Homemade Automatic Drawoff with Barometric Compensation

[mvh1969]

If anyone has successfully made an automatic drawoff with the automatic barometric compensation feature, can you please provide some feedback to whether it has worked better then the temperature only approach etc?

[regor0]

As far as I can figure info on the barometric compensation feature is as elusive as Bigfoot. I built a basic one that works great, just keep track of the boiling point of water, Marcland has a chart that is also helpful. I have been trying to find info on how to build the compensating feature with no luck yet.

[Marcland]

MARCLAND has had a Barometric Compensated Auto Draw-Off for over fifteen years. These units work fine but are actually "OVERKILL" and usually cost much more than a regular On/Off auto draw-off. As has been stated, a regular auto draw off actually works better if you just keep track of it and make small adjustments to keep your density correct. The Baro/Comp units are really made for super large operations that are producing QUANTITY-QUALITY syrup that is sold by the barrel in bulk to large reprocessers. Baro/Comp units are not worth the price difference from the On/Off units...somewhere between $500.00 to $1000.00. The Baro/Comp unit monitors barometric changes and automatically adjusts the temperature controller's set point...this maintains your boiling point plus 7.0F draw off set point. One thing to note is that the operator is unable to easily change controller functions...because it is designed to operate "HANDS OFF." For almost all producers, this is totally unacceptable.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Thad uses a auto baro draw unit very easy to adjust and accurate.
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[500592]

Does anybody know the patent number for the marcland barometric unit I would like to look at.

[maple addiction]

i have a macland barometric drawoff just dont have solinoid i would sell if someone wants

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I'm pretty sure shoemaker at smoky lakes has all the part numbers to a Marcland units

[500592]

maple addiction try putting it on ebay i bet you could sell it pretty easy

[regor0]

I'm pretty sure shoemaker at smoky lakes has all the part numbers to a Marcland units

I've never looked close at a Marcland or Smokey Lake, so I can't judge, but that has been bothering me too. I hope he just came up with a better mouse trap.

[mvh1969]

I was wondering the same thing, went from being a marcland dealer to creating his own product offering, then after seeing the ad marcland ran towards the back of the last issue of the maple news, well nm


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[Dennis H.]

The whole concept of the drawoff is quit simple, not much there. A motorized valve, a temp probe and a PID controller.
So besides who actually came up with the idea of a drawoff originally, to build one in the end they will all start to look and work the same.
Maybe different valves, maybe different brand of PID controller, but they will still be very similar.

I would be really interested in knowing who really came up with the idea of the auto drawoff, and what the original one looked like.

Don't get me wrong, Marcland makes a great product, but it is way overpriced. I see the prices are lowering a little, and I think that is because he is finally getting a little compatition. from other manufacturers.

[Daryl]

Service after the sale means a lot.
I have a Marcland drawoff that works great on a Smoky lake evaporator.

[FDA]

I was wondering the same thing, went from being a marcland dealer to creating his own product offering, then after seeing the ad marcland ran towards the back of the last issue of the maple news, well nm


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I have been thinking about buying an auto draw off. I don't get the maple news is marcland having a sale? What does the ad say?

[Daryl]

Add says "A) Get their BEST price
B) Call Marcland
C) Get a Better Price.

[FDA]

Sounds like this is the year to buy a auto draw. I will call smokey to see what their best price is than go from there. Maybe when the dust settles I might get it for free?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Sounds like this is the year to buy a auto draw. I will call smokey to see what their best price is than go from there. Maybe when the dust settles I might get it for free?
i think Marcland will do that just to make a point, just saying.
you could give me the money to buy something from shoemaker and i would video myself burning it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jmayerl]

Add says "A) Get their BEST price
B) Call Marcland
C) Get a Better Price.
Let's see a picture if that ad. Does Marcland sell direct?

[FDA]

If smokey sends me two for free I will send one to you than.

[Dennis H.]

Come on Flat Lander tell us how you really feel!

I'm not sure if I am understanding what the big deal is with an other manufacture of a piece of maple syrup production equipment.
It will only help bring the cost that we have to pay to make the syrup down. In the end it will only help us out.

If you are saying that someone stole another's idea well I don't see that is how it happen. Just look at almost everything that we have or use on any given day. More that one company probably makes that same or similar item. I see that this is no different.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Come on Flat Lander tell us how you really feel!

I'm not sure if I am understanding what the big deal is with an other manufacture of a piece of maple syrup production equipment.
It will only help bring the cost that we have to pay to make the syrup down. In the end it will only help us out.

If you are saying that someone stole another's idea well I don't see that is how it happen. Just look at almost everything that we have or use on any given day. More that one company probably makes that same or similar item. I see that this is no different.

I cant tell you how I really feel because Kim would ban me from the site and I dont want that.

Now did I go around to different companies and look at their arches before I made mine? YES I did
Did I start mass producing and selling "my arch"? NO

Wonder how the Maple Guys would feel if I took their Accu cup that I just bought from them over to a fabricating shop and had them start making the cups for me? The only thing I would probably change would be the thermometer because I would just pick up some on the internet.

I would have to think I wouldn't make any friends with them if I did that.

