What do you think of this article? I think it's like child labor for maple trees.

[Revi]

Here's an article on research they are doing into tapping saplings as small as 2" diameter. It turns out you can get more sap out of them by cutting the top of the sapling off and sucking out all it's sap.

I think it is another way of ruining what is a great industry. Live forests provide a lot more than just sap. They provide lumber, firewood and game a place to live for example. Turning them into some kind of production sapling field sounds creepy to me.

http://bartonchronicle.com/researchers-extract-sap-maple-saplings/

[maple flats]

Very interesting. I'd love to hear some input from Dr. Tim. The writer should also learn more about the main character, and give Dr. Tim his credentials as deserved.

[unc23win]

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?21197-New-publications/page3

http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/?Page=news&storyID=17209

[StayinLowTech]

Looks like a good way to utilize the saplings in a bush that you are thinning for "traditional" large tree production. If I knew what the fitting on the bag was I would try it where I am thinning.

[DrTimPerkins]

Turning them into some kind of production sapling field sounds creepy to me.

People have been coppicing and pollarding trees since before history has been recorded. It is a very common practice in biomass production (willow and other species). Apple trees used to grow as individuals before being grouped into orchards for management. 75 yrs ago you couldn't go to a Christmas tree plantation and cut a tree, you had to go out into the woods. Now these are all considered to be quite normal, and not "creepy" at all.

We are not advocating that everyone cut their sugarbushes down and plant saplings. Rather, this is a method, or a tool, that some producers may choose to use in certain situations if and where it could be useful. Examples:

1. A maple experiences an ice storm that destroys 90% of their crop trees. This method could get them back to making syrup in less than 10 yrs.

2. The Asian Longhorned beetle is found in a sugarbush. All mature trees within a 1/2 mile radius are cut to prevent the spread of the insect, but it destroys the livelihood of the producer. This method could allow the producer to continue making syrup on sections of their forest that were regenerating.

3. A producer with 5,000 taps wants to transition into the maple industry as a full-time occupation, but can't come up with the $2M to buy land with maple trees (or there isn't suitable land near them). By planting 20 acres of trees, he can produce as much as if he had 200 acres of sugarbush.

There are still people around who think tubing is creepy. There are some who wouldn't ever think of sucking sap out of those poor trees with vacuum. Even more think that reverse osmosis is a terrible thing. The maple industry just couldn't survive (except in a minor way) without those technological advances. Syrup would cost too much for most anyone to buy if the entire industry still used buckets and boiled raw sap.

The reality is that 99% of maple saplings die before they reach maturity. This occurs either due to natural thinning, or to maple producers thinning them out to release their crop trees. This new method allows producers to actually make some syrup from these trees without having to wait the 30-50 yrs it would take otherwise.

So unusual.....yes. Rather odd....definitely. Ruining the industry.....unlikely. It is simply another form of agriculture. I'd rather see this than the hillsides growing condos.

[DrTimPerkins]

If I knew what the fitting on the bag was I would try it where I am thinning.

Wait about 2 yrs. :)

[spud]

Very well said Dr.Tim. I was wondering if instead of a person thinning their woods by cutting sapling could they tap these saplings into the mainlines already in the woods? Some of your taps would be from larger trees and then others would be top cut saplings like in the photo you showed. I guess what I am trying to say is do I need to plant these sapling in their own location or can I use the many saplings that are already in my woods? If I could I might be able to add 1500 more taps in my woods on trees that were just going to get cut down anyway.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

....do I need to plant these sapling in their own location or can I use the many saplings that are already in my woods?

We have not done a lot of work looking at yields of saplings growing in the understory of mature trees. Photosynthesis and carbon acquisition is often fairly low in those types of trees (living on the edge). My suspicion is that the amount of sugar you could get from them would be fairly low (due to the slow growth rates and low sugar content), and the mortality would be fairly rapid (you might get 3-5 yrs of sap from them). However, given that you'd be cutting them anyhow.....the only real downside would be the question of whether it would cost you more in time/materials to harvest from them than you would recoup doing it. No good answer to that question yet.

[3GoatHill]

I have two concerns. 1. It will eventually lead to overproduction. 2. How will the public perceive this? With the buy local movement gaining more and more momentum and the mistrust of "factory farms", how will they view this? I would say educating the public will be a challenge. Thoughts?

[DrTimPerkins]

1. It will eventually lead to overproduction. 2. How will the public perceive this?

1. Supply and demand typically control production in one way or another. Overproduction cannot continue unchecked, regardless of how a product is produced. We are in a state of overproduction now (NOT caused by this method). What is probably more likely is that there will be a change in the balance of production method. Right now, calculations show that this new method has about the same cost of production (per gallon) as does current methods, so there is no more incentive to overproduce than exists at this point. Now if over time this new method becomes cheaper, then it could start to displace current methods, but that is still just conjecture, and if it happens, it is a long way from happening.

