Price per tap on a gravity lease

[steam maker]

Ok so im sure theres a thread somewhere on this but here goes , had a verbal lease with a guy for years on sbout 450 taps , the old guy passed on and his daughter took over, the daughter does not live around me and has asked the tax collector not to give her number out . Now she thinks that i owe her for back payments on taps , im almost ready to hook the line to the back of my truck and drive away with it but ive been tapping them for years and am stuborn and dont wanna walk away. So i did some research on the internet and found her actual name and narrowed it down to one number. Have called number several times and left messages no responce back !!!! I know she gets the calls cause the tenant said something about it . So the question is if she calls back what should i give her for a price per tap , most r happy with a little money and syrup but i have a feeling shes gonna want lots of money

[bill m]

I am paying $1.00 per tap for 600

[Dave Y]

.50 is a good place to start for gravity taps, and no more than .75. That s my thinking.

[adk1]

I agree with Dave y but for someone that doesn't know anything about making syrup, the differences between gravity and non gravity and how much syrup u should make per tap I would be prepared to provide her with some education. Plus the variable of being a poor sap year...

[wiam]

Gravity or vacuum or buckets or poor year should have nothing to do with price per tap

[adk1]

I believe it does if this gal is thinking that each tap is worth $20 pr something. They are all variables that affect the average price per tap for everyone. Just my opinion. However I do not rent taps either.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

We currently lease 4 sugar bushes all are paid . Some want syrup , cream , candy, some want money and some want both. Each year I speak with each family and address any concerns they might have about payment. I have 3 bushes on vacuum 1 gravity, I dont pay anymore for one or the other only by tap count. That being said it equates to about $1.00 per tap. For instance 500 taps is $500.00 but those taps earn me 125 gallons of syrup on gravity and if vacuum is used about 200 gallons of syrup. At bulk price that is over $3000.00 on gravity and over $5000.00 on vacuum . Is it worth it to me? Yes that is why I tap them. I understand about the expenses and I watch them , these bushes are close to my sugarhouse and all 4 families are fantastic to work with. 2 of these bushes have been leased for over 20 years and 1 over 30 years. Treat those people right from day one and you will have life long friendship.

[Maplewalnut]

Gravity or vacuum or buckets or poor year should have nothing to do with price per tap

Wiam-

I agree predicting the weather should not be figured in but I would certainly be willing to pay more per tap knowing I will get more sap on vacuum. I would also go as far as say price should be refective of hard vs soft maple knowing % sugar on average is different. And then if you are talking red vs sugar on vacuum well thats a whole different calculation. I agree no higher than .75 for gravity, and only when its tubing on vacuum with easy access would I go closer to $1.00.

Mike

Mike

[spud]

Gravity or vacuum or buckets or poor year should have nothing to do with price per tap

I agree 100%

Spud

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I agree 100%

Spud I agree as well. Right now my taps are all on vacuum, But next year I am going to set up between 300-400 taps on 3/16 tubing just for an experiment and I am going to pay landowner the same price I pay him for the vacuum taps I have on his property. Reason for not putting these on vac. is I cannot get pitch back to the SH. for these ones and I do not want to run vac. line with another releaser for a mile just for 400 taps. Wow Spud, we agree on something. Imagine that:lol:
Neil

[adk1]

ok, so I guess it sounds as though I need an education as to what dictates a price per tap..just in case at some point I look for taps that I do not own. Where did this .75 cents per tap come from? Or this $1 per tap come from? Has to be based upon something. You cant just tell a landowner, who knows nothing about producing maple syrup that "its just the going rate".

