Low level alarm

[Amber Gold]

I want to set up a low level alarm of my flue pan hooked to a buzzer (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_33&products_id=215). My first thought was to hook it to a float switch (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=324), and they're cheap which is great, but then I need to mount it somewhere in the float box.

I had another idea, but not sure what it's called, or where to find it. Basically, there's a wire that sticks in the float box at a certain level. When it's under sap it's happy and quiet, when the sap level falls below the wire and it's dry, it sounds an alarm. Not sure how it works, but guessing it has something to do with the wire knowing when it's wet, or not, and able to transmit an electric current or something. I think this idea would work better and is simpler. Any ideas??

Thanks

[SeanD]

I have the reverse of that in my laundry room. It sits on the floor and if water touches it, it shuts the valve off. It could just as easily set of an alarm. So, the moisture sensor you are looking for exists, you'll just need to reverse the circuit in the alarm part so that when it is dry, the circuit closes and sets off the alarm. What you are trying to do will work, but that's about the extent of my electrical knowledge, so there you go.

Post your progress.

Sean

[SeanD]

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/alarms.html#lowvoltage

This is similar to what I have. This company offers a variety of set ups, but this one is the simplest and cheapest.

Sean

[Amber Gold]

Sean, you're right on track. I'd like to integrate it into the homemade drawoff and stack thermometer box I'm going to put together so everything's in one place.

I did some more searching online and found something I'm wondering if it'll work. See here (http://www.omega.com/pptst/LVC500.html). Do I need all the parts listed on the page? If so, this is adding up pretty quick.

I'm open to other ideas and sources.

Thanks

[jmayerl]

Not sure how well a sensor work in a flue pan. I run my sap about 1/2" over the flues but the sap jumps up6-8" when under heavy boil. Just don't know if there would ever be enough contact with fluid to keep the circuit closed.

[maple flats]

Try it in the float box where the sap is nearly flat, with some ripples.

[shane hickey]

I have one of these but its in the first flue in the back pan also hooked to the regulator to the natural gas so it also shuts the burners off plus buzzes. Runs like a corn dryer it can be boiling by its self though it took me a while to trust it but it works great u call it my automaded system

[lpakiz]

Maybe this might work. Go on EBay and type in"stainless steel float switch". DON'T shorten Stainless steel to "SS"
These will run a Christmas tree light or other small bulb. They will burn out with a 100 watt bulb. Also availableable are small self contained flashing light/beeper in 110 volt, about the size of a D cell battery. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Safe-Alarm-AC-DC-110-Volts-Mini-Siren-Buzzer-Light-Lamp-/300717175132?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460423f15c
Total for both will be $10-12

[PARKER MAPLE]

what about putting the wire style inside of the sight glass??? I have seen this done on another rig. This particular set also controled a pump that as soon as it sensed it was low it pumped sap into the flu pan. They guy said essentially he didn't need a float box anymore, he was that confident in it.. I don't no the name of it or anymore about it then that.
PM

[maple2]

we have our wire stuck in the sight glass. that is the only place with the least amount of turbulance. It also runs the sap inlet valve,hence,not needing a float box

[BreezyHill]

Probe sensor is the name. Float switches on ebay are good but run on low voltage with a transformer and 12 volt. Had one with poor wiring and it kept shorting out on the body. If it were on 110 it and the body was not grounded it would have been a stray voltage issue. Spare battery and a trickle charger will work instead of the transformer.

You might want to check out the micro switches at Radio Shack. It can be set to use the float as its pressure point, but a low limit in the evaporator's sap tank would be safer. Reach the safe shut down point in the tank and time to not refuel the arch.

[wrushton]

I make all types of circuits I do alarm work I use low flow gate to tell me when the sap is running it trips a relay to my alarm panel that is hooked up to a cell back-up I have also one on my holding tanks to tell me how full it is because my camp is 45 mins away in the mountains its hard to tell when its running. in this case we will need a probe or switch ( that can take the heat) a pezio buzzer ( $5.00) and a on/off switch and a 9 to 15 volt dc power supple I will check Monday to see some things us could us and round cost of it

[TunbridgeDave]

Just wondering if it would make more sense to put the sensor in your feed tank. The only time my flue pan gets low is when I'm trying to get one last draw-off and I'm out of sap. You could have it set so you know when to shut down that way. I'm intrigued and may do the same thing :)

[lew]

