RO electrical help

[madmapler]

I'm in the process of running wires in the new sugarhouse and I checked the used RO I bought a while back and I'm puzzled. Its an older small bros.(sap bros.) with a 3hp tonkaflo pressure pump and a .5 hp. feed pump. It has 3-4" posts. The manual I have says its 230v and the pressure pump is labeled 230v as well but it only has 3 wires running to it (black,white and green). I'm no electrician but the green is clearly a ground so it appears to be 115v. I guess I'm looking for a little reassurance as everything is written in french. Each motor is fed from its own gray electrical box with a emergency stop button on it. In the box where I'm supposed to tie in the power, there is four black exposed wires and a smaller white wire. What in the world am I supposed to do with them? I know that a few of you guys have these machines and I'd appreciate any info you could share about them. I'm not really even clear on what this thing is capable of doing. Also, how many amps should this thing draw? Thanks for any guidance. I'm completely at a loss here.

[lpakiz]

Madmapler,
RELAX, 220 is just 2 110 volt leads. Each 110 volt wire at your pump will be 110 to ground or neutral. But when they both feed the motor, they act like they are in series, giving 220 across each other. Perhaps an electrician can give us a more technical explanation. The green is indeed a safety ground.

[morningstarfarm]

The black and white are live 110 v each..and the green is your ground

[madmapler]

I understand that 220 is both legs of 110 and I know that 220 is at times 3 wire but I did'nt know that the third is ground. The 3 wire that I've seen is black and red- hot, and white- neutral. These three wires are black, white and green which looks like 110 to me. Are you guys still sure its 220? I know it should be. I'm just worried that someone messed around with it. Thanks.

[sapman]

Still sounds like standard 220 to me. I've never understood the thinking behind neutral for 220. Ground, yes, but why two grounds, essentially? Green should always be ground, the other two are surely your hot legs.

[lpakiz]

It's definitely not safe or to code, but you can run your 220 pump with ONLY 2 wires.
Color is not important, but don't use green. Green is only safety ground, and should not be used for (or confused with) neutral.
In 110, white is customarily used for neutral (not always), but in 220, it is normal for the white to be one of the " hot" 110 legs. There is no neutral with a 220 motor.
Another way to remember these terms: Green should NOT carry current, unless there is some fault. Neutral WILL carry current.

The extra wires you spoke of--are these just leads coming out of the motor? If so, they could be used to change voltage or reverse the rotation. There may be a wiring diagram inside the box cover or in the motor cover, or on the nameplate of the motor.

[morningstarfarm]

Make sure in your panel the green ground wire goes to a ground bar...whatever you do do not wire it into your neutral bar...

[unc23win]

You will probably should use a 50 amp breaker Green goes to ground White goes to one side Black goes to other side. I would wire the RO with a cord and receptical if you leave some extra you can move it if you want and if you get a different machine you won't have to wire it again.

Here is a video not great but the guy wires a 50 amp reciptical and to the breaker box. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDtKpae-p8

You don't need 3 wire.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

It's definitely not safe or to code, but you can run your 220 pump with ONLY 2 wires.
Color is not important, but don't use green. Green is only safety ground, and should not be used for (or confused with) neutral.
In 110, white is customarily used for neutral (not always), but in 220, it is normal for the white to be one of the " hot" 110 legs. There is no neutral with a 220 motor.
Another way to remember these terms: Green should NOT carry current, unless there is some fault. Neutral WILL carry current.

The extra wires you spoke of--are these just leads coming out of the motor? If so, they could be used to change voltage or reverse the rotation. There may be a wiring diagram inside the box cover or in the motor cover, or on the nameplate of the motor.
Let me dig my code book out but you can phase color a white to black or red if the wire cant be replaced like in romex or mc. if its in conduit or green field or liquid tight then the correct colored wire must be used. May be Im wrong but will find it.
Electricity knows no color, but as others have said green is ground. Put a couple wraps of black tape on each end so it doesn't get confusing.
200.7C
400.7

[madmapler]

You will probably should use a 50 amp breaker Green goes to ground White goes to one side Black goes to other side. I would wire the RO with a cord and receptical if you leave some extra you can move it if you want and if you get a different machine you won't have to wire it again.

