How many taps to make a 300 ft gravity run worth while?

[Noah's Ark]

I am looking to add a gravity line to my operation, I have great slope so gravity is not an issue. My first question is how many taps does it take to make a run worth while? I can pickup 30 taps on a 300 ft line, I was thinking of using a 300 ft 3/4 main with short laterals picking up 5-7 taps each. The second question is how long can/should 5/16 laterals be? I have done some research but have not really come up with a good answer on length, just number of taps based on gravity or vac.

I know this is a longer line for a few taps but I thought it was a good way to learn on a line I could run directly into my holding tank by the shack. The 30 taps on tubing would give me 65-75 taps total (rest on buckets) boiling on a 2x4, about all I can handle this year. I have the potential to grow to about 300-400 taps in the future on our farm, but I would have to set up remote tanks and don't have the time or equipment to grow that much right now.

[adk1]

100 feet should be max

[bees1st]

I would say price it out . Figure out everything you need to get it done . Look up the cost of everything . Go from there.

[sugarsand]

Are you thinking of using 3/16 tubing, if so you could possibly use all 3/16 line to your sugar house if you have enough drop.

Sugarsand

[maple flats]

If you have plenty of drop, you might do very well with just 1 line 5/16". This depends on the layout. If you can collect from all trees/taps with a simple layout, and then from the lowest tap have a good drop to the sugarhouse tank, you will get good natural vacuum. The most important part is the drop after the last tap. When the line fills with sap then gravity goes to work. If this is possible, just use 1 line, all 5/16 lateral. Roughly every foot of drop after that lowest tap gives you about 1" of vacuum, 20' drop =about 20", 40' drop does not =40", but it might get 25-26" if you have no leaks. If these are not possible because of the layout, you might want to look into the 3/16".
Yeast Pimp (a friend of mine) has a single 5/16 line that climbs a hedge row a few hundred feet and he gets very good flow, he reports that the line flows full stream with very good pressure into a 275 gal tote, I think he said he has something like 53 taps on that line. The key is the good drop at the lowest end of the line.

[Noah's Ark]

Thank you all for the feedback, I am going to look into the single line idea. I have at least a 40-50 foot drop over the whole line but only 5-10 after the last tap. I plan to do some work Wed to see what will work out best. I know it may not be really "cost" effective, however was hoping to learn some from this trial for a couple years before I grow again. I did not want to waste my time if people thought it was too long a run to work well with the number of taps.

[Sugarmaker]

Noah,
I would probably try it with just the 5/16. Mainly because I am cheap and sap in any tube pointed down hill will flow down hill. I only have 5/16 gravity systems, maybe not 300 feet but probably 150 with 40 taps on it. And it runs like crazy! Maybe you could run two lines?
Snowing sideways here right now! Nice to be in where its toasty warm!
Good luck.
Regards,
Chris

[sugarsand]

According to what I've been reading gravity tubing using 3/16 will pull more sap than using 5/16 tubing. Also its cheaper and worth looking into.

Sugarsand

[pine ridge sugarworks]

Hey first generation, after looking at your set up do you mean 3500' of main line? If you have 3500' of laterals on 1000' feet of main line you either have to many taps per lateral or a lot of space between trees. No matter what, it would be beneficial to increase the main line length and shorten the laterals.

[pine ridge sugarworks]

200 feet is normally the max with no more than 10-12 taps per lateral for gravity and 5-7 for vacuum.

[pine ridge sugarworks]

I would run 1/2" main with short laterals for that short a distance. Remember if your laterals are running full of sap you are loosing production. More natural vacuum is generated when your 5/16" lines empty faster.

[Zipdude66]

Seems like a major conflict of opinions on how a gravity setup should be done. Is this old school versus new or something else completely?

[Noah's Ark]

I have to agree on the confused, I thought I had a good idea and now I am cratching my head. If I decide 3/16 does anyone have a good source, i have not seen any supplies on the main retailers sites?

