Sap ladder with Guzzler pump

[Drew Pond Maple]

Just wondering if I could use a guzzler diaphragm pump to run a sap ladder?
I saw Flat Landers video of a sap ladder in another thread but don't know how to do it.
My mainline is 3/4" with 140 taps
Lift is aprox 12'. From there it's about 50' to my sugar shack.
This set up would allow me to not have to pump sap up to the shack.
Do I just put a star fitting at the end of the lower main and one at the beginning of the upper?
Also do I need to add a valve to introduce air or will there be enough air from the trees?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[whitetail farms]

im not much of a vacuum guru nor do I know much on the guzzlers, but from what ive read guzzlers don't move much air and aren't good for sap ladders,if they could do one at all I would say it could only be about a foot of lift, but to build a ladder get a threaded 4 way connecter and screw it into a elbow thats a threaded female on one side and barbs on the other then connect the 4ways together with 5/16 tubing.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

AND I HAD LIKE 13" VAC ON UPPER SIDE AND LIKE SIX OR SOMETHING ON LOW SIDE OF LADDER sorry for caps
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?20280-bosworth-guzzler-5-in-vacuum-at-pump&p=219910#post219910

[maplesyrupstove]

I used a vacuum pump most of the time, but play with my guzzler pump to. First year I had it on 75 taps, next year I had it on 214 taps, it would suck 15 " of vacuum. When the taps were tight, I have to check them each day. Then I had it on my 6 foot sap ladder an it works there to. There is pictures in photobucket of it working before the ladder. I rebuilt it this year in my sap house on the wall so it will drain and not freeze.I make another video this year when I get sap. I got a new vacuum gauge so I can check the vacuum at the trees this year.

[BreezyHill]

I am not familiar with the guzzler pump.
But a diaphragm pump should work but the ladder would be different in its mode of action. Where in a vacuum ladder you are looking to introduce air to help expedite the sap flow up the ladder on the diaphragm system air would be your down fall.
The setup of the ladder would be the same and would likely be able to be accomplished by a single 6 way star; as 6 5/16 is nearly equal to the volume of a 3/4" mains.
Yes on elbows at ends of mains. Supply to the ladder is usually down on a vacuum system and I would put it up for a diaphragm system, and the upper star would be down.
The switch in directions is to have as straight of a path as possible with the least chance of a air lock.

The height is what concerns me. I had a spot that I was shock to find was 52 feet of elevation change as I was thinking 30 max. Your 12 should be do able as long as the 15" note in the thread is your capacity also. To be on the safe side you may want to do a step ladder and make two ladders instead of 1. Two of half the height of the total will be more efficient and likely provide more vacuum after the ladders. It will in a vacuum ladder, so it should in this style.

We ran our ladders on a sap sucker with good results. The sucker use a rotary meter wheel to pull the sap. Nice little pump but a lot of maintance. The flexible hose of the unit can fail without warning and is very messy when it lets loose.

The key to this system as air tight as possible. Seat those taps snugly as possible without splitting the tree, tightly clamp all mains joints and check those lines for bubbles to find every little leak you can.

To many leaks will sink the SS Guzzler,(Sap Sucking Guzzler).

Good luck and post your results and what you learn. This is a GREAT thread for the newly tapped. Nobody should over look trees that are in their bush due to elevation; and these pumps are a great alternative to get people started in this business!

Good Luck!

Ben

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Picture on post above is a video click on it

[Drew Pond Maple]

Picture on post above is a video click on it

Yes I did watch the video last night.
Really neat, just not sure how you set it up with the star fittings and such.
What is the total lift and pipe size?

thanks

[Drew Pond Maple]

I am not familiar with the guzzler pump.
But a diaphragm pump should work but the ladder would be different in its mode of action. Where in a vacuum ladder you are looking to introduce air to help expedite the sap flow up the ladder on the diaphragm system air would be your down fall.
The setup of the ladder would be the same and would likely be able to be accomplished by a single 6 way star; as 6 5/16 is nearly equal to the volume of a 3/4" mains.
Yes on elbows at ends of mains. Supply to the ladder is usually down on a vacuum system and I would put it up for a diaphragm system, and the upper star would be down.
The switch in directions is to have as straight of a path as possible with the least chance of a air lock.