2. The public will perceive it in varying ways, much like members on this list. Some will think it atrocious. Others will think it innovative. I have certainly heard others say that it doesn't fit the "traditional image" of maple production. That is absolutely true. Then again, the currently-used methods of production (tubing, vacuum, reverse osmosis) does not fit the traditional image (men in flannel shirts emptying buckets of sap into horse-drawn sledges) either. If you asked your great-grandfather what he thought of starting a Christmas tree farm and getting people to come cut their trees there, he'd have probably thought you were nuts and that nobody would ever want to do that.....but it is the accepted "traditional" practice now.

[psparr]

What about the scenario of a blow down. You could cut cut the tree chest high, bag it and suck it?

[DrTimPerkins]

What about the scenario of a blow down. You could cut cut the tree chest high, bag it and suck it?

We have not looked into this approach. It would definitely be a one-time collection at that point. Once maple trees (especially sugar maple) get more than 3-4" diameter, they have a much reduced capacity for resprouting branches, especially along the trunk. Smaller saplings are much more able to resprout from latent buds in the stem.

[PerryFamily]

With possibly a different style or length of spout, could this theory or information be applied to tapping 2-3" tree?

[DrTimPerkins]

With possibly a different style or length of spout, could this theory or information be applied to tapping 2-3" tree?

No. We've compared traditional tapping of these saplings. The yields are significantly lower. With a completely cut stem you have a much higher surface area for the vacuum to act upon to draw sap through.

[PerryFamily]

Thanks Dr Tim . I have been thinking of that word " surface area " , had a brain cramp before. Makes sense now.

[markct]

I had a sapling that was oozing sap where it was cut off last year and I was very tempted to slide a piece of large milk hose over it and squeeze the other end down on a stubby spout but thought it would be crazy and couldn't be much sap in that tiny tree, but I guess I should have tried it!

[madmapler]

Wait about 2 yrs. :) Are you pretty confident that this will be available in a few years? I read somewhere else (another thread maybe?)that it could take about 6 yrs. to grow a tree to the right size. I ask because I have an area on my hill that I cleared a few years ago on the south slope for reason of a view. Would it be too soon to consider planting some trees?

[DrTimPerkins]

Are you pretty confident that this will be available in a few years?

It depends upon whether any equipment manufacturers decide to make the collection devices. Plantations will take a while to develop. I expect the first application of this approach will be in dense regenerating stands.

[markct]

So how would the logistics of tubing this work? Im thinking you would use fairly long drop lines so you could reach many different saplings without retubing. Also are you saying that a small sapling cut would then resprout and be again tappable with this method in a couple years? I have many sugar maple saplings along the edge of a field i may hook to a small vac tank to try this might as well get something out of them instead of just taking the chainsaw to them. I am thinking of trying some of the rubber things ya use on a cows udder for milking since they are food grade and seems with a few hose clamps or tie wires could be made to seal the stem end

[DrTimPerkins]

So how would the logistics of tubing this work?

Young trees (saplings < 2" dbh) that have good exposure to the sun have a pretty good capacity to resprout branches.

My suggestion (to all) is to wait 2 yrs and the devices to accomplish this may very well be available. If you try it with the rubber udder cups (or some other fashion) and it leaks, there will be very little ability to see and fix the leaks, you'll end up with fairly low vacuum, and thus you may conclude it doesn't work well. Just give us some time to work out the devices with the manufacturers and to write up the methods and everyone will be much better off.

[Revi]

I guess I am a traditionalist. I think having tapping guidelines is a good thing. I think the main problem I have with this is that this will blur that line. People will start to tap trees down to 2 inches and eventually there will only be 2 inch trees coppiced, and we will lose all the benefits of the working forest.

[markct]

Excelent point about black color dr Tim. Not trying to steal your research but the curiosity and availability of saplings has me wanting to try it, maybe some clear soft hose will be better as you can see sap flow and leaks.

[DrTimPerkins]

I guess I am a traditionalist. I think having tapping guidelines is a good thing. I think the main problem I have with this is that this will blur that line. People will start to tap trees down to 2 inches and eventually there will only be 2 inch trees coppiced, and we will lose all the benefits of the working forest.

I agree that having tapping guidelines is a good thing. However guidelines are not laws, they are guidelines (unless you are tapping on another person's property, then it is dictated by the agreement you have with them). We are NOT advocating that people TAP small trees. If you tap such small trees with traditional methods, you will get fairly poor sap yields and very quickly compartmentalize all the wood within those saplings. We are also NOT advocating that people cut down their mature maples and replace them with plantations. Rather, this new method is simply another tool that might be useful in certain circumstances. Like most things, it is your right to not like it and not do it, the same as it is other peoples right to try it if they wish.

[DrTimPerkins]

Not trying to steal your research but the curiosity and availability of saplings has me wanting to try it, maybe some clear soft hose will be better as you can see sap flow and leaks.

