Selling Sap

[redneck mapler]

Is there any one in Pa that buys sap? I am looking to expand, I thought I would start by installing most of my taps on gravity pipe line. Hoping to have a new pan Raised flue pan for this year. If all goes well I should have 500 taps, but I not sure I will be able to keep up with boiling. Looking for your help. Thought about a RO but someone said need to max out sap before getting into a RO. thanks for any advice.

[Sandersyrup]

I'd buy some depending where you are. I'm looking for a little sap to buy. How far from Lancaster are you? Doubt I could handle more than 100 gallons in a single trip.


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[redneck mapler]

I am 20 minutes north of Bloomsburg. Where about in Lancaster are you. My wife lived in East Petersburg when I met her.

[Sandersyrup]

I'm in Strasburg. Not sure a 2.5 hour drive is worth 100 gal of sap. What I need is my own sugarbush up north to retreat to. I just tap yard trees. Tapped one today an got about a gallon of sap.


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[jpcole]

Try "Pa Maple Producers" on Google search. There may be someone listed in your area. [Hmmmmmmmm. Benton Pa. Seems to me my father was born there, an old stone house near the golf coarse. His uncle had a grist mill not far from there. Last I knew it was still standing and had his name on it in the old paint.]

[redneck mapler]

That's cool, Know exactly where house is. Drive by it every day. Its for sale.

[Sandersyrup]

How much does sap cost by the way?


John

Sandersyrup
Strasburg, PA

6 taps Red, 8 taps Norway.

Amish canner evaporator.

[redneck mapler]

Have no idea, never sold it or bought it. Just looking for ways to grow. Last year I had more sap than I could handle.

[spud]

[QUOTE=Sandersyrup;235738]How much does sap cost by the way?


John

Sandersyrup

For 2% sap you should get .50 cents per gallon. It does not matter what kind of a set-up the buyer may have because that's not your problem. Your sap has value and you should be paid fairly. Those that disagree with this are the ones that are not set up to buy sap. They want you to practically give it to them. Don't fall into that trap.

Spud

[jmayerl]

Spud-
Have you ever heard of a open market??? Just asking as I will pose a scenario for you. A hobby producer gets inundated with 250 extra gallons of sap every other day and runs out of firewood. Said hobby producer doesn't want to cook any more this year but already has his buckets hanging on the trees. He would love to make a few extra bucks and maybe invest that back into some equipment. So there is a large(10,000tap) operation a few miles up the road which also buys from a few other hobby guys. He pays $.13/pt/gallon. 100,000 tap operation is 20 miles away and pays$.14/pt/gallon. Those are the only 2 producers within 40 miles that purchase sap. That is the price the local market dictates, last I checked America is still a free market(until the government steps in and provides subsides)
Obviously this can change from region to region and even day to day. I hope all you sellers can get top dollar, best wishes.

[spud]

Spud-
Have you ever heard of a open market??? Just asking as I will pose a scenario for you. A hobby producer gets inundated with 250 extra gallons of sap every other day and runs out of firewood. Said hobby producer doesn't want to cook any more this year but already has his buckets hanging on the trees. He would love to make a few extra bucks and maybe invest that back into some equipment. So there is a large(10,000tap) operation a few miles up the road which also buys from a few other hobby guys. He pays $.13/pt/gallon. 100,000 tap operation is 20 miles away and pays$.14/pt/gallon. Those are the only 2 producers within 40 miles that purchase sap. That is the price the local market dictates, last I checked America is still a free market(until the government steps in and provides subsides)
Obviously this can change from region to region and even day to day. I hope all you sellers can get top dollar, best wishes.

The price of bulk syrup has been dictated for all of us. The price of sap should and is based on the price of bulk syrup. A person has the right to sell their sap or syrup for whatever they want. Whatever price the buyer and seller decide on is fine but it may not be fair. If you're the only buyer for 50 miles then you can set your own price and the seller can take it or leave it. By only offering .13 pt/gallon you as a buyer know your getting the deal and not the seller. My feeling is you should treat people fairly and not try to rip people off.

Spud

[lpakiz]

Spud,
The going rate here in central Wisconsin is 13 to 15 cents per point per gallon. Supply and demand, can't change that.