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Adk: Heres my thinking $3000.00 for gravity based on this , I change mainline every 6 years and latterals every 6 years , drops every year , new check valve on vacuum every year those costs are as follows 1. Mainsline and latterals $500.00 each year. 2.drops are roughly $ 165.00 every year . 3. Checkvalve are $175.00 every year. $500.00 for the owner each year . 4. $500.00 for evaporator fuel ( not as efficient as some) 5. $300.00 to get the sap to the sugar house daily. Total each year that cost me $2640.00 , I make $360.00 from 125 gallons of syrup. These figures are based on bulk pay for syrup. I will never say that I have not sold a gallon of syrup retail that was produced with their sap, as I would be lying , therefore I can pay more per tap because I do sell retail . If you base it on total bulk sales you cant pay thay much. My theory. Mike

[adk1]

exactly, so it is based upon something. Whatever it is, when you approach a person to tap their trees, you need to provide them with some explanation as to what you are willing to pay them per tap and why. Like I said, someone that knows nothing about making syrup might think that their taps are worth $20 a piece.

[Maplewalnut]

Good discussion here are my thoughts. Its business so make sure you and the landowner benefit. Sweeter Creations outlines tubing costs well so I will leave that alone. Here a some more thoughts.

Start with the price per gallon bulk. We can all agree to that number.
Most can agree we can not predict the weather so take that out of the equation (although I can argue a bad year on gravity can be decent year on vac)
Next assign a gpt number you expect. Certainly not the same for gravity and vacuum (although the 3/16 tube is interesting Neil)
Reds vs Sugars??? do you care?? I dont on vacuum but on gravity reds are more inconsistent
Next the intangibles...how is land pitched? Electric close by? How is access to the taps (drive right up to tank or have to pump a distance?), how far from sugarhouse
These all play into what I can pay per tap...not saying that someone else cant pay more or less but again that the beauty of capitalism. Educate the landowner and outline your costs and what you expect to make. Goes along way to justifying a perceived high or low number.

[BreezyHill]

I know from a friends stand point that owns property and is paid $300 for taps and sees the producer making a living of his trees and about the same off another location it seems unfair in the land owners point of view.

But the producer shows him the cost of equipment, supplies and time; and the producer claims he isn't making much at all.

While I can see both sides I think there needs to formula that tappers can use to show land owners a value based price point.

There is a huge difference from gravity to 20" to 28" and this needs to be addressed to the land owner in a way they can grasp. The guy that is running 28" is incurring some additional expense over the gravity system producer. Granted there is more flow from high vac. I run high vac on an inexpensive system; so should I pay more than a producer that has an expensive system, though it took years to educate and perfect a system to modify an inexpensive pump to pull high vac?

The person that sells sap has a general guide for what the product is worth.

So lets hear some true numbers of feet guys have in mains, laterals, etc and I will input the data in a spread sheet and we can come to a range for gravity, low vac of +-15" mid at +-20" and high of 25" & +. Include the size of the mains, wet/dry, and if you use CV or annual spouts.

So lets give an example:
Mid Vac
750' of W/D mains 1"
250' of 3/4 mains
300 taps spouts on 2yr cycle
drops 4yr cycle
mains 10 yr cycle
7 rolls for laterals

Some operations will be to one extreme while others to the other...example:
High Vac
I have one bush that will be redone next season with:
2400' of W/D 1.25 mains
500' 1" mains
350 season taps
drops 3 yr cycle
lats 10yr cycle
8 rolls for lats

If we can get around 30 people to input their info we can get a range of prices and come to a relatively accurate average.

I will post the result depending on how many respond, don't want to get behind if a bunch respond so I will shoot for every other day for the next week.

Lets see how we can help each other here!

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Breezy Hill : small bush next to house is pretty accurate so I will give it a try with the figures : 2500 feet 3/4 mainline, 5000 feet 5/16 latteral lines 1000 feet 5/16 for drops , 500 stubby spouts, 425 tees, 90 end loop connectors, 100 3/4 inch saddles for mainline, 500 check valve adapters, 2500 feet #9 wire, med vacuum 20 inches ( I have a conde #3 gas powered 5.5hp honda motor), 1000 gal stainless tank , small releaser Bernard 216 ( up to 800 taps) 8x12 sap house for vac pump and stainless tank. A guard dog ( padlock ) for sap house door. I think I have it all listed should be pretty close though. Mike

[adk1]

I honestly think that even weather is important to discuss when talking to a person who doesnt know the maple syrup industry and trying to rent their taps. I say this because you are going to pay the person for the tap rental whether it is a banner year or a crappy year. Nobody knows until its over. I think its another variable that is important, education wise, to discuss with the landowner. Obviously not the most important variable, but a variable none the same. Just my 2 cents.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

I agree Adk 1 , but with the long leases that ive had I take the good with bad, they average out . What ever your agreements are make sure they are in writing and the most important part that each side is happy with the agreement.