. So 50 amps should be sufficient to run a larger RO say a 1000gph unit? What size wire should I run? Thanks all for your input. I'm confident you're right.(famous last words?)

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

So 50 amps should be sufficient to run a larger RO say a 1000gph unit? What size wire should I run? Thanks all for your input. I'm confident you're right.(famous last words?)

Need the amp draw printed on side motor(s) to give you the wire size needed. Under size the wire and it won't be pretty.

[madmapler]

The RO I'm using right now is smaller than what will be there in a year or two. I want to run wire sufficient to feed a 1000 gal per hr. unit but I dont know what kind of amps they draw. I'll just use a breaker thats appropriate for this unit until that time.Thanks.

[Tom Cook]

I have attached the Sap Brother info on electrical connections. I hope this will help.

[maple flats]

In many older configurations, for 220 (240) there was no neutral, in fact you technically do not need more than 2 if the loads are identical. However in your case it sounds like you have 2 different 110 (120)v loads. In this case the neutral (or green in your case) will only carry the unbalanced amp load. For example, if 2 loads, a 15A and a 10A are run as 240V, the ground or neutral will carry 5A back to the panel and the ballanced portion just play back and forth. In AC one is coming while the other is going.
Modern day wiring codes call for 4 wires, typically a black, red, white and green (or bare). The red and blacks can be other colors (ie, blue,orange or others) but can not be white, green or bare. In your case you would not be required to rewire it just take some high quality electrical tape and re label by wrapping black, red and white tap around the appropriate wires. Then connect black, and red to the breaker terminals and connect white to the neutral bar (not the isolated ground bar, if your panel has 2 ,isolated neutral bars, one is grounded to the cabinet, the other is isolated from it, In most systems there is only one and it is grounded to the cabinet) Do not connect the green to the isolated neutral unless you have 4 wires and you have a white connected to the non isolated buss bar.

[madmapler]

I have attached the Sap Brother info on electrical connections. I hope this will help.It helps tremendously. I understand the single white wire now. Thanks.

[maple flats]

It just sounds to me that whoever wired it just used common 110 (120) V wire and used the black,as black, white as red and green as neutral. While it will work, it is very poor practice and could injure or worse someone looking to work on the wires. However, relabeling by winding the correct color electrical tape around the wires every place they are joined in any box is a legal (and accepted by code) procedure.

[madmapler]

Well it sure messed me up. With all the input I've recieved I'm sure now that thats what happened. Another indicator is that instead of different color wires for each leg, they're all black. I really dont know where I'd be without the help found on the trader. I truly appreciate all your help.

[maple flats]

If all colors are black you will need a multi meter. With all power disconnected, tie 2 together at one end and test for continuity at the other. The 2 that show continuity at the other end can be labeled as I indicated above as black and red. They will be your 2 hot leads for the 240V power source. Just for safety, also test for continuity between each of the other wires. Each to the others. You should only get a reading on 2 wires. If you get continuity on more than 2, look for any place where the 2 might be joined. Separate all ground connections for this test. If you still get continuity on more than 2 wires, it is beyond my ability to help you without actually being there, Sorry.
If in fact you get only 2 that indicate continuity, as stated above, leave 1 black, label the other RED and label the 3rd as neutral. Then connect it after making all connections at the RO complete and secure, then, tie the black and red to the 2 terminals on the 240 breaker in the panel. Be sure not to use a breaker larger than the wire size and RO plate indicate, IE 14 ga =15A, 12ga=20A and 10ga=30A for the wire sizes. If you are not familiar with what these gauges look like, look for markings on the wire itself, they will be printed every foot along the wire (or more often) and will show as 12AWG or 14AWG etc. For nameplate info, look at the motors, they will show ratings such as starting amps (sometimes SA), full load amps (FLA) and voltage 110-115-120 or 220-230-240. Your breaker should be the smaller of the 2, either the amps from my gauge indications above or 150% of the FLA.
I hope I helped rather than further confused the matter.
Merry CHRISTmas.

