Lifting Sap 4-5' into zero tank

[Joust7.1]

So I just acquired a vacuum bulk tank that should give me great capacity for my 200-250 taps on vac. My best option for location of this tank would mean that all my mainlines would come in at about knee level or slightly lower. I would need to find a way to raise the incoming sap into the tank 5' in height to capitalize on this set-up. My alternative is to put the tank at another location and have the lines come in above the tank. However, this option requires my getting down a steep hill with my gathering tank which may is difficult even when traction and conditions are great. Does anyone have any suggestions for raising sap about 4' at the tank so that it can enter at the inlet at the top. I will have three 3/4" mainlines coming to this location. I am running about 20" of vac. Possibly more, but that will have to be another thread.

[ennismaple]

Avoid lifting with a sap ladder if at all possible. Either dig a hole to lower the tank or move it to a lower location and pump up to your gathering wagon. In the long run you'll get more sap.

[Bruce L]

I would agree with Marty, run a hose back up the hill to where you originally planned to place the tank and pump up into the gathering tank, just make sure there are no sags in your line to freeze up or you won't be able to pump your sap up

[Joust7.1]

I was hoping someone would offer a simple solution for this new location as it offers many advantages. This location is much more accessible, cooler storage location, closer to sugar house, easy to add another couple dozen taps and reasonable to get power to it to pump the sap back to the sugar house. The obvious challenges are the heights of the mainlines in relation to the tank. I am only inches or maybe about a foot above the water level of a swamp, so I'm not comfortable digging a hole for the tank as I would risk it floating up out of the hole if the water level rises. Do sap lifters or ladders reduce your production that much, even being right next to the tank and only about 150' or so from the vacuum pump. Can't you run a dry line passed the ladder/lifter to keep production as high as possible on the mains?

[arcticmaple8]

if you have 110v line power maybe put releaser on a small holding tank closer to the ground and have a sump pump fill the zero tank.

[BreezyHill]

It has been my experience that ladders, when installed and maintain properly do not have a negative affect on production. Last year our production level was .47 gallons/ tap. The trick is to have a tight system and add air if needed.

A lift of 5' to get to an inlet of a zero tank is very easy to accomplish. I raise say 48' in a three step ladder system so that I do not have to pump any sap to the sugar house.

Our operation has had ladders since the late 1970's. My dad was a surge milk equipment salesman and transportation of milk from the tie stall area to the milk house was the new and easy way of milking cows. So he figured a way to utilize the tees and two inlet tee adapters to make a sap riser.

See when you have been doing things since you were a kid you just laugh when people say it doesn't work, cant be done etc.

How far is it to the sugarhouse? what is the elevation change from the Zero tank to the sugar house? What is the reason of the 20" of vac.

Zero is a surge tank. I have a 500 gallon tank that we got back in 1982. Great tank, we used it to pull on bush into as the stainless dairy releaser was at its capacity. Now this is going to be my RO tank. Insulated tank is a great way to keep the sap cool til it goes thru the RO.

Remember nothing is impossible, impractical is a matter of thinking!

Ben

[heus]

I will be using more ladders in my woods when necessary. The main reason being that I am tired of tearing up my woods hauling sap. It's not worth it to me to get a little bit more sap but then tear my woods up and damage roots to collect from remote tanks.

[Joust7.1]

It has been my experience that ladders, when installed and maintain properly do not have a negative affect on production. Last year our production level was .47 gallons/ tap. The trick is to have a tight system and add air if needed.

A lift of 5' to get to an inlet of a zero tank is very easy to accomplish. I raise say 48' in a three step ladder system so that I do not have to pump any sap to the sugar house.

Our operation has had ladders since the late 1970's. My dad was a surge milk equipment salesman and transportation of milk from the tie stall area to the milk house was the new and easy way of milking cows. So he figured a way to utilize the tees and two inlet tee adapters to make a sap riser.

See when you have been doing things since you were a kid you just laugh when people say it doesn't work, cant be done etc.

How far is it to the sugarhouse? what is the elevation change from the Zero tank to the sugar house? What is the reason of the 20" of vac.

Zero is a surge tank. I have a 500 gallon tank that we got back in 1982. Great tank, we used it to pull on bush into as the stainless dairy releaser was at its capacity. Now this is going to be my RO tank. Insulated tank is a great way to keep the sap cool til it goes thru the RO.

Remember nothing is impossible, impractical is a matter of thinking!