[BreezyHill]

After putting Sweets data in a spread sheet on a 5 yr amortization the cost / tap is $2.67 and 10 yr is $1.75 for cost/ tap. It cost about $10.21 / tap for the initial costs.
If we figure a cost of sap at $.50/ gal the yield rates of syrup per tap of x will return $/tap

.2g = $3.60
.3g = $5.40
.4g = $7.20
.5g = $9.00
.6g = $10.80
If we use strictly a gravity system the 5 yr is $1.69 and $1.09 for 10 yrs. Simple took off the value of releaser and pump and gas. On gravity I would surmise the .2 gallons syrup yield would be doable so a 5 year lease at $1 a tap will bring cost/ tap to $2.69 leaving you with $.91/tap profit or $455 and a 10 yr lease would get you $2.09 cost and $1.51/ tap profit or $755.
I did not take into consideration interest on investment, labor, etc.

Seems to me that the length of an agreement is very important to the profitability of a bush for the tapper as well as yield. The more you can get out of the bush the better chance in a year you have to make a return on investment and any profit.

Maybe one could consider a flat lease amount and a profit sharing clause. If it is a bad year SOL, but on a good your you could pay an extra 5 or 10% to make a land owner feel more appreciated. Realistically you are only talking another $50 or so but that is 10% of the lease in a year for the land owner.

On the other hand on a high vac system we are talking a totally different animal and maybe 2% is more inline, as that would be around $80 or a 16% increase in the lease price.

Get me some more numbers and I will feed the PC.

Ben

[Hop Kiln Road]

I share crop with the owners of my offsite orchards. This fairly shares the risks. I meter the sap as it's collected every day. As part of the deal, I fertilize and thin. Two of the properties have gone under conservation easements and maple production has been incorporated into the easements.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Ben : I dont think I'm getting this right . I change my drops every year if they are only 2 feet long thats 2 rolls of tubing or $106.00 just in tubing for the drops or $.21 each tap or 20 % of the value?

[BreezyHill]

I entered a 2yr cycle on 500 2' drops..at $50/500' for $100. Send me an email at bhffeed@msn.com and I will send the file that way.
The $21 cents will be half since the drops have a 2 yr cycle. So only $50 per year. Looking at the spread sheet will make more sense to you I think.

I know that it was an eye opener for me. Didn't realize how costly some items can be or how important a long term lease will be to making a profit on non owned land.

It really does show that washing lines can affect the bottom line over time. We have washed for a long long time. Besides we enjoy thinning the squirrels down and only occasionally have damage. But we only use a 20% Clorox solution and rinse of spouts. Easy to see in the color tubing that it is working. The mains also get a 5 gallon slub of solution and 15 gallons of rinse.

Last season was .47g/t and my goal this season is .55. More dry lines over the brook and a few new mains to reduce the tap count and length of lats should do the trick. But now I am seeing that a little more $ in mains is worth a lot, when it comes to reducing the amount of lats in the woods.

The key to profitability is management: get more sap per tap and more retail sales.

This has been a great thread...Thanks to the starter!

Ben

[SeanD]

This is an interesting thread. I'm not arguing one price over another, though I have my own. I've just followed the crowd from research on here.

I may have missed it in the math (which is quite possible), but it seems like the costs you are calculating are ending at the sugarbush. Did you factor in tanks, pumps, transport vehicles and time to get the sap back to the sugarhouse and into the evaporator? What about hidden expenses like insurance, electricity, labor, etc.? Those have to be spread out across all of a producer's taps whether they are leased or owned.

Big initial equipment purchases like an evaporator, RO, sugarhouse construction, etc. are carried over from year to year until they are paid off, right? What about unforeseen expenses like damage and repairs?