[spud]

Spud,
The going rate here in central Wisconsin is 13 to 15 cents per point per gallon. Supply and demand, can't change that.

Supply and demand means you supply them with sap and you also demand to be paid fair. Don't ever say you can't change that (that is a sign of weakness) Many things in this world have been (changed) because strong people stood up for their rights and demanded to be treated fairly.

Spud

[lpakiz]

Here's how it works here in Wisconsin. If I sell sap and DEMAND 25 cents per point, the buyer will tell me to take a hike.
If I am buying sap and the seller DEMANDS 25 cents, I tell HIM to take a hike. This is not weakness, it is supply and demand.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

If I could sell sap for .50 cents per gallon at 2%, I would sell my evaporator, ro, barrels, and everything else needed to process the sap into syrup and go that route. At that price you would make more selling raw sap than processing it into syrup by the time you figured money and time invested into processing it.
Neil

[spud]

If I could sell sap for .50 cents per gallon at 2%, I would sell my evaporator, ro, barrels, and everything else needed to process the sap into syrup and go that route. At that price you would make more selling raw sap than processing it into syrup by the time you figured money and time invested into processing it.
Neil

This is why I sell my sap. I get .50 cents for 2% sap and my buyer is still making $8.00 per gallon. We are both happy and we are both making a (fair) amount of money. This is why I have no plans to buy an evaporator or barrels. I do plan to buy an RO just to save on trucking. When that happens I have already been told I will be paid more money for my sap. This is being fair to me and thats why I enjoy do business with my buyer. A level of fairness and respect needs to be shown from both parties (and it is). Franklin County is by far the largest maple producer. What the big boy's have discovered is buying sap even at 70% of bulk price still makes them a good amount of money. A lot of Larger operations (not all) tend to have lower GPT production because they rely to much on others to do the job (in the woods) for them. These others don't care as much as the owner and as a result production takes a hit. Because of this buying sap has become a way of getting sap without dealing with all the nonsense. The big boys have plenty of holding tanks and ROs to handle whatever sap you and they have. Because of ROs most sugar makers don't spend countless hours boiling. The big boys can boil around the clock and depending on evaporator size can make over $1000.00 per hour profit on bought sap paying 70%. Mike Farrell has write-ups on this and we have talked about this by way of e-mail. Mike laughs at people saying they can't afford paying more then 50% but then after breaking it all down the person realizes even with their smaller rig they can make $250.00 per hour buying at 70%. How many of you make that at your day job? Franklin County is paying a higher rate for sap then other places and that is for sure. I believe in time other large operations in other parts of Vermont and other states will start paying more per gallon for sap. If your going to spend all that money buying evaporator, RO, Filter Press and barrels then why not let it make you more money? Using this equipment for only 3-8 hours a day seems silly when it could be run 24 hours a day making you more money and paying off the equipment sooner. Paying one or two people to boil all night for you could make you thousands while you sleep. This also encourages more people to set up their property for sap selling. Just my thoughts.

Spud

[Randy Brutkoski]

If I was paying 50 cents a gallon for 2% , I wouldn't be in business that long. There is so many expenses to boiling sap. 50/50 right down the middle at bulk price is the fair way for both. I am happy for you getting that much $ for sap. But here in the real world it doesn't happen like that.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

If I was paying 50 cents a gallon for 2% , I wouldn't be in business that long. There is so many expenses to boiling sap. 50/50 right down the middle at bulk price is the fair way for both. I am happy for you getting that much $ for sap. But here in the real world it doesn't happen like that.I've never bought or sold sap, but I would say that would be fair for both parties.
Neil

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

$8.00 per gallon is the gross figure before you take out boiling expenses(fuel consumption, electricity, manpower if you are paying someone, wear and tear on equipment, trucking to get the finished product to buyer....)the list goes on and on. By the time you are done it wouldn't be worth it- at least not for me. That being said, if you are getting that much for your sap, that is great. If I was in that situation, that is what I would do as well.
Neil

[spud]

If I was paying 50 cents a gallon for 2% , I wouldn't be in business that long. There is so many expenses to boiling sap. 50/50 right down the middle at bulk price is the fair way for both. I am happy for you getting that much $ for sap. But here in the real world it doesn't happen like that.