Ben

I like your thinking and experience with dairy equipment as that is the type of equipment that I'm dealing with so far. Some of the equipment I got a few days ago from a friend that runs a large farm and recently bought a defunct small farm for the land. The farm had some of the equipment that I will be using as he had "no" use for it and it would have just sat in the milkhouse collecting more dust. I have a couple different vacuum pumps available, both dairy (1-delaval and 1-masport senior). I also have three mechanical dairy releasers that I can use if needed (bender and two universals that are bender style, one round glass jar and two smaller cylindrical). I also now have a 525 gallon vacuum bulk tank made by Universal, so not a brand name of "Zero" if that is such a thing.
My grandparents were dairy farmers and sugarmakers back in the day which has helped spur my interest in this "hobby". Keeping it in the family even though my dad and his brothers have very limited experience since they were young when they go out of maple. Anyway, with the vacuum tank, is it safe to assume that I don't need to use a releaser? I thought that was the advantage of a vacuum tank. To answer your questions:
1. The sugarhouse is approximately 200' to the tank location if I put it where I would have to raise the sap up into the tank. 750' if I put it where the mainlines run downhill into the tank but at the base of a steep hill that is challenging for gathering. Collection tank to sugarhouse would be at least a 25' lift. Maybe a bit more to dial in some slope to the SH.
2. I ran about 18-20" on vacuum last year with my delaval pump, simply because I thought it got hot and strained if I ran anymore than that. My newer pump, the masport, looks to be a lot better pump and may do better, but I don't know much about how high a vac you can run on those safely. I certainly don't want to ruin a nice pump that I know works great at 18-20".

Thanks for any additional advice after getting these responses.

P.S. I was thinking I could set up a manifold for the mainlines at about knee height that would drain into the vac tank bottom drain. This would be good for gravity when the pump wasn't running and so long as the tank was mostly empty. I could then plumb a jump line from the manifold to one of the inlets on the top of the tank for when the sap is higher in the tank than the mainlines??? or maybe this could be a sap ladder or sap lifter for when the tank is under vac and the pump is running??? Would this work?

Note: possibly in time for the season, but likely for next year I will have another bulk tank that I plan to put at the SH that will give me all the storage that I need. I would plan to pump from the vac tank in the woods to the sugarhouse, so that vac tank would rarely be more than a couple hundred gallons full.

[BreezyHill]

Sounds great!

What model is the delaval?

The masport will already have oilers...drippers built in on the bearings. Now all you need is another to take this girl to the next level of vacuum.

I rebuild the older delavals to run at 28+". These units have a built in heat exchanger and an oil system that was a decade ahead of its time. Do not try to modify these pumps with out knowing what you are doing. It will destroy the unit in a few minutes of startup.

If you wanted to not have a tank in the bush and run all the sap to the sugar house it is very doable. We have.

This year we will be adding back to the tapped area trees that are over 100' of lift to the sugar house and 3000' away.

I don't have time to haul sap. I cant justify run tractors in the woods to follow in the spring with a box blade to remove ruts and I have a spring fed swamp/marsh that I have to drive thru in one part. I just throw a switch and the sap comes to me. The tractors feed cows and it can be a one man operation when the boys are at college.

I will get pics when we build the ladders for the new section and modify the current ladders to carry the extra taps.

Ben

[maple flats]

Be careful not to exceed 20" on the tank. 2 main points: 1st- not all surge tanks are vacuum tanks. Those that are have a label on one end indicating that it was tested to 20" vacuum. 2nd- even on a vacuum tank you risk collapse if you exceed the 20". It could implode and there is at least one picture on here in a post about that problem. At least 1 of our fellow Traders imploded his tank, it will turn a nice tank into a useless lump of scrap metal in an instant. If labeled for vacuum, only go to that level if the tank is in good condition or risk the same fate.
I have 2 Surge tanks, both 1000 gal. One I use at a bush and I have the tank lowered into a 5' deep hole that is well drained. At that I still had to use 1 sap ladder to get about 65 taps into the tank. That is actually in a 3/4" main and the sap ladder is only 30" lift. It was simple, I just used a 90, went up 29", another 90 (it does net 30") and then into the line going to the tank. I use no introduced air and the sap climbs the vertical very well. I can't sap how much vac it is costing me because I've always had the ladder. While that main and ladder is 3/4" I no longer install any 3/4" mains. All my mains are now 1" and both my systems are on wet/dry except that main direct to the tank and 2 lines that go directly to my releaser at my bigger bush.
My other Surge tank has no vac. test label shown and it is not yet being used, but when it is it will not be on vacuum

[lpakiz]

I thought I read here that one inch of vacuum will lift one foot of water. If so, you will lose 4 inches of vacuum, at most, but I think you can just pull that sap up that far, right? Could you get the sap to enter at the drain valve, perhaps with a system of valves or couplers, so that when the tank only has a foot in it, it only costs you 1 inch of vacuum. Then uncouple while you pump out?
I could see the wisdom of having at least two vacuum regulators, mounted directly to the tank, to make sure you protect your tank. Or am I missing something here? Not perfect, of course, but a workaround for this situation...