I'm not knocking your work to quantify a fair price. I'd like to see where it goes. It's just that when I think about what goes into an ounce of syrup over four seasons, the expenses are more than the cost of the basic equipment in the bush during the season.

Thanks for working on this,
Sean

[Thad Blaisdell]

I would have to say that so far people have made this way way to complicated. To me its easy math. On high vacuum most any sugarbush is worth $1.00 easy. Then it can go up or down from there on a few points. How close it is, power, access, # taps. Now for a gravity system its a proven fact that you will make half or less in syrup production. So there you go. Now you have to ask yourself how bad you want it, that may change the total cost as well.

[Dave Y]

Making things complicated is what this sight is all about. Every subject is thought about, talked about,discussed, thought about again, rediscovered, rediscussed, disagreed upon. and then forgotten. Instead of thinking and then go and doing. The only reason I come to this site or the otherone any more is for the entertainment value. and -18degs.

[adk1]

I think this thread did make the point that there are several variables to what constitutes the price per tap. My main point from the beginning was that when you approach someome to tap their maple trees whom may not understand anything to do with making maple syrup, you should be prepared with some information as to what dictates a price per tap. Like I said, someone may think that $20 per tap is what they should get because that "syrup is so expensive to buy"...but, once you provide alittle eductation, they will come to understand why you are offering $.50 cents or $1.00 max.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Dave Y : I think the only one confused here was me . Maybe I am paying to much maybe not enough, if thats entertainment for some ( 800 plus people read this thread ) your welcome . I try to learn from the people on this site to better manage my business. At no time did I find it amusing but informational. Like I stated earlier make sure both sides are happy. Mike

[BreezyHill]

Yes I am a micro manager...but I was taught to watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. Besides what is the point in reading anything if you cant smile and even laugh from time to time.

Yes this analysis was only for the sap to the tank. To many variables after the tank to take into account to get an average without thousands of producers info.

I would have to say that Thad is slightly off. I don't think that on gravity it would even be worth half without at least a ten year lease and you had a line washer to wash the gravity lines. After you figure in the time spent setting it all up and tapping every year you will still be in the red. But if you are looking at entertainment value then by all means it is entertaining and a great work out. So you saved the gym membership also.

SC there is nothing wrong with learning from others mistakes...it cost you less too. That is what makes this such a good site. People of all different back grounds, putting their spin on a traditional farming job and sharing their success and failures.

[Sugarmaker]

Folks,
I pay a gallon of syrup for every 100 taps. Syrup retail price today is $55.00. I deliver the syrup to the tree owners door in std containers. Seems to work out ok so far. Yes there are a lot of little and big factors that go into the cost of making syrup. (I did finally decide to change 1/3 of my drop lines after 6 years.) I have no main lines no electric or pumps in the bush. Also made .33 gallons of syrup per tap last year on gravity systems with 5/16 tubing. I applaud folks for looking at the cost details. Almost every operation is different and that's good. Like farming you don't have to do it the same way. My operation is small and more of a hobby business. I still try to have fun be keep some cash flowing. Most of the time it seems to flow out faster then in.
Just rambling, sorry. You guys keep right on working the numbers. Maybe I am too old school and near the low end of what folks pay to rent trees.

Regards,
Chris

[Thad Blaisdell]

I would have to say that Thad is slightly off. I don't think that on gravity it would even be worth half without at least a ten year lease and you had a line washer to wash the gravity lines. After you figure in the time spent setting it all up and tapping every year you will still be in the red. But if you are looking at entertainment value then by all means it is entertaining and a great work out. So you saved the gym membership also.



So exactly how am I off? I would not do a vacuum lease unless it was 7-10 years. Personally I would not even consider a gravity lease if it were free. To me it is way more work than it is ever going to be worth. If you are doing it for fun then that is the value. But to make money on gravity you are kidding yourself.

[BreezyHill]

Thad, I think you were being to generous with giving 50 cents a tap. Generousity is a good trait...as long as it isn't affecting the bottom line to much. The last statement is what I truly would have expected you to say and I wish you had led with that statement.