We have ours installed in the sight glass tube. At the base of the glass there is a valve that we keep nearly closed to help alleviate the bouncing up and down that occurs in the flue pan and keeps a fairly steady level for the probes to work with. We have 3 wires in our set up. A common ground wire and 2 level detection wires. 1 for low level and 1 for high level. Too low, burn the pan. Too high, not efficient. The low level is hooked to a normally closed relay and the wire needs to be submerged for no buzzer. The other side of the relay is hooked to a buzzer. If it comes out of the sap the circuit is open and a buzzer is sounded. The high level alarm is hooked to a normally open relay. It normally has no contact with the sap. When it does make contact with the sap it closes the contact on the relay and sounds the buzzer. The common ground wire is constantly submerged well below the top of the flue level at all times

[Amber Gold]

Generally during the season, it's not a problem, but there are times when if I get distracted (Maple Weekend or a crowd of people over) and I'm not watching the feed tank close enough, the pan's run low. Although, I did have a problem when I first ran my new rig where the evaporator was running faster than the feed line could keep up...needed more head. I can put the sensor in the feed tank, but if for some reason the float stuck, or got plugged, the flue pan could run low.

I was going to install it in the float box, and now that you mention it, the sight glass is another good spot.

Lew, for a relay, do you mean something like this (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=250) set for normally closed?

[PARKER MAPLE]

That where Ive seen this, Paul has a great set up here..

[lpakiz]

TurnbridgeDave Dave,
That's how we do it. When the head tank gets to a certain low point, a light comes on. If we have more sap, we refill the feed tank then. If we are out of sap, that is the signal to stop adding wood. Its set to leave just enough sap to let the evaporater cool down safely.
The float switches mentioned above are not necessarily limited to 110 volt. I used it to turn 2 large Christmas tree lights on and off. They are very limited in load, as they are good for only 1/2 an amp.

[Big_Eddy]

Google Christmas Tree Water Sensor. Lots of instructions to build your own and some commercial versions as well.

Basically 2 metal probes an inch or so apart, a battery, a small circuit, and a buzzer or warning light.

[Amber Gold]

That is awesome. Never knew there was such a thing.

[lew]

Amber,

Yes

[unc23win]

Awesome site Josh thanks for sharing. I was looking at the same thing you were, but I also found a stack thermometer I might get.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Lew.

One issue the auberins rep. mentioned is the relay is for 120V, which would be an electrocution hazard if the buzzer shorted out. Thoughts? If I found a 12VDC relay, it'd require a transformer to step the voltage down...added cost.

[BreezyHill]

Visit radio shack or ebay for cheap transformers...use them in the feed mill. Dusty environment cant use 120 volt. We use all 12 volt switches and all motor contactors are in one fire proof room. Saves on wire costs too. 22 ga multi conductor is way less to run than 10 & 12 ga on the small motors and the single 0 for the bigger motors.

[Amber Gold]

Will this transformer (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103732&filterName=Type&filterValue=Transformers)from radio shack and this relay (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=250)from Auberins work for the low level alarm? The relay would go on the 120VAC side of the transformer. The transformer would step the voltage down to 12V so it's safe.

[BreezyHill]

Depends on the power draw of the alarm/light you are using. As long as the transformer will power the warning device(s) you will be fine. The relay is a high rated unit so it looks good. I like a light and the alarm and a button to push to test that all is working and manual trip the alarm. Really sucks when you are relying on a tool to work and it is not working. In the mill we test all safety switches on start up of equipment.

[lpakiz]

Perhaps your old cell phone or other low voltage transformer would work? They don't deliver much for amperage, but can be had for 3.2, 6, 9 and 12 volt. I use one to operate an old PID controller from a tar-melting machine (12 volt) to monitor stack temp.
As BreezyHill said, as long as it has enough capacity to run the signal device, you are good to go.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks guys for the help.

Here's the buzzer (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=221)I'll be using.

I'm looking to put Auberin's PID controller (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106), a stack temperature readout (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83), a buzzer for the syrup pan temp., buzzer for the low sap level, toggle on/off switches (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062497) for all three, and a main on/off switch (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=272). Can I put this all in one box, or break it out into two boxes? How big of a box do I need and where can I get them?

[unc23win]

You making it all one unit?

I got this one for my stack I just need to get the compression fitting to hold the probe. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=292

[Amber Gold]

I'd like to have it be one unit, but not sure how much space is needed to house all this stuff without making it a mess. So long as the box is reasonably sized, I'll keep it in one box. The evaporator I bought came with a stack temp (the one above), but he just set it on a shelf or something, so I want to mount it in a box.

This is my first wiring project...I'll have questions.

[wrushton]

We use a lot of winland electronics inc. stuff they call them enviro alert , the cosoles come in 1 zone up to 4 zone hardwire and up 4 wireless they monitor temp,humidity,water,power loss they also have ip wireless nice little units,i am checking with my suppliers for some thing for low level with high heat(that the problem).
A flood switch work on a normal open so when liquid make contact it closes the switch to set of the alarm how ever with the high heat they will melt

[BreezyHill]

Single box is a plus. Boxes on ebay are descent. Get the largest box you have room for.

