New 2X4 arch build for Smokey Lake Hybrid pan

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Well, I guess I can submit this for critique now...

I was going to go 2X6, but decided to keep it small, as my existing shed is small at 8X14. My design will allow future extension if I wish. Total outside dimensions are 36H X 25W X 60D. 2 X 2 X 1/8 angle used. For leveling, the frame is on 6 adjustable feet fabricated from 5/8 bolts, washers welded to head, w/nuts welded to bottom of frame.
My plans went just a little awry in that my ash box is low, but I will be OK on that, as I will just build up the fire box floor. I am planning a firebox size of 20H X 20-23D X 21W. My 45deg ramp will start just 4" from the bottom. 1" arch board, with half bricks in fire box and up ramp. The remainder will be just arch board (1900deg from Bascom's). The horizontal run is 8", and I will put a double layer of arch board with spacers to bring it up close the the 5" drop flues. Maybe 1/2 inch clearance?
Door opening is 10H X 14W. I have made the front sheeting and door frame removable. Front is double layer of 18g steel, fastened to frame with aircraft grade stainless 10-32 bolts and high temp nuts. My door I think will be angle iron and sheet with ceramic blanket similar to the Bill Mason door. I have not decided how I will fasten all my sheet. It is all cut and fit, ready to install. Tack weld some, screw some ????..
My base stack will be fabricated from bed frame angle iron for top and bottom, 3/4" angle for verticals, 18g sheet, and an 8" double wall oval to round adapter. I have the top and bottom frames complete. (see pictures). I think I will add a damper on my stack just in case....
My grate will be 13" X 14", surrounded by a layer of fire brick and recessed below a second layer of brick. I will have a blower installed in the aft wall of the ash box.

Here are some pictures, with more to follow over the next couple days I hope.

Eric8591859285938594

[bamboozled]

Looks good. I just started building an arch myself for my brother. What is the benefit of doing the 45 degree rise? I was going to go that route but decide to just cut the rise into the vertical so I could make my sides all once piece.

[Big_Eddy]

Looks good.
No need for a damper, especially if you have a blower installed.

I riveted my skin on. Drilled holes through the skin and angle iron and installed steel pop rivets. (I'll buy an air riveter if I ever do that again!!) My skin is 22g stainless I scrounged from a dumpster.

I considered self drilling screws, but I've had poor success with them on other projects. With the pop rivets, there is nothing protruding on the inside to interfere with the bricks and insulation, yet removal of a panel would be as simple as drilling off the heads if I ever had a reason to need to do it.

[Sugarmaker]

The build looks very good. I would watch for potential warpage of the bed rails supporting the smoke stack. It gets really hot there and they may not take the heat for long? Maybe someone with more experience in building these might comment.
Have fun making syrup!
Regards,
Chris

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Looks good. I just started building an arch myself for my brother. What is the benefit of doing the 45 degree rise? I was going to go that route but decide to just cut the rise into the vertical so I could make my sides all once piece.

I decided on the steep transition after seeing another arch design that actually had 2 angles to a straight run aft. I wanted a straight run to keep the gap as low as possible for the drop flues.
The angles transition was not easy to build.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

The build looks very good. I would watch for potential warpage of the bed rails supporting the smoke stack. It gets really hot there and they may not take the heat for long? Maybe someone with more experience in building these might comment.
Have fun making syrup!
Regards,
Chris
No problem with integrity of the stack assy.
The angle iron for the stack will be bolted to the arch rails, laying on top of them with the exception of the cross angle that seats up against the rear of the hybrid pan. I will install a gasket there.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Completed welding up of the arch frame, and installed all the skin. decided to just tack weld, and it went very quick and without problems. Applied 600deg high temp silicone inside all the skin to frame areas to seal any gaps, as little as they were. Began cutting and fitting arch board.
What do we use to seal/secure the arch board?
A little refractory cement?
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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Welded up my stack today, Need to cut and install skin. I should have made it shorter! I wanted 36", but it finished at 42" 8615 8616

After skin and paint!

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Here are more pictures from the last couple days work.
It took me a couple days until the light went on and I came up with my door latch idea. A 5/8 bolt, a couple nuts, a bushing, and some 1/2 rod. The rod was a problem bending. I couldn;t get enough heat, so I cut notches out, and it bent fine, and I welded the bends. I plan on adding a momentary switch to the latch to turn on the blower when the door is closed, and off when I open the handle. The door latch tension is adjustable by adding or removing washers from the back of the plate attached to the frame (drilled and tapped) with 10-32 bolts.
My grate has approx 60 square inches of open area, that puts it over the 50" of my 8" stack.