The height is what concerns me. I had a spot that I was shock to find was 52 feet of elevation change as I was thinking 30 max. Your 12 should be do able as long as the 15" note in the thread is your capacity also. To be on the safe side you may want to do a step ladder and make two ladders instead of 1. Two of half the height of the total will be more efficient and likely provide more vacuum after the ladders. It will in a vacuum ladder, so it should in this style.

We ran our ladders on a sap sucker with good results. The sucker use a rotary meter wheel to pull the sap. Nice little pump but a lot of maintance. The flexible hose of the unit can fail without warning and is very messy when it lets loose.

The key to this system as air tight as possible. Seat those taps snugly as possible without splitting the tree, tightly clamp all mains joints and check those lines for bubbles to find every little leak you can.

To many leaks will sink the SS Guzzler,(Sap Sucking Guzzler).

Good luck and post your results and what you learn. This is a GREAT thread for the newly tapped. Nobody should over look trees that are in their bush due to elevation; and these pumps are a great alternative to get people started in this business!

Good Luck!

BenIs this a scenario where I could reduce the star from a 6 to a 4 because the pump really has no cfm?
Just thinking that a smaller volume will increase vac making it easier to pull sap up vertically.

[BreezyHill]

I would not suggest that. The issue is the carry capacity of the 3/4" main is equal to 5.77 5/16" lines. By only using 4 you are limiting the capacity of the main by nearly30%. Plus figure in the friction loss of pulling the sap up the lines and you will want all six. I have tried the 4 lines when I did not have as many taps on a mains as the 6 way could handle and found that sap pooled in the end of the main at the ladder. Connecting the last two lines cleared the mains and jumped the vacuum level up 5". Some how there was an idea that since the sap in a ladder appears to be moving faster in a ladder than in mains that you can use fewer lines to lift the sap. The problem is that you are not only lifting the sap but the gas, and you are looking to continue to have as much vacuum transfer past the ladder as possible.

Take a straw and try to suck a 1/4 cup of water. Now do it again with three straws and if you can do six.

Now if you want to play a trick on a buddy fell the cup with beer. LOL

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Not saying your wrong Breezy
in Verona this year at one of the seminars I attended the speaker who was talking about sap ladders said that used to be a rule of thumb for every ten taps you need one ladder, but he said new studies have shown you can expand the taps per ladder. So the video you watched of my ladder I have 60/65 taps on it so I have 6 ladders. I am going to plug at least one if not two of the ladders and see if there is any difference.

Injecting air into a sap ladder defeats the whole purpose of having vacuum on your lines. Also said by a speaker at Verona who has been sugaring a VERY LONG time.
yes a couple companies sell air injection units but like it is proven for every 1" of vacuum is 5% more sap or less if you want to inject air into your system.

[maple flats]

Agreed, Glen Goodrich at the Verona conference said that he has found that 15 tap/star line works better, however he is talking 25"+ vacuum. Try testing it, put all the spiders on and then clamp off 1 then 2 and maybe even 3 and watch the results. He did emphasize that he only has 1 sap ladder (in his 45,000 tap total). Do anything you can to eliminate the ladder. You might also want to place a tank where you will have the ladder and pump from there. That would however then put the Guzzler 50' out and wouldreguire heat. Another thought with a guzzler, put it out the 50 or even 60', protect it from freezing and just let the guzzler pump the sap up a few feet to continue to the sugarhouse. A Guzzler does both,it pulls and pushes.

[Drew Pond Maple]

Forgive me for asking too many questions, just want to really figure this whole vacuum thing out.
If I need vac to reach all portions of my tubing (I understand a wet/dry system) then why would I want the section of 5/16" between the hook connector and the saddle to be full of sap? That goes against the theory of getting vac to all taps if it's full of sap. Can a slug of sap be pulled creating vac up the lateral?
See this is my confusion here. Doesn't liquid transfer vac also?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

[QUOTE=Drew Pond Maple;236432 ll Can a slug of sap be pulled creating vac up the lateral?
See this is my confusion here. Doesn't liquid transfer vac also?[/QUOTE]
I am far from a vac pro but thats exactly how it works to my knowledge

[BreezyHill]

All I can talk about is my hands on experience and what works on our operation. I have only been doing sap since 1971, and we have been using vacuum on our systems to move sap since the mid 1970's. My dad was a vacuum professional and was always looking to make the system more efficient. Last season we ran 28+" all season long from day 3. We had a pump that didn't fair the summer well. So another was put into service. A Delaval Rotary Vane modified and rebuilt by me.