[arcticmaple8]

hey Breezyhill,

Just curious how you can achieve 28" with a delaval vein pump. I have a couple (76 and 78) sitting around. What do you do different when you rebuild them, and have you had success keeping them cool at 25+ inches? My best experience with a vein pump has been about 20" with a smaller masport with flooding oil and oil cooler.

[mellondome]

Look at vertical releases...or for the distance you are talking.... put your tank at the sugarhouse and electric releasers to pump directly to the tank at the sugarhouse

[maple flats]

I thought I read here that one inch of vacuum will lift one foot of water. If so, you will lose 4 inches of vacuum, at most, but I think you can just pull that sap up that far, right? Could you get the sap to enter at the drain valve, perhaps with a system of valves or couplers, so that when the tank only has a foot in it, it only costs you 1 inch of vacuum. Then uncouple while you pump out?
I could see the wisdom of having at least two vacuum regulators, mounted directly to the tank, to make sure you protect your tank. Or am I missing something here? Not perfect, of course, but a workaround for this situation...
I'm not sure the math will work like that. I may be wrong, but my thinking is that the 1" vacuum lifts about 1' will not have a direct relationship to the vacuum lost. I think the relative CFM (like 3+ CFM/100 taps)capacity of the pump will have a bearing. If you have a much higher CFM pump and a tubing design to transport that vacuum, you would lose less. Correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking. However if you have a lower CFM pump which is more like 1 cfm/100 taps you will lose more.

[BreezyHill]

Ah the math does not work like that. If you turned off the pump it would work like that, but not if the pump is still running. lol

The CFM of the pump is being generated the entire time the pump is running and producing this amount of cfms at a desired amount of vacuum pressure. The pressure is usually measured in inches of mercury. As the inches of vac increases the cfms will drop as it is harder for the pump to remove air that is not present. That is why it is very important to look at a cfm chart for a pump to see what level the cfm was measured at. Taking a pump from 22 to 25 will generally cut the cfms in half, to 28" is even more of a decrease. Having tested several pumps it is very shocking how fast the cfms will drop on a pump as the vac increases.

One inch of mercury is able to elevate sap approximately 12". Just because it is able to elevate the sap this distance does not mean that the pressure of the line is changed by the amount of pressure necessary to elevate. This is a law for pumping sap up hill and down hill. It is actually the cfm that will be affected as the sap and a small amount of gases are being transported to the releaser. As long as the pump is sized sufficiently to transport the sap in the main the ladder will have a minuet bearing on the vac level. If the tubing system is not tight there will be a noticeable difference in vacuum level past the ladder as the leaks will become very noticeable. The gases will be brought to the releaser/pump if there is or is not a ladder as will the sap.

Example: In a 1" main, sloping 2% from the ladders toward the sugar house. Vac level at the pump was 28" at the bottom of a 16' ladder, the vac level was 26" another 200' of main is a second ladder of 18'. At the base of this ladder the vac level was 25". At the base of the next 16' ladder another 250', the level was 25".

It is correct that a Zero or Vacuum tight bulk tank is typically not tested past 20 or 22", ours was run on 26" plus for several years with no ill affects. This does not mean that every tank will with stand these pressures. Any damage to the surface of the tank will dramatically affect the vacuum level the tank will with stand.

The tank that I saw posted was a standard milk tanker on a rusty old truck frame. These are in no way designed for any vacuum and will implode under the vacuum generated by simply opening the valve and partially draining the tank. So to put a vacuum pump on to one of these units would be flirting with inevitable doom.

[BreezyHill]

Arcticmaple8,
Wow love that name...so do you run arctic cats? If so this will be easier for you. The oil of a snowmobile is not just lubrication but cooling.

In a vane pump, the choice of oil or blends of oils are very important to cooling the pump. Good vacuum oil is designed to vaporize at a temp lower than say motor oil and remove water. The oil is then designed to condense rapidly to release heat energy. So if the pump is heating up it needs more oil to cool it. If the vacuum level is not up to par then try adding a small portion of an oil that is designed to vaporize at a much higher temperature.