Mark....not worried about that (that is what patents are for after all). We have tried a lot different kinds of things for the sap collection device over the last few years. Some worked well, others less so. The real critical thing is that the devices need to be easy to put on and take off, inexpensive, easy to manufacture, able to fit a variety of stem sizes and shapes, vacuum-tight, and clear and (so we can observe sap flow and vacuum leaks). My concern is more that people will try things that don't meet these criteria, then give up and say "it doesn't work". The thing that would be most helpful now is that if this is something you think you might want to try at some point, tell the equipment manufacturers. We're willing to work with them, but ultimately they are the folks who will have to build and market these things.

[nymapleguy607]

What does the sugar content tend to be for the saplings? Did the trees that were tapped each year have a new growth of branches and leaves? Sounds very interesting.

[DrTimPerkins]

What does the sugar content tend to be for the saplings? Did the trees that were tapped each year have a new growth of branches and leaves? Sounds very interesting.

Sap sugar content runs pretty close to normal, but will drop off a bit faster during an extended thaw.

Yes, the saplings had vigorous growth in the summer after being cut off. Larger saplings have less vigorous growth. Saplings under a forest canopy will have less vigorous growth also.

[Sullydog]

Dr Tim..I didn't see the gallons of sap per sapling anyplace, just wondering what it was. Thanks very interesting stuff.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim..I didn't see the gallons of sap per sapling anyplace

The average yield, for a multiple-stemmed sapling (but using only one extraction device per plant) is 0.073 gal SYRUP per stem, so a little more than 9 ounces of syrup per stem. That is quite low in comparison to a mature tree, however when you consider that a well-stocked maple stand only has 80-120 taps per acre (many stands have far lower stocking levels than that). At 0.4 gallons syrup/acre, you get 32-48 gallons of syrup per acre with current practice. With this method you would have up to 5,800 stems per acre (that is at a 2' spacing between plants within rows, 2.5' spacing between rows, with every third row left out for access), which means about 400 gallons per acre. That would be for maple saplings with normal sap sugar content. If you planted sweet-tree seedling stock, then an increase from an average sap sugar content of 2% to 3% would mean you would make 600 gallons per acre (and the cost per gallon for production would correspondingly go down).

[GeneralStark]

Mark....not worried about that (that is what patents are for after all). We have tried a lot different kinds of things for the sap collection device over the last few years. Some worked well, others less so. The real critical thing is that the devices need to be easy to put on and take off, inexpensive, easy to manufacture, able to fit a variety of stem sizes and shapes, vacuum-tight, and clear and (so we can observe sap flow and vacuum leaks). My concern is more that people will try things that don't meet these criteria, then give up and say "it doesn't work". The thing that would be most helpful now is that if this is something you think you might want to try at some point, tell the equipment manufacturers. We're willing to work with them, but ultimately they are the folks who will have to build and market these things.

Not so sure about that. Sure, you are hoping to get the patent on this technology but it won't be too tough to reverse engineer these "devices".

[DrTimPerkins]

Sure, you are hoping to get the patent on this technology but it won't be too tough to reverse engineer these "devices".

Reverse engineering is possible with many things, but that means pretty much nothing in terms of the patent. When you write a patent is has to be fairly specific, but you also try to include a number of possible configurations (which we did). It isn't a problem that people try to make a few of them in their homes. It is a problem if somebody makes tens of thousands of them and sells them without licensing the technology.

Our patent application covered both the method and the devices used. So it wouldn't matter much if you simply changed the device a little (reverse engineering), but still put it over a cut woody sapling to collect sap -- it is still covered by our application.

I guess the only other thing I'd say about this aspect is.....you're assuming we didn't learn much about how to do it successfully over 4 yrs time.

[Ball Brook Maple]

As I sit here and think about the article and all the questions and reactions I can see plantations working for maple production similar to fruit producing orchards and Christmas tree farms. One thought that quickly comes to mind is the the consequences associated with monoculture. Neighboring orchards and tree farms have lists of insect and disease problems that require fungicides and insecticide application throughout the better part of the year. Growing trees like a crop in open sunlight would probably also require some sort of herbicide treatment to keep grasses and weeds in check? How would these chemical treatments affect marketing a traditional "all natural" food product?

[DrTimPerkins]

In a plantation this dense there should be no need for herbicides as there will not be enough light to allow much ground growth. Initially however, mulch would be needed when planting. The bigger issue would be preventing herbivory by deer or damage by mice. In terms of insects, that is a concern. In many cases, sugarbushes are near monocultures already. BT is an allowed and effective non-chemical insecticide that is used with success in some outbreaks for maple stands (often NOT for organic producers, as the oil-based carrier is not considered organic). The problem is that application (by plane or helicopter) in large mature stands is extremely costly and typically has to be done by several producers close together to keep the costs manageable. In a plantation BT could be applied from the ground, and on only 1/10th the area, so should be far cheaper and more effective.