My intent was to show in true dollars and cents that a gravity lease is not a profitable endeavor unless one factors in the entertainment and enjoyment value unless it is over a long time and one is content on leaving th lines andmains for a lengthy time. One could still change spouts annually to increase production by keeping the spouts sanitary on installation.

Some times we need to be a little harsh, to show the sheer reality of a situation and to point out the value of vacuum to those that are starting their journey into Maple Production.

To start on gravity and lay the lines for vacuum down the road is fine, but this is not a cheap business and we should never kid ourselves to think otherwise.

We all have to start somewhere but nobody ever plans to fail...they fail to plan.

So Thanks for helping to make the point, that gravity for the fun of it is great; but to make a profit one needs to look at vacuum.

[bill m]

I would think some of the most important things to consider when trying to come up with a price per tap rental fee is:
1) How close to your sugar house are they? Closer - pay more, farther - pay less. Trucking is expensive.
2) How good is the sugar bush? Good trees and spacing with big crowns or small trees widely spaced.
3) How bad do you need these taps? Are there other places available or are good stands of maple hard to find?

[wiam]

I would think some of the most important things to consider when trying to come up with a price per tap rental fee is:
1) How close to your sugar house are they? Closer - pay more, farther - pay less. Trucking is expensive.
2) How good is the sugar bush? Good trees and spacing with big crowns or small trees widely spaced.
3) How bad do you need these taps? Are there other places available or are good stands of maple hard to find?

I think that if you add proximity to electricity to that and you just abut got it

[Hop Kiln Road]

Vacuum or not, Gentlemen, nobody is going to make a profit, by current definition, in the agricultural production maple until the government either bans high fructose corn syrup or institutes a price support.

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

My thoughts are start at .50 for gravity and 1.00 for vacuum. If you want the lease bad enough you will pay what they want!! You can always sweeten the pot with se syrup too. It all comes down to how bad you want the lease and what you are willing to pay.


Scott


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wiam]

Vacuum or not, Gentlemen, nobody is going to make a profit, by current definition, in the agricultural production maple until the government either bans high fructose corn syrup or institutes a price support.
Must be I define profit different. I make good money. My first year boiling my own sap again, I sold 1/2 my crop bulk and paid for my RO and evaporator.

[BreezyHill]

Bruce, while I hear you, and understand the position. I do not feel that it is the responsibility of the tax payer to support the Maple Industry. In my opinion it is the responsibility of each operation to cultivate a marked and to feed that market.
Our operation has been around since 1971 on a family owned farm since 1907. My family prior to this farm owned a pottery business. As the country evolved the pottery business shrunk until it could no longer support itself and it closed. During the hi point of our operation we tapped just over 2000. This season with the not so suttle pushing of my sons we are going to be back around 5-800 depending solely on how much time there is to get trees tapped.
In the past the vast majority of the syrup was sold bulk while the remainder was sold thru farmers markets and the family and friends.
Now I have cultivated a market that with a few more hours of presentations I will be into the bulk purchasing business; as there is no way we can produce enough syrup off our farm to meet this newly developed market.
Some would say that I have a slave labor force with three teenage boys and their girlfriends and classmates; while I say it was just a matter of giving youth a fun activity to do instead of sitting on a couch playing video games. Yes I turned a vegetarian into a meat eater and a girl that thought that living in the village was the best to thinking that there is nothing to do in the village.
Work is not work if you can paint them a picture of the end goal and the road to get to the goal; suddenly it is a fun activity. My sons have friends texting asking if they can come over and help put in hay, lay sap lines, cut fire wood, pick rocks, welding new tools to make jobs easier, pulling weeds in the garden, harvesting the garden, etc.

They all love to help and know the end goal is to teach other kids and adults that farming is cool and without farmers you will be hungry; and during the day they are going to be tired and have eaten some really good angus beef, some garden produce or at least had some good pancakes and real maple syrup.