[Starting Small]

My understanding on the 3/16 is that it works best with a significant slope to develop the vacuum. On flat ground on either 3/16 or 5/16 you will achieve some vacuum as well just not as much as with a large elevation change.
-Dave

[steve J]

Read the thread here on 3/16 line I just installed some this fall and I am going to a seminar on this subject this weekend in Middlebury. http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?17418-High-vacuum-in-gravity-tubing-research&highlight=3%2F16+line+study

[Ryan August]

I was hoping this thread would get more chatter since the confused statements were made on the idea of running on 5-8 lines on 5/16 as the conversation over the last few months has been 20 plus taps on the 5/16 to try and provide suction. I am only an average user and reader of the site, but I think, and that is think, the fella Dr Tim commented in the past on the effects of natural suction with higher number of taps with good slope, looks like he does somesort of schollarly research. I was at the local maple supply dealer this weekend, very informative and helpfull by the way. She still goes on the idea of a lower number of taps per lateral. What to do what to do. I may do both this year and compare. Hopefull this will bring the thread back up and we can get some repeat comments from the past on benefits of higher number of taps on a 5/16.

It was nearly 50 here in central maine on monday, I was thinking, hmm, should I put a tap in. Naaa, better to be patient.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I have all 1/2" gravity systems with as short laterals and fewest taps per lateral as possible. I only tap sugar maples 12" or greater. I meter my sap collections by orchard and can compare gallons per tap production orchard to orchard and year to year. My conclusion is the production challenge for gravity systems is capturing peak flows. Those are the 24 hour periods where the bucket production is 3 gallons and the gravity systems only produce 5 quarts per tap. My contention is peak flows overwhelm the 5/16 tubing with more than 3 or 4 good taps. High production requires removing the gas from the tubing as soon as possible by getting the sap into a mainline, basically mimicking a wet/dry vacuum system.

My bucket tree averages are always great than my gravity systems. My shorter, low tap lateral systems always out produce my longer, high tap lateral systems. There is a guy down the road who consistently produce 30 gallons a year from 50 roadside buckets...and pulls his taps when he hits 30 gallons! Despite all our technology, maple production peaked long ago.

While the natural vacuum studies show good results, the requirements are very difficult to duplicate in actual practice. The variables are numerous: site, trees, weather, even where the tap is placed in the tree. My advice is whatever system you decide to construct, use a couple bucket taps as a control.

With the nice cold weather, we should all have a good season!

[Noah's Ark]

Thank you everyone for the info. I am still not sure what i am going to do, but I have to get my act in gear. I will let you all know what I end up with, and will try and keep track of output as compared to my buckets. Since I am just starting out with tubing and the budget is tight since I am getting a new evaporator I don't think I will be getting a tubbing tool, from what I have read this takes 3/16 out of the picture. I am torn between 1/2 main line with latereals or strait 5/16. I have very good slope, but the most taps I would have on a latteral are 5 which is at the very top. The trees run up the hill in kind of a line. Main reason I am doing this section is I am looking to expand the number of taps while experimenting/learning with tubing for the future and I can make this run dump right where I boil.

Oh what to do.

[lpakiz]

Noah's Ark,
If you have 30 taps, gravity only, I would use one run of 5/16 from top to bottom. I heard of a good test to see if you are over loaded. On the best days flow, pull the bottom tap. If there is suction, you are fine. If sap comes out, you have back pressure, and are over-loaded. In this case, split the 30 taps into 2 separate runs, both terminating at the tank. The upper 15 will almost certainly have vacuum. I think 30 taps on gravity is overloading 300 feet of 3/16 tubing, but 30 might be just right for 5/16. Please send 2 cents, thanks.

[SevenCreeksSap]

Noahs,
Check this link and also do a search on this site for gravity research. lots of old threads here with this topic. The general guidelines with 5/16 tubing is you can run as much as 50 or even more taps on one line, as long as you have good slope and a good drop especially at the end going into your tank. I have several lines with 30-35 taps running into my mainline, and also gave very good slope. Basically more taps,= more natural vacuum, = more sap especially on a good run day. I don't have any 3/16 but I'm sure there are studies on it too. just logically it seems like you'd put some fewer taps on the smaller line, but Maybe not. might pull more natural vacuum.

http://ecommons.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/4046/1/FLS-014.pdf

[farmall h]

NOAH'S ARK, Maple Flats hit the nail on the head. Just go with 5/16 tubing for the 30 extra taps.

