Idea! Bucket system with Airlock spiles.

[Sandersyrup]

This season I'm experimenting with an idea I've had for awhile. An air locking tube on a spile. The theory is that the sap in the curved spot will prevent air from entering the spile but still allow sap to flow through it. I realize that the sap within could become a bacterial playground but my plan is to apply a drop of food grade liquid citric acid into the airlock between sap flows to prevent growth when the buckets sit empty waiting for the next run.

I'm hoping this could be season extender for hobbyists who can spare the extra time acidifying their airlocks. The locks are easy to make too.

I'm taping 3 trees with two spiles each. Each tree will get one 5/16 stainless spile with no airlock as control and the other using my airlock tap. May the best tap win!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/20/vy3eryze.jpg

John

[jmayerl]

Pretty bad idea for many reasons. 1. Adulterating syrup/sap is illegal in most places that I know of. 2 when the tree enters a freeze cycle it develops a negative pressure and anything in the loop will be drawn back into the tree.

[maple flats]

Ditto, don't do it. If you want to prevent bacteria from getting back into the tree, use check valves or the silver bearing taps. Adding even a drop of citric acid will make your syrup illegal to sell as pure maple syrup.

[Sandersyrup]

Do you think if the airlock is flushed and cleaned with sap before an expected sap flow so that no sap is collected containing Citric acid, would that would be ok? I'm not too worried breaking laws really, I produce maybe 2 gallons of sap a year for my immediate family.. not even my mother gets any. Ha!

Additionally I tested them regarding back-flow, from what I have seen, due to the small amount of liquid in the lock the liquid thins out from the suction allowing air bubbles passing through so the liquid itself is unable to climb the tube.. just like any airlock. Now I understand that air is what I am trying to prevent getting to the hole but I am hoping that simply reducing the amount of air to the hole will help.

Again, for those of us with say 3 trees.. I'm looking for way to extend my season. Our area gets funky temps with week long swings in the high 60s and then back down to sap temps and my holes can dry out during these gaps.

[happy thoughts]

I also think this airlock is a bad idea but as for citric acid making syrup illegal for sale, that may not necessarily be true. You'd have to check your own state laws. FDA approved preservatives and defoamers (and salt!) are allowable additives in PA. But what flies as legal here may not fly in another state. Food grade citiric acid is FDA approved to the best of my knowledge. If used and sold in PA, it would need to be listed as an ingredient on the label.

[Sandersyrup]

Just reiterating.. this if for personal consumption. I do realize that if I were a maple producer and sold my syrup in any quantity I would therefore need to adhere to state laws.

This is just a personal experiment for personal use. :)

[Sandersyrup]

Stepping aside from the various laws.. are you guys saying that the risk of getting even a drop of backflow liquid into the hole runs me a higher risk of shortening my season than a constant air flow would?

Also, is the concern that an small amount of acidic (bacteria free) liquid reach the hole and be bad for the tree?

please elaborate?

[steve J]

It would seem to me if you used check flow spouts that solves the issue and no need for bend in tubing either.

[happy thoughts]

Stepping aside from the various laws.. are you guys saying that the risk of getting even a drop of backflow liquid into the hole runs me a higher risk of shortening my season than a constant air flow would?

Also, is the concern that an small amount of acidic (bacteria free) liquid reach the hole and be bad for the tree?

please elaborate?

Yes, even if the actual sap where not to backflow,, contaminated air above the tap is still likely to contaminate the tap hole. Your airlock does not prevent that as a checkvalve does. The sap in the airlock is an excellent reservoir for bacterial growth with access to plenty of air at the outlet to support it. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it :)

[Sandersyrup]

The sap in the airlock is an excellent reservoir for bacterial growth with access to plenty of air at the outlet to support it.

Even when "sanitized" with Citric acid to prevent bacterial growth?

Lets say great care is given to prevent bacteria from growing in the airlock.. and pre cleaning is done to prevent said acid from entering the sap that is boiled. What then is my risk?

Could I theoretically extend my season on buckets?

[jmayerl]

Well if it's just for personal use then just go ahead and use a formaldehyde pill in the tap hole.

[Sandersyrup]

Well if it's just for personal use then just go ahead and use a formaldehyde pill in the tap hole.

Uhhh no thanks! Seems like citric acid is a tad safer. ;) My thinking is if its safe for use in the average salsa on store shelves and thus actually consumed in significantly higher amounts.. perhaps a little would be "OK" to use in an airlock and cleaned out before the sap runs? Many brewers do the same thing when making beer, this is how I got the idea.

[happy thoughts]

Even when "sanitized" with Citric acid to prevent bacterial growth?

Lets say great care is given to prevent bacteria from growing in the airlock.. and pre cleaning is done to prevent said acid from entering the sap that is boiled. What then is my risk?