Injectors are only need on a tight system. They sell them because they work. If they didn't they would not sell them. If you have a leaky system, then there is no need for leakers...you already have them.

If is easy to tell if you need a leaker or not. All you need to do is check your mains at the ladder. If at peak flow there is sap pooling in your mains you need a leaker. If not you already have built one in. If you want to make more sap, install an injector and tighten the system. A leaker will clear the mains and ladder faster providing more vacuum to the system past the ladder. This is my experience and results.

Yes you can increase the number of taps on a ladder as long as all the variables are aligned. Last season we ran 14 on each of the star risers; but we ran out of storage capacity to continue to add more on. Our ladder system elevates a total of 50' in a three step system. Last season we averaged .47 g/t. The goal for this season is .55g/t.

I agree, learn by doing is the best way. And a speaker recommendations are typically a result of his/her experience. My experience is that ladder should not be feared but embraced to make the most of your time, resources and equipment.

Would you take a ten wheeler truck to collect sap with a 500 gallon tank....not if you had a better way...but if your pickup died and the other option was to leave the sap, then by all means fire the old girl up!

Where our ladders are we had, road side tanks, then lines to pump all the way back to the sugar house, and finally ladders. Now all we do is throw a switch and the sap all comes to the sugar house; with no electrical lines or equipment in the bush that is a concern for freezing. The ladders cost less and it is so much easier to no longer haul a drop of sap. Its like the way that in the old days we ran buckets and now tubing. We kicked the bucket habit when tubing was first made in Argyle by a medical tubing company. Best thing we ever did!

Unfortunately I have seen first hand our industry go with trials of equipment and practices; just to find that in the end that not all aspects of a product was studied or reported on. The best example was the tiny pill in the tree to keep the hole healthy longer, or how about the alcohol tubing system sterilizer. They all make sense when the speakers are recommending them and there is always a few individuals that shaker their heads. What I am saying is, that hind sight is 20/20 and not every advancement is functional in every operation or may be fully understood at first; as there are different levels of management and desired results, and this must be considered to utilize equipment most affectively.

I would not consider myself an expert, since this is not my only source of income, but I have a lot of hands on experience with multiply ladders and have figured the way to make them work very well; and willing to share the information with people that desire to use them.

My next siminar is at our County 4-H program. At this I am presenting Maple Syrup Production 101. This is designed to teach from novice to beginner tappers the basics of the Maple Industry; with the answering of questions from novice to current 4-H producers, that wish to take their production to the next level. There is at least one family that plans to attend, that is on gravity tubing and desires to go to vacuum. The 2nd part 201 is the visit to our operation for hands on tapping of trees in a small sugar grove, by the sugar house, and the laying of tubing and connecting the laterals to the mains.

Our intention is to revitalize the old Cornell 4-H Maple Program and to simply gets kids off the couch, away from the electronic toys and back to the woods and learn. In the past their were several Maple Clubs in the state, so it is high time for a swing back to the past. Since some of the participants will not have locations to tap at this time, they will have the option of shadowing our operation and family members as they work in the operation. While this is a pilot program after the results are seen their are other counties in the state that will likely wish to duplicate the program with an operation within their county lines. Due to our location and facilities we are able to host several counties maple programs until an in county site is established.

[BreezyHill]

Drew the answer is yes and no.
Yes the pulling of a slug of sap will produce vacuum.
No, because this is not the most affective way to pull the most vacuum.

The most affective way is to have the line only partially full so that their is a void at the top of the line that will be totally evacuated of air...that is as much as physically possible.

The larger size opening of a saddle into a mains is to increase vac transfer, as it is easier to evacuate air that is able to be compressed rather than a liquid that is not as easy to compress.

Don't forget that a vocuum pump is a compressor that you are using the inlet side rather than the compression side for your work. This was noted earlier as the guzzler can pull as well as push sap. A vacuum pump can pull air as well as push air. It is just that the vacuum pumps most generally used pull better than they push; exept for a Gast pump they do both well certain models as they are used for printing presses application and sap production.