The vanes of a 74, 76 or 78, depending on the year of production, will be one of three products. The oldest product is not a product that is liked or talked about any longer. It started with the letter a and was also used as an insulative product. The newer product is a Kevlar material. The mid vintage materials were carbon base materials and are still available from some suppliers.

The older pumps, the 73 & 75 series were metal vaned pumps. These have a particular advantage at keeping the temp lower. Since the steel has a smaller surface area that contacts the housing, there is less friction. This friction is where a lot of the heat is produced. The metal vane contact area is usually less than 1 millimeter; while in a nonmetallic vane, the area is the thickness of the vane, about 5 mm. So when the oil enters the pump and contacts the metal vane the vane is cooled and the oil is sent out of the pump chamber by the exhaust opening. The vapor contacts the oil in the reservoir under the housing and is condensed. This will raise the temp of the oil and the heat is dissipated into the frame of the pump and motor frame.

The 74 is a much smaller width pump than the 73 it replaced. The 74 is a much larger diameter pump to achieve the similar cfms. The newer pumps are designed to either mount on a balance tank or bolted to a motor frame. Thus the benefit of the heavy metal frame as a heat exchanger is lost.

The drip oilers that oil the bearings are great for lubricating the bearings but not enough for cooling the pump well. To cool the pump you will need to add a dripper to the intake of the pump. This is easiest if you add a tee prior to the pump and between the check valve and the pump. After doing this you will need an oil reclaimer to catch the oil vapor for recycling it into the pump for cooling.

Most oilers have plastic feed tubes. These are fine for low vacuum of 20". If you are going to push the pump for more you will need to upgrade to copper lines. Copper lines will also aid in the cooling of the oil from the reclaimer. As the pump runs on into the heat of the day the oil will become thiner and more drips per minute will be delivered increasing the cooling.

The 2nd most important additional equipment for a pump is the moisture trap. A quality moisture trap will remove moisture from the air from the releaser traveling to the pump. If the pump is allowed to get moisture in the housing the resulting corrosion will create a tremendous amount of heat from friction. The corrosion will also scare the vanes and reduce the vacuum level that is obtainable. Thus it is important that a pump is run up to temperature prior to shut down; so that any moisture that gets into the pump will be vaporized and migrate out of the pump. A quality vac oil will also encapsulate water and carry it to the reclaimer where it will be separated by gravity. Every day you must drain the water in the trap and the reclaimer.

Personally in my operation a vacuum controller has no place. I want as much vac as the pump will make. Last season the only time I was concerned with my pump was on the two 70 degree days near the end of the season. The sugar house was hot at around 80 degrees and the pump was running around 178 to 180. It was hot to the touch but when you look at temps that hydraulics on our feed trucks hit is was just fine. This pump does not have my latest upgrades added but it will when it gets put back on line as a spare for next season. The new pump for this season is a Delaval 75 that comes in at 10.8 cfm at 28". With a fully upgraded drum with individual cooling of each vane. I will be adding an additional dripper to the inlet in the event that the unit gets warm. My pumps will be in the second floor of the sugar house where it is much cooler than around the evaporator.

I imagine you have a M3 masport, due to they were the pump of choice to replace the 76. Great pump that usually sat on a balance tank and had a excellent oil reclaimer. The were a larger body housing that would dissipate heat better than the 76 and would sometimes have an additional third oiler in the inlet for those hot summer days on the farm. A M3 has little that can be upgraded except for getting a really good fabricator to make you a set of vanes and attaching a digital alarm that will display the units temp. If she gets warm you can hook up an electronic solenoid to a dripper that is preset to drip in extra oil to cool the pump. I am planning on adding such a control unit with a rotary switch to choose which ever pump is on line. This box will be down stairs so that it can be watched.

If you are looking to pop the case let me know and I will walk you thru what you need to do. You will need a drill press and some rather price drills. I suggest a noncontact temp unit, and you will need to brush up on your oil characteristics. Blending oils for these pumps is easy when you understand oils, but if you make the wrong blend you will have a pump that may not start easily on cold mornings, not cool well, or just run low vac levels.

Can it be done, Yes is it simple, once you have a little knowledge. Is it less expensive than a claw pump, you bet.

My wife says I can squeeze a fart out of a buffalo on a nickel. But she lets me go to farms and buy their old equipment and play with it. It keeps me out of trouble and it is teaching our sons an art that is nearly lost.

Feel free to pm me if you need more info. This thread has gotten way of point.

Ben