Could I theoretically extend my season on buckets?

Again I would say yes, You're doing nothing to sanitize the tubing above the airlock or preventing backflow of bacteria into the taphole. And again I'll say check valves would be the cheaper and better alternative imho. But that said, there's no harm in trying your method especially if it's just for home use though it still seems like reinventing the wheel to me when check valves are proven, cheap, and readily available.

[Sandersyrup]

It would seem to me if you used check flow spouts that solves the issue and no need for bend in tubing either.

I was under the impression that Check flow spouts only worked on vacuum and gravity. This idea is for a bucket system of collection. Do you think they would work? Because I agree, they would be vastly superior if they were able to function properly on buckets.

[happy thoughts]

Uhhh no thanks! Seems like citric acid is a tad safer. ;) My thinking is if its safe for use in the average salsa on store shelves and thus actually consumed in significantly higher amounts.. perhaps a little would be "OK" to use in an airlock and cleaned out before the sap runs? Many brewers do the same thing when making beer, this is how I got the idea.

Citric acid is an FDA approved preservative so yes, considered safe. But airlocks in beer and wine production generally just contain water, not a sugar laden medium like sap that provides food for bacteria. What's in your airlock will be replaced constantly as sap flows out of the tree. That includes semding the citric acid you've added into your collection bucket. It's effectiveness would not be a constant. It seems to me that the effectiveness of using citric acid would depend on the timing of sap flow. I think you'd have to time it perfectly to add it at the exact times the pressure gradient between atmosphere and tree favors backflow. Otherwise it's going to flush itself out whenever sap flows outward.

[happy thoughts]

I was under the impression that Check flow spouts only worked on vacuum and gravity. This idea is for a bucket system of collection. Do you think they would work? Because I agree, they would be vastly superior if they were able to function properly on buckets.

I've not used check valves on gravity myself but there are other posters here who have used them and say they work. Try searching the forum for threads about check valves on gravity.

[Sandersyrup]

Ok, I think you guys have convinced me to only try this idea in one tap hole, not all 7. We'll see if it has any effect. I might actually use it like this for two weeks then remove the airlock and continue as usual. Just see if two weeks of this idea helps extend the season in that hole. I will be dumping any sap collected that has CA in it and cleaning the airlock before allowing the buckets to fill.

[Moser's Maple]

a maple tree produces both positive and negative psi. I have seen during a good run a positive reading of 20.... probably could be even higher, just have never witnessed it, I have also see a tree during a good freeze create 10 in of vacuum. this is why in our tubing systems we create drops that are 24-30 in long. it's not just to be able to reach around the tree, but also to prevent the back flow of sap into the tap hole. I understand what you are trying to accomplish here, but as Dave stated you can do the same thing with just a simple CV spout or a silver spout. if you want to prevent air to the tap hole in others ways.... just get yourself some sap bags, and use a cv spout with them. I have noticed the past 3 seasons the sap bags have been out dripping longer than our buckets we have. don't know if it's a coincidence, but has sold me on the bags. also by doing this you don't have to go out and flush the system every time before a run. I enjoy the thought process, but I think you just might be making you life a little more difficult than what it needs to be. best of luck with what ever solution you come up with.

[happy thoughts]

Ok, I think you guys have convinced me to only try this idea in one tap hole, not all 7. We'll see if it has any effect. I might actually use it like this for two weeks then remove the airlock and continue as usual. Just see if two weeks of this idea helps extend the season in that hole. I will be dumping any sap collected that has CA in it and cleaning the airlock before allowing the buckets to fill.

No harm trying:) Why not try it for the entire season? Two weeks may not be enough of a trial especially early in the season when temps are cold since that alone will help retard bacterial growth. Warmer weather might be the true test.

Good luck and keep us updated.

[Sandersyrup]

Just bumping this to get one more answer.

Check flow spouts do or do not work on buckets? That seems like a perfect solution for me if in fact they function on buckets.

Also, where so you find the silver ones? I cant find them online.

[maple flats]

I think technically, buckets are a form of gravity collection. They should work.

[happy thoughts]

As I said before, I can't speak from experience but I see no reason why a CV wouldn't work. Sap flow is all about the pressure gradient between the atmosphere and inside the tree. That will exist with or without vaccuum when conditions are right for sap flow.

If you don't get an answer here try searching the forum as I suggested before. The search box is at the top right of the screen. There's a ton of useful info buried in here. I know this has been brought up a least a few times in the past.

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

interesting idea... I think you are over thinking this one though. try a third tree and put check valve seasonal spiles on it going straight down into it. and that little bit of bacteria in the drop line would be no issue at all. it happens in normal tubing systems all the time.