[steve J]

I just sat in on a class at the Addison county Maple school on 3/16 from the panel of 4 which included Tim I believe Wilmet that has been doing the research it does appear this is potential going to be a pretty big deal. Tim said he ran 37 taps on one 3/16 line and I believe the number he gave was 30 gallons of sap per tap. That's impressive.

[steve J]

One of the gentlemen on the panel had a sugar bush with slight grade and although not ideal for 3/16 he was more than happy with his production vs 5/16ths one of the things noted is it takes a lot of sap to fill the water column of 5/16 so only on the heaviest of run days does it actually create a vaccume and as soon as trees start to slow the air reappears in the line and the vaccume is lost. They also noted that 3/16 ran on days when 5/16 was bone dry. As the season progresses I will post how mine actually performs.

[Ryan August]

what you all think. I have a section of about 25 taps I was going to run with 5/16 tubing then have +/-150 feet down the hill (from last tap to area of collection) and about 10-15 feet drop. I will also feed 2 sections of 7 taps and 10 taps into this line. I was thinking of running 1/2 pipe down this 150+/- foot section and dump these two 7 and 10 taps laterals into it. The entire line dumps into collections bucket/tank. First question, what you think about going to the 1/2 inch "main line" and second question, what about just running 1/2 irrigation pipe for this. I know it is not "food grade" and I read last year the post on home depot food grade and non food grade buckets so I understand that argument. Sooooo, what we think.

[BlueberryHill]

THis whole 3/16 thing is intriguing. My brother had a hill behind his house with about a 30' incline from his driveway to the tree line in his back yard. From there it goes up another 20 ft and there are about 30 maples up there. Seems like the ideal spot to do the 3/16 line "gravity vacuum" setup. I have never done any tubing work before besides drop lines coning off the tree that were feeding pails on the ground next to the tree. I don't count that as tubing work though. I really have no idea what is involved in setting up the tubing. I am hesitant to buy a $200 tubing tool that is not even for the correct size tubing that I will be using. Other than the McMaster Carr fittings referenced in Tim's research paper, I don't see any fitting made by and maple producers? Having a hard time wrapping my head around exactly how to set this up and what I will need to make it happen. Also, any idea on how long we should expect it to take to set this all up? Not sure if I should tackle it this year or wait until next year. I already have about 60 taps at home and I'm on a flat pan Mason 2x3 so not exactly making clouds over here. Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Ryan August]

Blueberry hill
I am new to this as well but a couple of thougths. I am going into my 4th season of trial and error, mostly error but still get syrup. The tool is expensive. I have run short sections in the past and put fitting in without the tubing tool. I have done a combination of hot thermos water and dipped the tube in it and I have done a tourch that I carried around and barely hit the tubing and it softens enough to slide the tube on. I have done irrigation work in the past and in cool season would use a match to soften the pipe to get the fittings in. I may say not kosher but it works. Also, if you feel like you need to tool, I have seen the single version go for 90$ new.

Also, a 2x3. Adding 30 more taps to your 60. Seams like a lot for that unit. However, 30 taps to one collections spot is a lot easier to collect than 30 taps to 30 collections units.
Just a novice's thoughts

[steve J]

Blueberryhill I did buy a 2 handed tool ment for 5/16 to install my 3/16 fittings. What you do is cut a short piece of 5/16s and than cut it in half length wise and put one half in each jaw. Once you done that it grips the 3/16 line just fine. Your right at this point no maple supplier is making the fittings but I suspect that will change in the future. I bought mine from McMaster Carr. And Ryan makes a good point about collecting from one location vs 30. I for a fact will have way to much sap coming in this year for the size of my rig if this runs as projected. If that is the case I will not be chasing around emptying my buckets as my lines feed into big holding tank and sap is pumped into sugar house and far less time is wasted in collection when I could be boiling. As to how long it would take I did mine in warm weather but I can say the 3/16 tubing was easy to work with but I have never run tubing of any sort in the cold so I am not sure how much more difficult it might be. I did premake all my drops before heading to the woods. So that would be a length of 5/16 with a reducer fitting to 3/16 line and after a couple inches a 3/16th T. You also can have your spout preinstalled. You need a piece of 5/16th line to go around the top end tree with an end tree connector you would have 2 5/16th T fitting in this piece one for a drop and one for a vacuum gauge. You connect your 3/16 line using a reducer fitting and run it tree to tree cutting and splicing in your drops at each tree keeping it tight this line really grips well. You are going to need a large tank at bottom and your done.