Randy,

You live in the same world I live in. Now stop and think about what you just said. The price of bulk syrup and maple equipment is very close to the same for both of us (although there is a discount on equipment if you live in Franklin County). There is no reason you can't set up your operation to be more profitable just like the big boy's do here in my area. They are no better or smarter then you they just see something you're not. In business there is always room for improvement. The problem with some people is they think their top notch so they never look into improving. In their eye's they are already at the top. There is always room for improvement even with the big boy's. Last year I got 25 GPT and I was happy with that (BUT). I see others getting 30-40 GPT and that tells me there is room for improvement in my woods and with my set-up. I want more production so I turn to those who are doing much better then me. There are great people on this site that have helped me a bunch. There is also PMRC and Dr.Tim that can help all of us to be better sugar maker's. I listen to these people because they understand how to get more GPT. All this information is free to anyone willing to listen. I have heard maple dealers say PMRC does not know what their talking about. I know one dealer that gets a .4 GPT average and that's pretty good. PMRC and other's get .6+ GPT so who's the Jack***? The key to being successful is learning from those who know more then you. Having a humble heart will lead a person to success. Whatever you're doing now (Randy) you can improve (only if you want). If 50/50 is the best you can do and show a profit then that should tell you something. Happy Birthday Randy.

Spud

[sjdoyon]

The numbers work out when your a large producer, not so much when you have a few thousand taps. We've spoken to a number of large producers in Franklin county and it's a completely different economic equation in the county compared to the county we live in. If we could get Spud's price for our sap, I'd gladly convert to just selling sap but the demand is not there.


$8.00 per gallon is the gross figure before you take out boiling expenses(fuel consumption, electricity, manpower if you are paying someone, wear and tear on equipment, trucking to get the finished product to buyer....)the list goes on and on. By the time you are done it wouldn't be worth it- at least not for me. That being said, if you are getting that much for your sap, that is great. If I was in that situation, that is what I would do as well.
Neil

[happy thoughts]

I don't know if this sugarmaker is buying sap but it seems close enough to you to possibly take a drive and ask. Sorry I don't know the name or exact address but they are on Rt 42 and Meyers rd between 239 and 220. They have to be making a lot of syrup because the wood piles I've seen there are phenomenal. There is a sign posted on 42 near the operation. They may be able to direct you to someone else who might be buying in the area if they themselves are not buying. You could also ask the nearest maple association such as Endless mountains, Northeastern, and tioga-potter . Contact info is here:
http://pamapleassociation.com/members-endless.html

Also call or emaill your local ag extension office. Dr Robt Hansen oversees the maple operations and is located in Towanda.

[PerryFamily]

Spud- super glad you get a good price for your sap. In Windham county prices like that are not the norm either.
Things are worth what someone is willing to pay. I buy sap based on Bascoms prices and add $.05/ gal for delivery.

[DrTimPerkins]

Things are worth what someone is willing to pay.

And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.

[unc23win]

Wow has this thread changed. What Spud is saying makes very good sense even if maybe the price is more than one is willing to pay. In my own situation I was doing split last season where the producer was getting 60%. Interesting because some the same things come to mind when you talk about the producer being glad to get sap from someone who spends a lot of time in the woods making sure things are done right where at their own place maybe the crew is not quite up to par. Then there is the producer who says how they can't possibly do better than the deal they are because of the cost to make syrup which is interesting. When a producer is set up with an RO and evaporator set up with Steam Away (both paid for years ago) then they have natural gas (which here in PA is the cheapest way to make syrup) same producer $1 of gas per gallon of syrup. So at Spuds price they are still making $7 a gallon so if they make 30 gallons an hour their bought sap is still making them $210 and hour and most make WAY more than 30 gallons an hour. Then factor in that the person selling sap is doing things right changing spouts, changing drops, and replacing line on a schedule they will be making lighter syrup and the producer will make even more $. What happens is that the larger producer buying sap gets to DEPEND on the person selling sap because their good practices make the producer more $ and in some cases it easier to make more from the little guy than it is to revamp their own operation (big money) so they just kind of take theirs as it is. Of course not everyone can haul as much sap as Spud and for me that's the downside of selling sap and why I am on my own this season.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Randy,

