Questions for using XLE 4040 in a small homemade RO

[bashworth]

I am in the search & discovery stage for adding a home made RO system to my 300 tap set up. I am zeroing in on using a Filmtec XLE 4040 membrane and have a couple of mysteries that I cannot find answers for.

1. What is the minimum sap flow rate I need to push the sap through the membrane? I am thinking of using a Procon pump that puts out 100 gph at 250 psi. Will
this be adequate? Is it likely to lead to early fouling of the membrane?

2. I am looking at ss canisters for the membrane. There is a substantial price increase for ones that come with U pins compared to end clamps. Are the U pins
worth the extra cost?

[SWEETSAP]

Basically there is not a minimum flow rate however I use the xle 4040 and can tell you that with a 250 psi pump you will need to feed it about 1.7 gallons per minute or 102 gal per hour. If you boost the pressure to 350 psi with a boost pump you will need a feed of about 150 gal per hour. Cold sap reduces the need by as much as 30 % so a basic system would work with a 100 gph pump.

Considering the housings I am currently leaning to a change to the codeline 300 psi side entry unit about $200 each. These vessels were tested at 450psi and have a burst pressure of 1200psi.

The choice of pins vs clamps is clamps will fail at a lower pressure, they both will work at 300psi but the pin version may run fine at 450 psi where the clamp may fail at 350psi.

[bowhunter]

Here's a technical bulletin from Dow on maximum/minimum conditions for various membranes in different applications. They don't mention maple sap applications, but I think it's safe to assume there is a minimum recommended concentrate flow sap. http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_08ca/0901b803808caf76.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-02054.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

[TunbridgeDave]

The great thing about the XLE's is they work well at lower pressures. I start mine out at 200psi and they get up to about 300psi when really fouled. I have clamp style end caps and they've never leaked. I even got the pressure up to 450 once (actually stalled the procon pump) but nothing leaked anywhere. My guess is the size pump you are looking at would be just right for one 4" membrane. My pump is about twice the size for my 2 membranes.

One other thought, I've got a recirc loop on my machine which lets you achieve higher concentrate levels and helps with fouling. There is an adjustable valve that takes some of the concentrate and runs it back to the intake of the procon pump. I actually don't use it much though because I can make more permeate per hour by running the concentrate back to the storage tank and recirculating until I reach the level I want, then I divert it to my feed tank. It's more of a hands on approach since you have to keep checking the concentrate. If I want to "one pass it" I'll use the recirc loop/valve and set it and forget it.

[bashworth]

Thanks TunbridgeDave,

I ended up getting a Procon pump that puts out 240 GPH on advice from Atlantic RO. Glad to hear that the clamp style clamps have not leaked - that is what I ended up with too.

One further question about running the concentrate back to the sap tank and running until you get the sugar concentration you want - I read that the concentrate tends to drop to the bottom of the tank and displaces the sap when it is reintroduced thereby making it tough to get a homogeneous end product. Have you noticed that or do you stir the concentrate into the sap as you reintroduce it. Also, would you mind telling me what you use for tubing in your RO system?

Cheers

[bashworth]

Thanks Kawasaki Mule

Now I need to figure out what type of 4040 membrane I have... but I get the impression that my pump will not exceed the maximum input allowances for any of the 4 inch membranes. That's a good thing.

Cheers

[stoweski]

Did you get the 300psi vessel for Joe also or did you pay extra for the 600psi? Also, you got the series 4 procon pump... What hp motor did you get/are you using?

My bush is the same size as yours. I'm going to attempt to build a RO very similar to yours. I was planning on using braided hoses from www.hosecraftusa.com (model ra1-as) for the high pressure lines. Don't yet know what low pressure hoses I'm going to use.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

heres the latest on setting my three post up
83688369837083718372

[bashworth]

To be honest, I'm not sure what the pressure rating of the vessel I got is - my guess is 300psi - it is part PV4040SS & I paid $128 for it if that gives you any clue. The motor is a 3/4 hp. Thanks for the lead on the braided hoses.

[stoweski]

heres the latest on setting my three post up


Looks like Thad rubbed off on you a bit! Is the feed pump from TSC? Looks like the one he recommended to me.

I, like ADK, like to over plan things and make 100% sure I know what I'm doing before I jump in head first. Think I have exactly what I need - just need to buy it and assemble.

Looks like a neat project that will save small producers a lot of $$!

Should work well for you - good luck!

And yes bash, that is the 300psi vessel. The 600psi at more than twice as much.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Looks like Thad rubbed off on you a bit! Is the feed pump from TSC? Looks like the one he recommended to me.

I, like ADK, like to over plan things and make 100% sure I know what I'm bought it from before I jump in head first. Think I have exactly what I need - just need to buy it and assemble.

Looks like a neat project that will save small producers a lot of $$!

Should work well for you - good luck!

And yes bash, that is the 300psi vessel. The 600psi at more than twice as much.

Actually bought it from home depot but yea similiar to thads

[TunbridgeDave]

Sorry bashworth I didn't get back to you earlier. I run the concentrate back to the storage tank on the opposite end of the tank and have gotten pretty consistent results. As far as the tubing I use, the original machine has high pressure nylon tubing in it. I believe the burst pressure is 1000psi. You can buy the same stuff from USPlastics.com. The Parker - Fast - Tite fittings work slick for hooking it all together. Stowski was wondering what pump size, mine has a 3/4 hp Baldor motor model CL1307. Plenty to run the 240gph procon.