[madmapler]

I should have explained better. I can trace the black leads to the terminal block and pick up the colored wires on the opposite side. Then I can trace them out from there. Sorry to make you go through all that. I did'nt know what SA and FLA meant though. I'll no doubt be referring back to this thread when I actually go to tie it in. Right now I'm working on rewiring the existing t12 flourescents to t8 but with all the mouse damage I'm finding (chewed wires)I'll probably end up replacing the whole units. Whats a couple hundred more dollars in this business? So much to do. So little time(and money!). Thanks again.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

If all colors are black you will need a multi meter. With all power disconnected, tie 2 together at one end and test for continuity at the other. The 2 that show continuity at the other end can be labeled as I indicated above as black and red. They will be your 2 hot leads for the 240V power source. Just for safety, also test for continuity between each of the other wires. Each to the others. You should only get a reading on 2 wires. If you get continuity on more than 2, look for any place where the 2 might be joined. Separate all ground connections for this test. If you still get continuity on more than 2 wires, it is beyond my ability to help you without actually being there, Sorry.
If in fact you get only 2 that indicate continuity, as stated above, leave 1 black, label the other RED and label the 3rd as neutral. Then connect it after making all connections at the RO complete and secure, then, tie the black and red to the 2 terminals on the 240 breaker in the panel. Be sure not to use a breaker larger than the wire size and RO plate indicate, IE 14 ga =15A, 12ga=20A and 10ga=30A for the wire sizes. If you are not familiar with what these gauges look like, look for markings on the wire itself, they will be printed every foot along the wire (or more often) and will show as 12AWG or 14AWG etc. For nameplate info, look at the motors, they will show ratings such as starting amps (sometimes SA), full load amps (FLA) and voltage 110-115-120 or 220-230-240. Your breaker should be the smaller of the 2, either the amps from my gauge indications above or 150% of the FLA.
I hope I helped rather than further confused the matter.
Merry CHRISTmas.
AWG selection is as listed above but you can only load a particular AWG wire to 80% of its capacity. So 12AWG is good for 20Amps but you can only load it to 16Amps. So if you happen to have a piece of equipment that requires 17 Amps you must go to next size larger wire same applies to the breaker.

[maple flats]

Having wired several houses and connected a few hundred furnaces I did not know that (the 80% rule), and I was the main trouble shooter when anything had issues in the furnace business. Is it in the NEC (national electrical code)? If yes, can you possibly reference the article number for me to study?
Thanks,
Dave

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Having wired several houses and connected a few hundred furnaces I did not know that (the 80% rule), and I was the main trouble shooter when anything had issues in the furnace business. Is it in the NEC (national electrical code)? If yes, can you possibly reference the article number for me to study?
Thanks,
Dave
this is what I am thinking about don't believe it fits for what we are talking about my bad, unless a cord and plug is used
210.21B2
16 is 80% of 20

310.15B3a is obvious this could be another place I was thinking of.
For the breaker a full 20A can be applied unless the load to it is considered continuous than it is at 80%

[maple flats]

Thanks, that sounds more realistic. While they both would have been used in our business, however I don't specifically recall reading that before.
Thanks,
Dave

[1arch]

It just sounds to me that whoever wired it just used common 110 (120) V wire and used the black,as black, white as red and green as neutral. While it will work, it is very poor practice and could injure or worse someone looking to work on the wires. However, relabeling by winding the correct color electrical tape around the wires every place they are joined in any box is a legal (and accepted by code) procedure.
I've been in the electrical trade over 25 years and Dave is quite possibly correct. Seen the white used as a phase color before. A 240 volt piece of equipment doesn't typically require a neutral however a ground is always required. If the ground wire is used as a neutral to carry an unbalanced current this is a code violation and potentially a safety hazard.The ohm meter will confirm. All said it is possible the equipment should be rewired for 4 wires to incorporate standard wiring practices not always adhered to by some smaller equipment manucaturers. I know you didn't want to hear that.
If you can drag up the future equipment hp or amperage rating and circuit length I can easily run the wire sizing calcs to ensure you are set for the next ro.