You live in the same world I live in. Now stop and think about what you just said. The price of bulk syrup and maple equipment is very close to the same for both of us (although there is a discount on equipment if you live in Franklin County). There is no reason you can't set up your operation to be more profitable just like the big boy's do here in my area. They are no better or smarter then you they just see something you're not. In business there is always room for improvement. The problem with some people is they think their top notch so they never look into improving. In their eye's they are already at the top. There is always room for improvement even with the big boy's. Last year I got 25 GPT and I was happy with that (BUT). I see others getting 30-40 GPT and that tells me there is room for improvement in my woods and with my set-up. I want more production so I turn to those who are doing much better then me. There are great people on this site that have helped me a bunch. There is also PMRC and Dr.Tim that can help all of us to be better sugar maker's. I listen to these people because they understand how to get more GPT. All this information is free to anyone willing to listen. I have heard maple dealers say PMRC does not know what their talking about. I know one dealer that gets a .4 GPT average and that's pretty good. PMRC and other's get .6+ GPT so who's the Jack***? The key to being successful is learning from those who know more then you. Having a humble heart will lead a person to success. Whatever you're doing now (Randy) you can improve (only if you want). If 50/50 is the best you can do and show a profit then that should tell you something. Happy Birthday Randy.

Spud


Now Spud, you must also know that not all woods are created equal as well..... I for one know this to be true. I have my woods set up and can reach .5GPT. But last year I set up a new woods for a friend and they got close to .75GPT. Now the strange thing there is that they were not as aggressive at fixing leaks, certainly not as commited to keeping the vacuum at maximum levels as I am. etc etc etc... but they way out produced me. So I do not believe in the I did better than you theme. Now that being said certainly everyone has room for improvement (except me of course).

Now on to the real topic of buying sap.

I have thought long and hard on this particular subject on many occasions. And for sure Spud you receive an excellent rate for your sap. Now where the value comes into play for the buyer. He already has a hired guy that is driving around picking up sap. He already has a dedicated vehicle to do it. He already has the tanks needed to handle it. He already has an RO big enough to take care of it. He already has everything needed. He most likely is already in the 15,000 taps or larger category. most likely in the 20-30k. So your sap is just a splash in the pond. Probably adds an hour to an hour an half to his day. So my guess is he makes 120 or so gal of syrup off your woods on a given day so for his 35% he is making roughly 1300 gross. not a bad hour and half, plus a $100 to the truck and driver. But now on the other shoe you are talking to all these guys that are in the 1000-1500 taps and telling them what you are getting and it is just not available in most areas. Its just not possible. Personally I could handle another 10k taps with my equipment and would love to buy delivered sap, but I am not sure that messing around with sap I would have to go get would be worth it to me. Now take Randy, he already has to haul in most or all of his sap, is doing with equipment that gets upgraded every year and is not quite sized for his operation (but will be). He could not have 5-6000 gallons of sap dropped off everyday and keep up, therefore it is not worth it to him at this time. Down the road that theory may change. 65% is just not a workable number in most areas. You are quite fortunate that it works for you.

[spud]

And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.

Dr.Tim,

One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup. You and others appear to be suggesting that sap value depends on the persons set-up. Some set-ups are much better then others. A guy with a 3x12 and no RO should not be buying sap because if he did he could only pay 5 cents a gallon to make it worth his while. So does that make the sap worth 5 cents? The same guy with his 3x12 and no RO gets the same price for his bulk syrup does he not? Should we pay him $80.00 a gallon because he spends so much more time and money to make the same product? Some sap sellers in some areas are trapped because their might only be one person buying sap. When this happens that one buyer can set his price and say take it or leave it. The sad part (and my point is) in most cases this one sap buyer will put the screws to the sellers (and you know it). The seller has to let his sap go for less then it's really worth or set up a sugar house for himself. Everyone talks about the price to set up a sugar house but not many want to talk about buying 100 acres and setting that up. Have any of you checked land prices lately? The price of sugar woods is on the rise because hard maple logs are worth a bunch to loggers and because people see the value in maple syrup.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