You are going down a road of no return. Once you start using this switches you will want more, and put them on things to make life easier. I would be a larger transformer than you need so you have plenty of reserve power for future hookups.

[Amber Gold]

What about a 12"x12"x4" enclosure? I found one on ebay for ~$30. Is there a preference for plastic over metal?

[BreezyHill]

Plastic is a lot easier to drill holes in and affix a power block into than metal. You also do not have the shorting issue if wires some how got chaffed or a mouse in it. I would suggest putting in a couple of bounce drier sheets to keep the mice out. Change them at the end of every season. Work great in the trucks and snow groomers to keep the mice out of the cabs and out of the snowmobile hoods and motor areas.

[TheMapleMoose]

I have a question about the "wire type" level alarms that have been discussed. I'm assuming this is the same type used in Leaders "fill stop". It's a 12v unit with a solenoid valve and sensor wire that drops into the syrup and when it makes contact with liquid it switches off. I'd like to add a low level alarm using this same idea but don't know what parts to look for. Is it a DC gfci of some sort?

[Sugarmaker]

Wow! You guys know some stuff!
I loose 7 to 10 lbs each season checking sap levels in pans and tanks. I even have the wife trained to check the sap levels as she cruises around the evaporator, and I rest:).
Regards,
Chris

[TheMapleMoose]

Perhaps I was over thinking it. Can I use a relay and transformer? Use the transformer on the coil circuit, with the liquid acting as a switch, and connect my burner circuit to the line voltage side of the relay and wire it normally closed?

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

You can use a device called an arduino uno. They are very very adaptable to situations like this. I am an electrical engineering student. I can email you over some schematics for it if you like. It takes a little skill and time to build. But its worth it in the end. I would even write your code for you if you like. You could also use and op amp. It would be cheaper but not as good of a system and honestly a little less reliable. you can buy all the necessary components for either way at your local radioshack. Call or text me at 7249860631 for any help you need. I would even think of building you one and mailing it to you for a reasonable price.

[unc23win]

You can use a device called an arduino uno. They are very very adaptable to situations like this. I am an electrical engineering student. I can email you over some schematics for it if you like. It takes a little skill and time to build. But its worth it in the end. I would even write your code for you if you like. You could also use and op amp. It would be cheaper but not as good of a system and honestly a little less reliable. you can buy all the necessary components for either way at your local radioshack. Call or text me at 7249860631 for any help you need. I would even think of building you one and mailing it to you for a reasonable price.

You could make a few bucks there is a lot of interest in such products.

[Amber Gold]

From what I've found, Auberin's has the most cost effective enclosures (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_34&products_id=338). They are metal though.

[TheMapleMoose]

Polycase.com is where I've gotten some of my enclosures. I use the WH series. Nema rated and has a hinges cover. The first draw off controller I made I put into a 4" deep box and it really wasn't deep enough. Atleast not for a carpenter doing electrical work.

[Amber Gold]

Perfect. Just what I needed. I bought their largest WH series, and with shipping, it's <$40.

[Amber Gold]

Resurrecting this thread now that maple season's coming up and I forgot to do anything on this last year. My original idea was to do what maplemoose describes in the quote below, but for some reason, this is harder than it should be...don't know why. I asked Auberins about it, and they couldn't help me. This seems like the simplest level sensor approach.


I have a question about the "wire type" level alarms that have been discussed. I'm assuming this is the same type used in Leaders "fill stop". It's a 12v unit with a solenoid valve and sensor wire that drops into the syrup and when it makes contact with liquid it switches off. I'd like to add a low level alarm using this same idea but don't know what parts to look for. Is it a DC gfci of some sort?

So my next idea is to use a s/s float switch connected to a buzzer. Here's the float switch (http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Liquid-Sensor-Stainless-Switch/dp/B006Z9691O/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1421875024&sr=1-1&keywords=liquid+level+switch+stainless)I'm looking at (vertical shaft so I can easily adjust the height) and this buzzer (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_33&products_id=215)from auberins. The idea is to run a wire from the power distribution panel, to the buzzer, to the float switch, and then back to the buzzer. The float switch can be set normally closed, so when it makes contact, it opens the circuit and sounds the alarm. Is there a reason why this wouldn't work? Also, the buzzer is 110VAC but the float switch says it's DC. Is there a reason why the switch can't run on AC power?