[BAP]

If you are running wire to your new sugar house, don't run the size you need now, instead run what you might need in the future. It is a real pain and expensive if 2 or 3 years from now you decide to upgrade to a much bigger RO and not have enough power to run it because the wire is too small. Also, if the wire is not big enough, you will get voltage drop which is extremely bad for motors. They will still run, but will burn up over time. Best to do it right the first time, because motors and re-doing the wiring is expensive. Don't forget that it isn't only your RO drawing power, but things like lights, pumps if you have any, syrup filters and etc that need to be figured in to your power needs.

[madmapler]

Thats why I asked in an earlier post about how many amps a 600 or 1000 gph RO draws. The power was already run to the building I converted. Its only 60 amp. I can and will change that in the future however I still need to know what size wire to run to the RO room from the panel. BTW the panel and everything beyond it is upgraded already. Any replies would be appreciated.

[unc23win]

Shawn, I think it depends on what RO you would be interested in for the future. For instance Leader 1000 says 44 amps and a Lapierre 1200 says 65 amps. I am using some 4 wire I forget the number on it but its 4 wires and it is good for up to 100 amps.

[madmapler]

Thanks Jared, Thats more than I thought.

[maple flats]

When planning wire gauges, you must also take distance into account. A wire that will properly carry 20A or 30A or 40A at 50', will not carry the same amperage at lets say 200'.

[unc23win]

Yea you can buy that wire by the foot though so you don't end up with extra. I know you said you have Small Bro I have one as well I got sued this will be my first season with it and mine is actually expandable from 600 to 1200gph all I need is another tower and membrane it already has the bigger pump. Which is what I might do for next season my dealer told me it would be about $2500 to do that. A new gen Lapierre 1200 is about 28K. I am almost on the same page as you as far as expanding last season I had 1400 taps.

[Thad Blaisdell]

WOW that is way overpriced for a 1200..... You had better check out H20! around 18k-19k this spring for an 1800.

[madmapler]

When planning wire gauges, you must also take distance into account. A wire that will properly carry 20A or 30A or 40A at 50', will not carry the same amperage at lets say 200'.

My RO will need about 25' of wire from the panel so would I be correct to say that 4awg copper will be sufficient to carry a 60 amp load? Would 6awg be sufficient?

[maple flats]

Is that from the main panel, or a sub panel? If you are running the sugar house off a sub panel you also need to calculate the voltage loss if any there when the RO is running.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

310-15B16

#6=copper
60C=55
75C=65A
90C=75A

#4=copper
60C=70A
75C=85A
90C=95A

what is the insulation rating on the wire? thhn, thwn, xhhw, tw,uf, rhw,? it all makes a difference

VD=(KxIxD)/CM

cm=(KxIxD)/VD

D=(CMxVD)/(KxI)

VD=voltage drop
K=Direct-current constant. K represents the DC resistance for a 1,000-circular mils conductor that is 1,000 feet long, at an operating temperature of 75°C copper=(25.8 or 10.7)
Al (42.4 or 17)
I=amps
D=distance
CM=circular mils

on electrical motors if I remember correctly your allowed 10% over voltage and 5% under before you start doing damage to the windings

NEC suggests up to 3% on feeders, and up to 3% on branch ckts., but not more than 5% total.
210.19(A)(1) FPN No. 4 and after 215.2(A)(3) FPN No. 2.

[TunbridgeDave]

I broke down and had an electrician completely re-wire my mine, because I felt the same way you did. I know you can in-fact run a 220 volt motor with only 2 wires. Since the 110 lines are opposite phase of each other you don't need the neutral wire. The motor should have a diagram showing how it's wired for 220 and if the black and white wires go to line 1 and line 2 than it's ready for 220. Also the motors should have an amperage rating on them so you can size your wires and breaker. I think you can expect a benchmark of around 100gph for each 4" membrane. I get 210 for mine with 2 xle's.