Dr.Tim,

One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup. You and others appear to be suggesting that sap value depends on the persons set-up. Some set-ups are much better then others. A guy with a 3x12 and no RO should not be buying sap because if he did he could only pay 5 cents a gallon to make it worth his while. So does that make the sap worth 5 cents? The same guy with his 3x12 and no RO gets the same price for his bulk syrup does he not? Should we pay him $80.00 a gallon because he spends so much more time and money to make the same product? Some sap sellers in some areas are trapped because their might only be one person buying sap. When this happens that one buyer can set his price and say take it or leave it. The sad part (and my point is) in most cases this one sap buyer will put the screws to the sellers (and you know it). The seller has to let his sap go for less then it's really worth or set up a sugar house for himself. Everyone talks about the price to set up a sugar house but not many want to talk about buying 100 acres and setting that up. Have any of you checked land prices lately? The price of sugar woods is on the rise because hard maple logs are worth a bunch to loggers and because people see the value in maple syrup.

Spud

So with that being said then this theory would also be true. My house in Barre Vt is should be worth the same money as a house on Lake Champlain in Burlington. One size does not fit all. If no one is in your area buying sap or my guess is in your area there are a lot of people willing to buy sap. And as we also know in that area its not always about making the big profit, its more about making the most syrup. Its more of a supply and demand that will drive the price. The higher the demand the higher the price.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.

Agree 100% . You can think you have a product that is worth a million dollars .If nobody will pay that then guess what it isn't worth that. Just because somebody buys a product cheaper dose not mean they are ripping off the seller. The seller is agreeing to sell it then it is his personal choice and he isn't being ripped off. Nobody is putting a gun to his head and forcing him. If he dose not want to sell it for the price the buyer offers then he can move on to the next person. That's just business !

[DrTimPerkins]

One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup.

Spud....you make a lot of excellent points, and I've very happy that you are satisfied with the price you receive for your sap. However there are a lot of factors involved in determining the value BESIDES just the value of the syrup. Distance is one. A maple producer who has the capacity for processing and will accept the sap. Many many others. All of those factors drive the demand, and thus the price, up and down.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Thad, your right, for some of these guys it isn't all about the $. Its bragging rights. For example, I have heard from a lot of people that when a sugarmaker leases land up north say franklin county compared to say leasing land in rutland county is totally different in $ per tap per year. I have heard numerous of times where up north they pay up to 3 to 4 dollars a tap. Down here it ranges from .50cents to at most $1.25 which I know nobody that pays $1.25 down here. The most I have ever payed is .75. I know a fair amount of guys that pay .50. You can maybe kind of compare. It is a lot different down here than up where you are. Again I am happy for the $ you are making. If I payed >50 cents a gallon for sap I would have to upgrade everything because all of the guys around me would sell there rigs and just sell me there sap. You got me thinking spud. I could corner the market down here in all of the stores with my syrup.

[spud]

Yes you could Randy so open those eyes wider and you will be amazed as to what you will see. A guy in your area paying 65%+ would get ALL the sap sales in that area. You may not even have to tap your own trees.:). I know theres a lot of people that disagree with my opinion on sap prices and that is fine. I also know there is a bunch that do agree. 1100 hits on this thread and only a handful of comments. The one thing for sure is I have the upmost respect for You, Dr.Tim, Thad, Perry Family,Jared, and all the others that make their comment on this issue. We don't have to always agree on everything and that is what makes it so fun.

As for Thad and his house value he is right. I plan to call the town of Barre in the morning and advise them to reappraise his home to be more like homes on the lake. Enjoy your new taxes Thad.:lol:

Spud

[Randy Brutkoski]

Lets get back to that helium injection on our vacuum thing.

[PATheron]

This is the end? Nobodys going to go haywire? Seriously, Ive been following this all day on tapping breaks and this is the end of it?

[PerryFamily]

Very well said spud. I wish you and everyone luck this season.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I hope we all have a great season and all make at least 1/2 gal or more per tap !!!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Lets get back to that helium injection on our vacuum thing.
its on the existing thread

[jimmygarison]

If I sell sap and DEMAND 25 cents per point,or if I am buying sap and the seller DEMANDS 25 cents, I tell HIM to take a hike. This is not a problem it is supply and demand.