[BreezyHill]

I would shy away from using power in the sap: corrosion and sap is a poor conductor from what I have tried. High sugar will conduct ok but below 2% and it is very poor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200mm-Liquid-float-switch-water-level-sensor-stainless-steel-Double-ball-/151314135456?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item233b0679a0

This float would give you a light at one level and a buzzer in case you don't see the light. They come in different sizes also.

[TheMapleMoose]

I ended up making one last year using a liquid level sensor. I'll have to look up what I used for parts and where I got them but it works great. I added an aux relay to switch the oil burner because I didn't want to put the load on the controller. I'm having trouble figuring out how to upload pics from my droid but I'll see what I can do.

The controller is 110vac, but the probe wires are only 9vac, so that's actually what's in the sight glass. I was limited on the specs of the controller based on what was available. Its an SSAC LLC2 from Carlton-bates

[Amber Gold]

Pretty neat. So this has 120V power going in, and then up to two wires going out? You could have one set for a low level alarm and another set for high level. The two wires would be set in the site glass at two different levels.

So this (https://www.carltonbates.com/Liquid-Level-Controller/SSAC/Pump-Down-Liquid-Level-Controller-LLC2-Series/LLC26A1F25C/p/78093598886-1)is what you got?

[unc23win]

That one sounds like the one to get. I hope you guys share all the parts and information I don't know if I will make one this season or not, but I am definitely interested. Thanks for posting.

[TheMapleMoose]

That particular model is 220v, but yes, that is what i used. I only used two probe wires because I was using it for low level. I used the relay on this to drive a RIB relay. I figured if I was going to burn up a relay, the RIB is alot easier to get than ordering a new controller.

I also wired up a bypass, so I can run the burner without going through the controller.
pic are a little dark. sorry.
10409
10410

[Amber Gold]

Moose. That's the only LCA2 controller I found on Carlton's website. I think I have two terminals on power strip I could use to feed it 220V. Below is a link for the product data sheet. If I'm looking at the item correctly, the upper left corner has a low, high, and common terminals. Does the common go to the bottom of the site guage to always stay submerged? Since I'm futzing with the float, I can set both the low and high leads to the alarm, so I then just need to walk over to float box to figure out which it is and adjust the float accordingly. What's the output voltage to the alarm? This determines which alarm to get from Auberins. Too bad they don't carry more color choices. With being able to put alarms for different issues, it'd be nice to put different colors for them.

Another thought, this could be useful as a head tank alarm. There's been a few times where the head tank's run low...generally when I'm talking with a customer and not paying attention.

https://www.carltonbates.com/static/catalog/products/images/PDF/SSAC_LLC2.pdf

I'm glad to see this is going somewhere this year.

[TheMapleMoose]

Moose. That's the only LCA2 controller I found on Carlton's website. I think I have two terminals on power strip I could use to feed it 220V. Below is a link for the product data sheet. If I'm looking at the item correctly, the upper left corner has a low, high, and common terminals. Does the common go to the bottom of the site guage to always stay submerged? Since I'm futzing with the float, I can set both the low and high leads to the alarm, so I then just need to walk over to float box to figure out which it is and adjust the float accordingly. What's the output voltage to the alarm? This determines which alarm to get from Auberins. Too bad they don't carry more color choices. With being able to put alarms for different issues, it'd be nice to put different colors for them.

Another thought, this could be useful as a head tank alarm. There's been a few times where the head tank's run low...generally when I'm talking with a customer and not paying attention.

https://www.carltonbates.com/static/catalog/products/images/PDF/SSAC_LLC2.pdf

I'm glad to see this is going somewhere this year.

I called and had them special order me one that was 110v because I didn't have 220v to power it where it was going. I had to wait 6 weeks for it but it made it easier for my setup. If you have 220v at the controller than that's the route to go.

As far as the operation, you'll have to give me a little time to go back over it, its been a year, and I honestly can't remember. In fact I'm pretty sure now that I'm actually using an llc1. I'll run up to the sugar house today and check.

If I read the operation on the llc2 correctly, you'll energize the relay when the level touches the top probe, and will stay energized until it gets below the low probe. Meaning your alarm will go off until the level drops below the low probe. I'm not sure it will work like you want it to.
You can power the alarm with any single line voltage. It is isolated from the controller so you can power it separately.

I'll double check my controller and edit my post when I get a chance to look at it.

10421

I did use a LLC1, I apologize for the misinformation before. If you want to set up a high or low limit, I think the LLC1 would work better than the LLC2. If you wanted to set up an alarm for both, you would have to use 2 controllers.

The LLC1 has one set of relay contacts that are isolated, and one set uses one leg of the input voltage. So 110v

For a better selection on parts (switches, lights, etc) you might try alpinetech on eBay. They have a little more selection than auber