[Drew Pond Maple]

So I did a little experiment with a sap ladder in my garage.
I was able to lift sap(water) 11'6" while maintaining 16" hg. I did this by simulating a tubing system in the woods. I started a 3/4" black pipe with a vac gauge, then sloping down to the pump, about 1/2 way I put a tee in with a valve to suck water from 5 gal. bucket. (to simulate sap entering a line). Then a 4 star(I don't have any 6's), up 11'6" to another star, then sloped to the pump. The discharge of water was about 1 gallon a minute. Not to bad. Then I did another exp. Just replaced the first star with the pump and was able to achieve 27" hg and 1/2 gal per minute. I don't know how this is possible but I did it twice and got the same results bothe times.
I didn't think this pump did this. Now maybe in the woods it might be different, but so far I'm impressed.

Now should I do a sap ladder with 16" that I won't have to pump to the shack every day or

Put the pump in the woods and get maybe 26"-27" and have to pump every night?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Let's see, research shows about a 5% increase in production for every inch of vacuum over 15". 16" to 26" is 10" difference. That is 50% more sap. I know where my pump would be even if I had to walk a few feet.

[Drew Pond Maple]

Let's see, research shows about a 5% increase in production for every inch of vacuum over 15". 16" to 26" is 10" difference. That is 50% more sap. I know where my pump would be even if I had to walk a few feet.Ya,,,,you have an ultra great point Thompson.
Just sucks that I work til 5:pm and live 45 min away.

I guess it all depends on how lazy I am....
and well I'm 39 I am not that lazy. Just old.... Ish

[maple flats]

When did 39 qualify as old, unless it's the same old that jack Benny used for (50 or more?) years? I'm 67 and I have my pumps in the woods. The new lights on a head band are nice, you still have 2 hands free.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

When did 39 qualify as old, unless it's the same old that jack Benny used for (50 or more?) years? I'm 67 and I have my pumps in the woods. The new lights on a head band are nice, you still have 2 hands free.
your legs are pretty short to Flats watch out for deep snow:lol:

[Super Sapper]

Why would you need to pump it to the shack with it in the woods. Use it to pump up to a line that will gravity flow to your shack. You would be using he pump as your ladder.

[BreezyHill]

SS Great Point! Obviously I was a sleep on that one.

I don't know about any one else's sales but I need all the syrup I can get and will still be buying from local guys. So I need as much vac as I can get in the bush. So if you can get a few inches more by putting the pump in the bush. Then in the bush is where she be.

To test the flow of the system the number for peak flow of a tap is .2 gallons/hr under high vac from Steve's research.

So at .5 gal/ min = 30 gal/hr /.2 is 150 taps at peak flow on a 4 way. That is awesome results! that is 37 per riser. I know I cant get that in my 18' ladders. But I still like SS's point to be able to eliminate the ladder and for the freeze factor, a heat lamp that will come on at 35 degrees to warm the pump and a kill switch at 31 on the mains should protect the pump as long as you use a screen in the mains to stop any ice. The CDL unit will eat a diaphragm when it pumps ice.

[Drew Pond Maple]

When did 39 qualify as old, The new lights on a head band are nice, you still have 2 hands free.The old comment was a joke cuz I have had some back problems the last few years and my wife is always saying that i look like an old man when I'm on the couch all weekend and cant move.

I do have one of those head lamp things and it is awesome. Use it every night to load up my wood boiler and to pump sap

[Drew Pond Maple]

I had thought of putting the pump in the woods and pumping sap up to shack, but didn't know how much of the vacuum would be compromised. Also, freezing would be the other major factor.
I would make a box with a light in it to prevent freezing but think that a frozen slug of sap could enter the pump and damage it. The screen seems like a good idea. Or maybe two 90* elbows just before it enters the pump?
Just trying to make this as easy as possible while getting the most sap.
Like I said in my earlier post, I get home a 5:45 at the earliest and sometimes last year it was 20* and my barrels were a little frozen.
Has anyone had good luck with these temperature swicthes?

[BreezyHill]

I totally get the back issue. Fell on the ice just after xmas and fighting it ever since. On the coach now waiting for pills to kick in. I often wonder which is worse the pain or the side affects.