We all have the potential to sell all that we make to a hungry retail market. It is just a matter of finding that market, developing the desire for our products, and then filling that market with the best product we can make...because since the reality is that that bulk syrup you sold...it all went to a retail market somewhere.

[adk1]

This is what I thought..plenty of variables, all of what I indicated early on in this thread should be considered..

[PACMAN]

So exactly how am I off? I would not do a vacuum lease unless it was 7-10 years. Personally I would not even consider a gravity lease if it were free. To me it is way more work than it is ever going to be worth. If you are doing it for fun then that is the value. But to make money on gravity you are kidding yourself.I had 400 taps on gravity last year and they created there own vac. The pitch of the laterals are 10 degree slope.I have made enough to put in 200 more taps this year and managed to put a good amount of cash away.But I also have a lot of trees to tap. The gravity taps are a means to pay for a vacume system.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I had 400 taps on gravity last year and they created there own vac. The pitch of the laterals are 10 degree slope.I have made enough to put in 200 more taps this year and managed to put a good amount of cash away.But I also have a lot of trees to tap. The gravity taps are a means to pay for a vacume system.

not trying to offend you but how much syrup did you make on 400 taps?

[PerryFamily]

I "pay" $1.00 per tap on gravity one vac. Thankfully all they want is syrup. I lease almost every tap and usually am willing to pay whatever they want!!

[Sugarmaker]

I think we are getting a little away from what we should pay per tap. But Thad has a interesting question.

So how much syrup can the renter expect to make per tap? That is going to help base your payment to the tree owner.

I would say from what I have read here and heard that the amount of syrup per tap can vary from a low of less than .25 gallon of syrup per tap up to maybe a high of over .5 gallons of syrup per tap. So for bulk syrup your going to gross $7 to $15 of salable syrup per tap before any expenses are considered.

Seems that's where the payment should be based from. And your comfort level with the payment. The amount of time, or effort, or expense, or weather fluctuations, or tubing expense, really doesn't matter to the tree owner that's your business.

So for ease of math if the syrup can be sold for $10 per tap is 5% to 10% a fair amount for the payment? Seems about right.

Regards,
Chris

[Hop Kiln Road]

Breezy -

Sorry, was working on something else and didn't check this. No exactly the opposite. We taxpayers are subsidizing cane sugar, corn and fructose and if those supports were removed then maple demand would increase.

I'm right with you: being a PTP, your parenting strategy is right on target! Your future return on parenting and education will far exceed anything you make tapping maple trees.

In my world profit is a 30% to 40% margin after taxes and paying yourself a wage comparable with your abilities. In reading these posts for the past 6 or 7 years, I'd say many sugar makers have a remarkably valuable skill set, probably in the $100 hour range - yeah, a little shy of the bad attorneys - however, sugar makers can't realize their potential because the market place is tilted.

Thad, will stop posting and get Warren's new RO on line.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Thad, will stop posting and get Warren's new RO on line.

Waiting on pieces parts.....

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Waiting on pieces parts.....
excuses excuses
my 3 way valves came in yesterday

[BAP]

Gravity or vacuum or buckets or poor year should have nothing to do with price per tap
I agree. It should be looked at like any other land use rent. Should look at the production capability of the land and soil, or in this case the quality of the trees, then determine how much it is worth. How the producer chooses to harvest the crop, is only the producers concern, not the owner.

[PACMAN]

Thad I made 71 gal. and I stoped because I was making grade B and didnt know what that non maple smell was,LOL. The sap ran for almost a week and a half when I shut down, live and learn.How much more would I have made? Honest guess,maybe another 50 gal.not bad on gravity.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Thad I made 71 gal. and I stoped because I was making grade B and didnt know what that non maple smell was,LOL. The sap ran for almost a week and a half when I shut down, live and learn.How much more would I have made? Honest guess,maybe another 50 gal.not bad on gravity.

So you made less than a quart per tap and that was in roughly 4.5 weeks and then the last week and a half you would not have made as much as you think, that last bit of nasty is usually much much lower in sugar and much harder to make, and in the quantity you are talking just plain not worth it.

