Pumping sap uphill question?

[miller maple]

Okay so the question is I have 1000 feet uphill at about 70 feet of elevation change and I got a 1" line and I have been looking at a bunch of pumps and can't decide on witch one to go with. I wouldn't like to go with a gas powered unit for the fact that I don't have electric at the releser and I have Ben looking at semi trash pumps and there saying that it has 98 ft of head. But I'm just wondering at that distance if it will do fine just seein if anyone else has a similar set up.

[Machinist67]

typically you will not find a gas driven pump that will have high head. Is the pump you are looking at, says 98ft or shut off at 98ft? If you are pumping 5gpm thru a 1inch pipe you have 1.6ft of loss per 100ft, so at 1000ft of pipe you need to add 16ft of friction loss to the 70ft of elevation. This would put you at 86ft of loss without adding any more fittings. you would need to find a 2 stage gas driven pump or belt drive a pump. Some fire fighting pump have higher head. Here is a link to a pump you could use. http://www.amtpump.com/products/PDF/ENG%201-2.pdf which should be in the $500-600 price range.

[Balsam Hills]

Okay so the question is I have 1000 feet uphill at about 70 feet of elevation change and I got a 1" line and I have been looking at a bunch of pumps and can't decide on witch one to go with. I wouldn't like to go with a gas powered unit for the fact that I don't have electric at the releser and I have Ben looking at semi trash pumps and there saying that it has 98 ft of head. But I'm just wondering at that distance if it will do fine just seein if anyone else has a similar set up.

Trash pumps don't typically generate as much total head as high pressure pumps. This pump would probably do the trick-214 ft total head. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418131_200418131

There's lots of factors to consider including head, friction loss, hose size, etc. Are you concerned about engine oil getting into your sap? I read some posts a while back where someone was looking for a food grade pump with food grade oil but didn't have much luck.

Attached are a couple more sources of information that I find helpful. The irrigation tutorial below is one of the best for calculating pump size based on conditions. Good luck!

Sizing pumps - http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm

High pressure pump - http://bigsprinkler.com/products/2-high-pressure-55hp-self-priming-irrigation-pump

[miller maple]

Ok thanks for the info. The other option I was lookin at was getting a deep well submersible pump and runing it of a generator

[maple flats]

The Northern tool pump would be a good choice, but 1 question 1st. After the 70' climb do you have a drop on the other side or is that where you need to pump to? I ask because it will help calculate your friction loss and flow. Note that the pump mentioned in the Northern link is for 2" pipe. Reducing to 1" will still work but you will lose lots of flow. Can you at least use 1.25" TF line or better yet 1.5"? I have a 1.5" sap TF pump that is 1.5" and is the same style as the Northern one. I got it at TSC and I used it to pump 900' thru 1" pipe in the past but mine has about a 15' drop. I carry the pump to the tank the first time and pump to the truck, it takes 40 minutes to push 280 gal to the truck. For subsequent trips I pull from the road (at the truck) and it takes 55 minutes to pull the sap with the TF line already full. I am trying to change the TF line to 1.5" for the lower 600-650' using 400' I bought new for the task and 200-250' I had left over from my wet/dry lines. Then at the top I'll use 1.25 from there to the tank. If I get this set I'll post the pumping times on the larger pipe. I'm hoping to cut the TF time pulling to under 30 minutes and 20 minutes would be better. I haul 2 such tanks per load when the sap flow gets better.

[miller maple]

It does drop off about 15 feet after the 70 ft climb. And the climb is gradual climb over 800 to 900 feet then crests the hill and goes the rest of the way down to the holding tank. So I'm wondering if once the sap crests the hill if it will almost create a siphon once it is coming out of the other end at the top and take some strain off the pump

[Machinist67]

You do subtract the 15ft from the orginial 70ft so it does help a little bit.

[Balsam Hills]

Ok thanks for the info. The other option I was lookin at was getting a deep well submersible pump and runing it of a generator

A deep well submersible would be another good option. At the end of the season, you could put the pump away but you'd still have a generator to use any time.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I use a setup that pumps roughly 120 ft verticle, with a 1500 ft distance, then drops about the same. I use a deep well pump on a generator. Now what I do here is I rewired the shut off switch and connected it to a float so that I can start the generator, and then when the tank is empty the float goes down and shuts off the generator. That way I do not need to be at the tank the whole time it is pumping. This will allow you not to worry about how fast it pumps.

[spud]

Thad,

I assume there is no check valves and whatever is left in the pipe goes back to the tank. What size pump do you have? Does it lay flat in the tank for cooling purposes or does it stand up? What size pipe do you use for pumping the 1500 feet? If I set my other section of woods up next season I will be pumping 1500-2000 feet but only about 50 feet up or so. I will have power in the sap house and a 2800 gallon tank. Thanks

Spud

[miller maple]

i was going to ask the same thing that spud just asked.

[Thad Blaisdell]

In a deep well pump you can remove the check valve. And yes it is removed. But what you need to put in is a shut off. So that when you are done pumping and want to wash the tank all the sap stays in the pipe. I am using a 1.5 hp from grainger. works beautiful. I have it on a 1 inch line, did not care about the shear volume just looking to get it up and over the hill.

Now the first year I built an elaborate 4 in pipe with a T to the drain, worked good but a pain, last year I just threw it in and away we go.

This was one of those things that worked right the first time and would do it again if needed. The total length of pipe from tank to sugar house is just shy of a mile actually. But the uphill is 1500 of that.

[miller maple]

Another question is it a 2 wire or 3 wire and what is the difference between the two

[Thad Blaisdell]

I use a 2 wire.

difference between the two

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?14991-2-wire-vs-3-wire-pumps

[miller maple]

ok im considering trying to pump it with a gas powered pump and thoughts or conserns with this, and if i do go with a gas powered pump is there a chance of the seal going out between the pump and the motor and getting oil in the sap. just wondering?