[BlueberryHill]

Thanks Steve and Ryan for the great replies. I think we'll have a max of 30 taps on this line. Maybe 25. Gonna try to keep it all on 1 line. I heard it is best to zigzag up and not to T off of the line that you run up. I could probably get an extra 5 trees if I T off at one spot. Thought about just running 2 lines up instead of doing the T. Then I would have about 20-25 taps on 1 line and 5 taps on another. Might just skip the 5 altogether if they won't create enough sap to get vacuum.

I might try to make my own tool and see how it works. Since this is not going to be too many taps anyway, I think we'll be able to spend a little extra time fidgeting around with a hack tool and save the money over the pro tool. I just saw a couple threads where people made their own and a couple plans look good. Well, thanks again, I am off to try to order up some supplies. Getting kinda nervous now. Seemed like I had plenty of time and now all of a sudden it's almost go-time!

[steve J]

From what they said at the seminar never put a Y in because it works more like a dam as the line that is trying to merge in has no room for the flow . They also said that they have run this with very few taps on a line such as 3 or 4 and still got very high vacuum so I would run the two lines based on what I heard.

[BlueberryHill]

Thanks Steve that makes a lot of sense. I have the confidence (even if not rightfully so) now to give this a shot. Going to try to make a tubing tool or two in the next couple of days and if I can get it to work in my house assembling drop lines then I'll have a decent idea that it will work in the woods. If I can't get a custom tool tweaked then I guess I'll have to invest in a real one. But then I am committed to doing this every year from now on. Who am I kidding, I am already committed ;)

[Noah's Ark]

I want to thank everyone for the comments and ideas. I was not expecting this to create so much traffic. I have decided to do 5/16 this year myself. Mainly due to not having a tool and also the availability of the 3/16 fittings. I plan to give 3/16 a try next year as I expand. But since this is my first go with tubing I figure I give the 5/16 a try first. Placed an order on Sat for my fittings and tubing. Now just hoping it gets here soon so I can start putting the line up over the weekend. Can't wait to give it a try and see how everything goes.

BlueberryHill I would love to see your homemade tool when you are done. I have too many to do projects right now (rebuild my Stihl 066 that toasted the head and cylinder, build some book shelves for the wife, get my garden tractor fixed for spring, etc.) to do not this season but may give it a go before next year.

[BlueberryHill]

Thought I would post an update on my progress so far. Maybe this info will help someone else that wants to try this 3/16 thing.

I emailed Maple Guys and they had 1 roll of 3/16 line in stock and is happy to get. I am super impatient and I need 2 rolls to get this party started, so I shopped a bit more. Still early early in the 3/16 game so can't blame them for not having piles of it.

I called D&G in VT (802)524-9625 and they have the 3/16 line in stock. I ordered 2 rolls. They don't have 3/16 taps so you still have to use the 5/16 tap, a short length on 5/16 on your drop, and then a straight connector that necks down from 5/16 to 3/16. D&G has those straight fittings as well as straight 3/16 to 3/16 connectors and also 3/16 tees. Nice to be able to get it all in 1 place instead of getting the fittings from Mcmaster. I also picked up some 5/16 spouts with check valves while I was at it to see how they perform.

I plan to stop at the hardware store tonight and find some components that I can butcher up to try to make a line tool or two. I have never set up any lines so I am excited to see how it goes.

[fuzztugs]

I have been collecting with buckets for 5 years now . Going to a gravity flow next year . I have about 30 feet of drop from my top tap to collection point . This fall there is a class offered on running a pipe line and with that ad the info I have got here I hope to make my collecting easer . Here in West Central Pa our sapping season was cut short do to warm weather and the trees pushing bud . In all my buddy and I had fun and ended up with 9 gallon of syrup on 61 taps n buckets . Next year we are going to have 200 or more taps . A friend and local bee keeper has offered us his trees to tap . Thank you all for the great info .