it is not economical to replace droplines each year. Cleaning spouts and droplines or using CV spouts are all approaches to try to reduce the problem of backflow introducing microbes back into the taphole. They all have varying costs (material and labor) and varying effects on yield, and thus, have varying effects on net profit. One size doesn't fit all, so maple producers have to weigh the costs and benefits and decide what works best for them.

So now you're probably thinking that buckets are the way to go to avoid this. That is not the case. Bucket spouts are normally open to the air, which introduces microbes as well, and drying proceeds at a somewhat faster pace than in tubing.

[saphound]

Thanks for the quick reply, Dr.Tim. That explains it perfectly. Now, if you use the plastic spiles with a drop tube into a bucket on the ground through a tight fitting hole, is that any better than the hanging bucket style?.. or still considered open to the air.

[DrTimPerkins]

... if you use the plastic spiles with a drop tube into a bucket on the ground through a tight fitting hole, is that any better than the hanging bucket style?.. or still considered open to the air.

It would depend upon exactly how it were done, but would likely be somewhere in between. There is really no getting past the problem altogether. We can minimize the issue, but not eliminate it.

[saphound]

Got it, thanks again. :)

[saphound]

Not sure if this is related or not, but when tapping this year I noticed two of last years holes didn't close up at all. Same diameter and you could stick a twig in there the full inch and a half. All the other holes had healed over nicely. Do these microbes have anything to do with a tap hole not healing? If not, what might be the cause? Thanks.

[fishman]

I'm thinking that the way to clean out the taphole is to blow after taking a shot of Crown Royal (Maple of course). Now I just have to figure how many holes per shot. Hopefully it's not a 1:1 ratio.

[DrTimPerkins]

I'm thinking that the way to clean out the taphole is to blow after taking a shot of Crown Royal (Maple of course). Now I just have to figure how many holes per shot. Hopefully it's not a 1:1 ratio.

Ah...well. As good an idea as that sounds, ethanol is not a "gas phase sanitizer", so you'd have to spit the liquor into the taphole instead of just blowing into it.

On that subject, we've tried various things to keep tapholes running longer. Generally they don't work. Sometimes they even have a negative effect.

[saphound]

Not sure if this is related or not, but when tapping this year I noticed two of last years holes didn't close up at all. Same diameter and you could stick a twig in there the full inch and a half. All the other holes had healed over nicely. Do these microbes have anything to do with a tap hole not healing? If not, what might be the cause? Thanks.
Bumping this in case it got missed by Dr.Tim

[DrTimPerkins]

Not sure if this is related or not, but when tapping this year I noticed two of last years holes didn't close up at all. Same diameter and you could stick a twig in there the full inch and a half. All the other holes had healed over nicely. Do these microbes have anything to do with a tap hole not healing? If not, what might be the cause? Thanks.

Not likely. Probably more likely to be tree health or climate related. How was your growing season (wet/dry)? Any insect issues? How big were these trees? It on those tapholes you tapped right over a group of older tapholes.

[wnybassman]

Not likely. Probably more likely to be tree health or climate related. How was your growing season (wet/dry)? Any insect issues? How big were these trees? It on those tapholes you tapped right over a group of older tapholes.

I've got a few trees around here that I can stick a twig in 4+ inches into old tapholes. Obviously rotting as I never drill much more than about 1 1/2". Hole never closed and is blackened inside. Is there ANY possibility this is due to my tapping? I chalked it up to tree health because you could wreck a car into a tree and it will heal over in a few years if a healthy tree. It does concern me though, and one of the biggest reasons I went to all 5/16" taps instead of my old 7/16".

[saphound]

Not likely. Probably more likely to be tree health or climate related. How was your growing season (wet/dry)? Any insect issues? How big were these trees? It on those tapholes you tapped right over a group of older tapholes.
Well after a very wet June, the rest of the year was below average for rain. No insect issues that I know of. All the trees tapped are 16 to 20 inches diameter at chest high, and were tapped for the first time last year. I'll have to see this year if the same trees that didn't heal fail to heal again this year. I was just wondering if the bacteria could be the cause, apparently not.
Thanks Dr. Tim.