90 elbows would also limit your sap flow so it will limit your vacuum. I use temp switches all the time. Water heaters for the cattle and horses are all on them, I added a couple to my wood furnace to separate the fans and the dampers and increased by burn time by nearly 50%. I like the digital control stats because you can set and control different items at one set point. Like turn on the light bulb heater and shut down the pump.

Ben

[maple flats]

your legs are pretty short to Flats watch out for deep snow:lol:
They may be short, but my feet reach the ground. Consider all the extra length you tall guys need to move to walk. The only time I find my legs are too short is when climbing a steep hill on snowshoes. A real task, as I stand there sideways to the face of the hill and I need to lift my uphill snowshoe what seems like 6' to reach on top of the snow, I do get tired.
You know what, I was telling everyone since I was 17 that I was 5'7", I just got measured a week ago. In the last 50 years I somehow lost 2.5" in height, go figure!

[BreezyHill]

Vertically changed is only a temporary limitation. That's why we have ladders, stools, etc. For taller people we spend our time ducking and whacking our heads off stuff. I remember a customers dairy barn. The original owner was 5 nothing and the vacuum line was low enough for him to reach. Every time I walked in that barn I would not see the vac line thru the brim of my hat and end up on the floor seeing stars. He loved seeing me come thru that door. Funny how he would always be standing in sight of that darn vac line. And laugh so hard every stinkin time. I learned after I got married to not wear hats anymore... after my wife saw the welt on my head one day. She burned my hats...smart lady!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

here is a video of 400 trees running hard on a sap sucker, sap would comes in waves

http://s40.photobucket.com/user/poultneyfiredog18/media/Sugaring/VIDEO0031_zps499e3e1b.mp4.html

[adk1]

That's different. I think the sap sucker is the way to go for my setup. Maybe I can swing one next year. I think I said that last year..haha

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Everyone,
I have read over this whole thing, other than learning being short sucks and being tall sucks too, I also think I got out of it that a guzzler WILL lift sap up a ladder, but it won't be the most efficient way to go. It would be better to use the pump to lift up and finish with gravity down hill. Did I get the gist of that? Our situation is that we have about 60-70 taps before the ladder (about 7 or 8 ft), and 30 after, would it be better to run both to the low spot then pump up to a gravity line to the collection tank?
Thanks
Mike

[The Jones Family Farm]

Hi BreezyHill:

I read your post and wondered if you had some advise. I have a sugar bush with the farthest tree around 2,000 feet away. The land is relatively flat. I have a design to use battery powered Guzzler pumps at two different locations. However, I'm wondering if the Guzzler pump would carry the sap back to the sugar house with a few sap ladders to raise it every 500-700 ft. Would this work even if I used a vacuum pump with a 25-45 CFM rating? I was hoping to use the Guzzler pumps for the first year or two to save money and then transfer those pumps to a remote location to handle a smaller sugar bush in the future.

As a side thought, would a separate Guzzler pump at the sugar shack work if it were dedicated to only bringing the sap back to the sugar shack from 2,000 ft? If so, how would this work? Would I hook it directly to the outlet of the other pump or have it suck the sap from a tank?

[BAP]

Hi BreezyHill:

I read your post and wondered if you had some advise. I have a sugar bush with the farthest tree around 2,000 feet away. The land is relatively flat. I have a design to use battery powered Guzzler pumps at two different locations. However, I'm wondering if the Guzzler pump would carry the sap back to the sugar house with a few sap ladders to raise it every 500-700 ft. Would this work even if I used a vacuum pump with a 25-45 CFM rating? I was hoping to use the Guzzler pumps for the first year or two to save money and then transfer those pumps to a remote location to handle a smaller sugar bush in the future.

As a side thought, would a separate Guzzler pump at the sugar shack work if it were dedicated to only bringing the sap back to the sugar shack from 2,000 ft? If so, how would this work? Would I hook it directly to the outlet of the other pump or have it suck the sap from a tank?
You would have better luck getting responses to your questions if you start your own separate thread than tacking on to the end of a 3 year old thread. You would be better off going with a vacuum pump and releaser than a Guzzler if you need to use ladders. Guzzlers perform well to a point but need liquid flowing through them to maintain good vacuum and you need good steady vacuum to make ladders work properly.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i got my guzzler to do about a 5 ft lift, i think anything over that it will not work. they dont have enough cfm to do the job.