Now as far as profit goes, If those same taps were on vacuum you would easily double your production, my guess is in the 175-200 gallon range. so that is over $3000 more if it were just in bulk price. That is why I say gravity is just not profitable.

[BAP]

Funny how when people start throwing out dollar figures for vacuum verses gravity, they conveniently leave out the extra cost of added equipment from the equation.

[Thad Blaisdell]

It might be because to me it is almost irrelevant. Now I didn't use retail numbers either. But if you cant set yourself up and pay for everything in two years I would be very surprised. Now if you buy used equipment it will be worth just as much in 2 years as you paid so no real loss. And I also didn't get into the bad years when gravity doesn't make enough syrup to put on your own pancakes.... yet vacuum produces. My argument is that if you are in it to make a profit and you are not using vacuum you are not really in it to make a profit.

[Hop Kiln Road]

Thad -

I've seen a couple pictures of your operation and gotten a partial description from WS; no question, impressive workmanship, self-reliant and economical.

But back to gravity operations. A 200 to 800 gravity tap operation when operated with reasonable skill will cashflow regardless of the weather or the cost of taps. And to keep something complicated simple in this discussion, by cashflow I mean the money spent on equipment and tap rental will be recouped by the sale of syrup. Thus any price in the range of tap prices discussed, based on the various sound reasons the producers have given, should cashflow.

But you are right: to be profitable, which is a different beast, in a mechanical based production business, weather dependent to boot, one needs to be on or ahead of the cutting edge.

[Thad Blaisdell]

The big factor here to be considered is time..... Plus I remember 2009 I had a great year on vacuum, but gravity people made almost nothing. If you took away my vacuum and I could not use one at all I do not think I would be in the maple business.

[wdchuck]

I'll side with Thad on this one: I've lobbied a few small producers on the value of vacuum. If gravity works for them, and that fits within what they want to accomplish in their operation, that's fine. However, after a year or two of bad production (with the same amount of work in setting up, production, and cleanup), they've all installed vacuum and are pretty happy with the results. Even if its a hobby, a little extra cash to justify expenses doesn't hurt things.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

The big factor here to be considered is time..... Plus I remember 2009 I had a great year on vacuum, but gravity people made almost nothing. If you took away my vacuum and I could not use one at all I do not think I would be in the maple business.I thought today was the big day..... you better get off the computer and start drilling holes!

[PACMAN]

Thad,I think you are missing my point. First, I dont have to rent my taps I own all my own trees,around 10,000 of them. Second, as I said before, The gravity system im ussing now is only a means to pay for vacume system.Third.The sugar content was 2.4 when I shut down last year. My season lasts a little longer here,but I also start later as my bush is at 2200 feet in elivation. so winter tends to stay longer. And I agree if I had to lease taps I wouldnt bother with it,but it does make a profit.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I thought today was the big day..... you better get off the computer and start drilling holes!

Heck that last post was at 6:44 give me a break.... besides I can do in a half a day what anyone from Norwich can do in a full day.... 1100 done today. 2 people. And we stopped for lunch. Did all of my steep banks and nasty spots. Tomorrow hoping to do 13-1400 more.

I will put out my recommendations now for the new CDL smart spout that is white.... I truly believe this is going to be a killer spout to have. Also I switched drill bits, I have always used a lapierre bit, I switched to CDL's and it is a much better bit. Very happy with that change. Making things easier and better that is the name of the game.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Heck that last post was at 6:44 give me a break.... besides I can do in a half a day what anyone from Norwich can do in a full day.... 1100 done today. 2 people. And we stopped for lunch. Did all of my steep banks and nasty spots. Tomorrow hoping to do 13-1400 more.

I will put out my recommendations now for the new CDL smart spout that is white.... I truly believe this is going to be a killer spout to have. Also I switched drill bits, I have always used a lapierre bit, I switched to CDL's and it is a much better bit. Very happy with that change. Making things easier and better that is the name of the game.Yeah, I bet with that salmon robe and flamingo pink flipflops you can fly through the woods like Superman! That new HE unit must make it quicker to tap?