Was this the machine that was at Bascom's?

[madmapler]

Was this the machine that was at Bascom's? Yes it is. They advertised it as a 115gph machine and thats what was on the tag but it looked as though 2 more posts had been added at a later date. I need to check my membranes as these are no doubt pretty old. However I was told that the machine sat around for most of its life without being used. Probably best to start out with new ones though..... I just noticed you have an eco 50. Is that the one I have? I have a brochure with all the models but its confusing. Mine has a 3hp tonkaflo pump with 1/2 hp feed pump. 3 posts but as I said, I thought 2 were added. Thats great to hear that it does so well with the xle's. Those are the ones I was thihking about getting. Do you need any special adaptors to change over? Sorry for all the questions but I've been hoping to find someone who knows something about these machines.Thanks, Sean

[TunbridgeDave]

If it's got the 3 hp Tonka flow pump it must be the 100 or 150. I have a bunch of stuff that came with mine, from Osmonics and Small Bros too. The 50 and Eco-50 had only 2 vessels. The 75 and Eco-75 had 3. The real difference between the eco and non eco was the pump. I don't see that there was any difference in flow rates though according to the book. It's a little confusing because it looks like the 100 had 4 vessels though and that's what the 3hp pump should be able to handle. I believe the 150 used all six spots in the same housing, but still had the same 3hp tonkaflow pump. Beyond that, they would use longer vessels with 2 membranes in each. I suppose since the case is exactly the same for several models there's no way to tell what the machine was originally without the model plate still on it. Mine says ECO-50 right on it and I only have the 3/4 hp procon pump, but I get much better results than the original membranes. The feed pumps were all pretty much the same in these smaller units. It was basically a cast iron 1/2 hp Jacuzzi pool/spa pump. That was a problem because it would rust. So I changed the pump over to an all brass one, using the same motor. Another important thing is the sediment filter was too small for these new higher flow membranes. I bought a 20" filter to replace the 10" one it came with. This is important because when these machines were made we were getting at best a quart of syrup per tap and the machine was designed for so many taps. Today we are getting twice as much per tap and putting twice as much sap or more through the same machine. I know mine says it was made for 900-1300 taps, but I have to run it all day to keep up with my 900+.

That being said, I plan on adding 2 more membranes to my machine this winter. At first I'm gonna try it without upgrading the pump and see what happens. My theory is that I will be able to reach a higher concentration in one pass even though my total flow might not increase much. Call Joe at AtlanticRO.com for the best prices on membranes anywhere. He's got the vessels too. He also has all the adapters if you need them. I don't think you will though. Make note of how the vessel is put together too. There is a seal that goes on one end of the membrane and not the other.

Dave.

[madmapler]

Thanks a lot Dave. I also sent you a PM this morning(Ithink). I have talked to Joe at Atlantic. Good guy. You've helped clear up a few things. I hope you dont mind if I call on you from time to time.Thanks again.

[TunbridgeDave]

Glad to be of help. Got the pm fine, but I like to post here if possible so others can chime in or benefit from our conversation.

[1arch]

My RO will need about 25' of wire from the panel so would I be correct to say that 4awg copper will be sufficient to carry a 60 amp load? Would 6awg be sufficient?

A #6awg copper with a 60 amp continuous load 25' long will have a voltage drop of .5%. Very minimal. A #4awg copper will have a .3%
If it were mine a #6 awg would be used. Another point worth mentioning is the connection at the circuit breaker or any termination is typically the weak link. One poor connection could introduce an extreme voltage drop which eventually results in overheating and eventual failure.

[madmapler]

A #6awg copper with a 60 amp continuous load 25' long will have a voltage drop of .5%. Very minimal. A #4awg copper will have a .3%
If it were mine a #6 awg would be used. Another point worth mentioning is the connection at the circuit breaker or any termination is typically the weak link. One poor connection could introduce an extreme voltage drop which eventually results in overheating and eventual failure. Thanks for your direct response.