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Getting close to wrapping up. Fabricated ash box door today, installed with latches and high temperature seal. The ash box is certainly airtight. Installed arch board and blanket into door.
I am thinking of coating door frame on arch with refractory cement, and wonder if I can install two layers of arch board on door and put a couple coats of refractory cement over that to protect it?
Should I just use blanket, and replace as it gets damaged.

I appreciate any suggestions.

Eric86678668866986708671

[ACollette]

Do you have any way to control the cfm's on the blower? It would be nice to be able to ensure that you aren't blowing all your heat up your stack. I learned the hard way and had to come up with a way to reduce my air flow because I was blowing fire out my stack. Also, I'm worried that you may have an issue with blowing ash out the cleanout door in the front (even with the gasket). Congratulations on the Smokey Lake Pan... true craftsmanship.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Do you have any way to control the cfm's on the blower? It would be nice to be able to ensure that you aren't blowing all your heat up your stack. I learned the hard way and had to come up with a way to reduce my air flow because I was blowing fire out my stack. Also, I'm worried that you may have an issue with blowing ash out the cleanout door in the front (even with the gasket). Congratulations on the Smokey Lake Pan... true craftsmanship.

Yes, I have a variable speed control, and I picked up a momentary switch to install so when the door handle is turned the blower will shut off to save a step in shutting it off every time I stoke the fire.
The ash box is air tight, sealed completely with high temp RTV. The door is flat, and closes tight, and the gasket is tight I am sure.
One of my questions I asked about the door...
I stopped by Bascom's yesterday and looked at a Mason arch door. It has metal exposed on the door frame, and holding the blanket on the door. It seems mine should be just fine. I will install 2 additional layers of sacrificial arch board on the door and replace it as it gets damaged.

Here is a picture of the little W.F. Mason arch door.
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Now Mine.
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** UPDATE **

And I just installed the Variable control and door switch. Works good.

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[johnzski]

I hope you Don't have a patent on your design , think I'll be using a lot of your ideas on mine . Really like it! Especially the moment switch on the door latch .

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I hope you Don't have a patent on your design , think I'll be using a lot of your ideas on mine . Really like it! Especially the moment switch on the door latch .

I like to do all I can to make life easy. One less step, and over the season, hundreds of times I would have to switch off the blower, and back on!
So many ideas I have gotten from this forum, and expanded on. Glad to share and give back something. The switch certainly is an idea I came up with.

Good Luck87058706

[chad]

Are you going to put sand in the angle iron grates to help in preventing them from warping someone once told that was the way to do not saying he was right but made sense to me

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

They will fill up with ash and it will insulate them all season as long as you don't clean it out.

[lpakiz]

Eric,
Thats one heck of an idea, to put that blower switch on the door latch! When we load, it's no problem to shut the blower off before opening the door. It takes a second for the air flow to die down anyway. But after loading wood, we look like a NASCAR pit crew, shutting the door and heading for the blower switch to turn it back on. Nice job!
I also think your door insulation job will work out fine. I have blanket on mine, and it looks like I will be OK this second year, but will probably need replacing after that . Small job to do that. I spotted nuts to the door, and used 3/16 redi-rod studs, washers and nuts to secure the blanket. The studs screw in a couple turns and bottom out on the door skin. My thinking is that the anchor nuts are under the blanket and protected from the heat and will be re-usable. The washers, studs and nuts are almost trash already. So I'll just vise-grip the stubs out and replace the blanket, redi-rod and nuts. I think.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Completed today with the receipt of the pan.

Here is the final version.

130 pictures if you want to log onto Dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Evaporator%20build

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

TEST BOIL GOOD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2fJKQ_gupU

[Noah's Ark]

Nice video, a pretty impressive set up for your feed/storage tanks. Looks like it will be a fun season for you. Good luck.

[sweeteffinsyrup]

Looking at posts like these gives me something to aim for in the future. Very impressive set up. Johnzski won't be the only one using your ideas. Look forward to more updates on the performance of your new evaporator. Any plans for a steam hood?

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Looking at posts like these gives me something to aim for in the future. Very impressive set up. Johnzski won't be the only one using your ideas. Look forward to more updates on the performance of your new evaporator. Any plans for a steam hood?

Actually, my highest priority at his point is a preheater via a heat exchanger system. I need to capture some of the waste going out my stack, as the 2X4 is so inefficient.
I am researching safe heat transfer fluids. I am afraid the stack heat may be to much. I would like to plumb it on the rear of the stack base, insulate it, plumb it into my head/holding tank with a modulated temperature control system. I could build a mechanical ability to separate it from the stack base when temp of fluid gets to high. Without detailed physics engineering analysis I think it will be a challenge to get this one right, and it may not be practical or doable. Another thing, would to build a reservoir that is visible, so as to detect fluid loss in case of a leak in the system immediately.
So much to do....

*** UPDATE ***

added preheater yesterday.

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And a vapor relief tube the next.

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

I just posted this on another thread, but thought it is worthy of mention here.
I had made the arch width small, and realized it to late. Today I removed the pan, and cut the top rails back one inch to gain 120 square inches of area. I hope this will all be helpful for others down the road. I gained so much here and still made so many mistakes, but was able to correct them like this.

***UPDATE***
Test boil with sap today, and what a difference! The boiling was VERY near the edge of the pan all the way around now. I was boiling cautiously, and near 2 inches in the pan with a rate of approx 20 GPH and stack temp 1000-1200.

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

FIRST REAL BOIL TODAY!

Ran it for 7 hours, from light off to shutdown. Boiled off 140 gallons for an average of 20gph. Everything went well, except my preheater design is disappointing with just a 50-80 degree rise to 90-120 degrees outlet to float box.
The sap has finally started to run here, and it look real good for the next week and beyond.
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Here is a video to see the action!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzFLyAE9-f8&feature=youtu.be

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Update on results after 16 hours of boiling. I removed the pan for cleaning, and to inspect arch for problems. Everything looked fairly well, but cemented some areas with Meeco furnace cement.

1. angle iron grate is good.

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2. Cleaned lots of carbon off pan

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3. My Door design is holding up so far, but many more hours to go this season.

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4. My redesigned stack base preheater is getting up to 120 outlet temp.

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

EXPANSION TIME!

I received my Smoky Lake 2x2 three compartment finishing pan a few days ago, and added it on the front by pushing back the 2x4 drop flue. I cut out the rear frame, and welded up 2 feet more at the rear to make this a 2x6 arch. I hated the thought of all the heat going out the stack that could be put to use. I felt compelled to do this for three reasons.
1. Greater efficiency
2. My drop flues were actually to far forward for my liking. I designed my ramp to far back I felt
3. Reduce my evaporator time. I was at about 23gph... What do you think I will get?

99639964996599669967

[Schiefe4]

Maybe it will go up to 27 gph?

[altonmaples]

You have done a fantastic job with each part of the process. I really appreciate you sharing the photos and videos. Helps to answer some questions I had about continuous improvements. Look forward to seeing more as you progress to the next steps.
Jim

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Maybe it will go up to 27 gph?

I have done a good boil, and checked two different times from head readings and I got 30 gph and 32 gph, and total sap boiled for 4.5 hours was 140 gal that comes out to 31 gph. I cannot explain the huge increase. I doesn't make sense, but whatever. Maybe I am firing better now. Maybe... If you look at the picture on my post #26, I put some fire bricks (not shown) on the outside of the drop flues, and under the 2x4 flat pan section at the top of my ramp to force the hot gases closer to the pan and flues and spaced them to create turbulance.
I will say that it is much more stable now with the added pan.

Bottom Line ... I am getting 30-32 gph now.

[sams64]

Did you ever get your preheated working? I have a similar set up and it did almost nothing until I added insulation over it. Now the temps are well over 100 degrees coming into my pan.

Sam

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Did you ever get your preheated working? I have a similar set up and it did almost nothing until I added insulation over it. Now the temps are well over 100 degrees coming into my pan.

SamWorking, yes, but not so good. Something is better than nothing. It only raises sap temp 40 degrees.

***UPDATE 2016 ***
I removed the preheater this year after building my RO.. I lost 1-2gpm

[DoubleBrookMaple]

***Update***

After 2 years, and approx 125 hours of firing, the door insulation board is due for replacement. I was able to remove the bolts very easily, and replace washers and use original Grade 8 bolts.
All else is good...

Door
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Old board removed
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Two layers of board removed
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Outer board layer replaced
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[Pauly V]

Looking good. Do the bolts go through the front of the door? I need to insulate my door as well.

Thanks

[lpakiz]

You might try tack-welding some nuts to the inside of the door. It's a bit tricky to find the nut thru the insulation, but a small phillips screwdriver will help probe for the correct spot. Use short bolts to secure the insulation. The bolts will only screw in a few threads until they bottom out, but that is sufficient.
The benefit is that when you need to replace the insulation, you can unscrew (and discard if damaged) the bolts, while saving the nuts. The insulation will preserve the nuts very well.

[Pauly V]

Thank You!

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Looking good. Do the bolts go through the front of the door? I need to insulate my door as well.

Thanks

Sorry for the lag in reply...

It looks like this. I used threaded rod couplings. Also note the Grade 8 bolts. I was able to reuse them.
BTW, you can put your finger tips on my door!

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[Pauly V]

Thank You!