[mvh1969]

I agree with Flat Lander. Especially after seeing the ad Marcland posted in the last issue of the Maple news about "someone" having an exact copy of their product, even the instructions are the same!


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[bowhunter]

Based on comments here it sounds like Marcland's patent is close to expiring. Fortunately or unfortunately you don't get to use your ideas exclusively forever. I believe per US patent laws design patents are good for 14 years.

[saekeaton64]

I have been working the last month or so on an Auto Draw w/ Barometric Compensation.

The first picture shows the unit during the design phase.

The second picture is of the barometric pressure sensor and temperature sensor.

In the third picture you can see the front of the unit, the display shows the temperature at the sensor, the Boiling Point (BP) of water based on the barometric pressure, how many degrees above the boiling point you wish to draw off, and the Max. temp before the alarm goes off. (the Max. temp is the boiling point+ degrees above boiling point+ 3 degrees)

The switches from left to right are, 1 the power switch, 2 the alarm shutoff switch, 3 manual valve open switch, then the knob allows you to adjust the degrees above boiling point you draw off at; currently the range is from 4 -16 deg.

The forth and fifth pictures show the side of the unit where the temperature probe and connection for the auto valve are.

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[FDA]

Day three email sent and phone message left to smokey pond and no response for a lowball price on his draw offs yet. I will keep you all posted on what his best price is.

[Dennis H.]

Saekeaton64, man does that bring back memories for me. Fab'in stuff together on breadboards with discrete components, man were they the days.
Very nice looking setup.
I can't make out the name on the microcontroller, who makes it?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I have been working the last month or so on an Auto Draw w/ Barometric Compensation.

The first picture shows the unit during the design phase.

The second picture is of the barometric pressure sensor and temperature sensor.

In the third picture you can see the front of the unit, the display shows the temperature at the sensor, the Boiling Point (BP) of water based on the barometric pressure, how many degrees above the boiling point you wish to draw off, and the Max. temp before the alarm goes off. (the Max. temp is the boiling point+ degrees above boiling point+ 3 degrees)

The switches from left to right are, 1 the power switch, 2 the alarm shutoff switch, 3 manual valve open switch, then the knob allows you to adjust the degrees above boiling point you draw off at; currently the range is from 4 -16 deg.

The forth and fifth pictures show the side of the unit where the temperature probe and connection for the auto valve are.

83958396839783988399


sorry for hijacking the thread

[saekeaton64]

The micro controller I am using is the Arduino Uno, easy to work with and the programming is C based so not bad there either. I agree with the other comments about the prices for the auto draws being to high. This is the reason I decided to start working on this one. I just can't see spending $500,$600,$700 on a basic unit that has limited features and $1000 + for the decked out ones.
Other units with the barometric compensation are " hands off " and the user is limited to the program on the unit with no way to make adjustments.
Using the micro controller I have selected allows me to program in the ability to adjust the draw off temp as needed to make sure the density is correct. A high temp alarm is also included to protect your pans in the case of a valve failure.
Currently the unit is being beta tested. If everything works out as planned, I may have a few on the market for next season.

If anyone has other features they would like to see on an auto draw valve let me know and I may try to include them into my design.

Thanks.

[Jim Schumacher]

Service after the sale means a lot.*
I have a Marcland drawoff that works great on a Smoky lake evaporator.



Well put Daryl. I'm glad your happy with the new evaporator. And glad your existing drawoff works well on it. I'd love to see some pictures of it all set up!

[Jim Schumacher]

I cant tell you how I really feel because Kim would ban me from the site and I dont want that.

Now did I go around to different companies and look at their arches before I made mine? YES I did
Did I start mass producing and selling "my arch"? NO

Wonder how the Maple Guys would feel if I took their Accu cup that I just bought from them over to a fabricating shop and had them start making the cups for me? The only thing I would probably change would be the thermometer because I would just pick up some on the internet.

I would have to think I wouldn't make any friends with them if I did that.

flatlander, I am sorry for your bitter feeling. Despite your ill feelings, please consider trying a product from Smoky Lake Maple Products, I really think you would be quite happy. Take care now.

[Jim Schumacher]

Day three email sent and phone message left to smokey pond and no response for a lowball price on his draw offs yet. I will keep you all posted on what his best price is.

FDA, I never received a phone call or an email from you or anyone else regarding this. Would you mind letting me know via PM the phone number and/or email address in which you used to contact me? I would be VERY curious if a detailed search for your info would bring any results..........and see if it is a WI area code.

[Jim Schumacher]

Lets start with the reason in which we as a company made the choice to introduce our own line of automated drawoff systems. Please understand the points I am about to state are going to be direct criticism of the Marcland system, the Marcland sales structure, and other important amenities of the Marcland business. More importantly, please understand I would never have stated these points had Smoky Lake Maple Products LLC not been so closely examined for our new products and if I personally had not had my very business ethics questioned. Most importantly it must be known that I nor any of my staff have personal quarrel with the team at Marcland. The following list points out some but perhaps not all of the deficiencies we observed with Marcland during our short tenure as a dealer for them. It must be remembered that Smoky Lake Maple Products intends to maintain their reputation as a fabricator of maple equipment of only exceptional quality and value. All products we sell along with our evaporators and pan sets are expected to be of premium quality.

1) One of the first things we noticed upon receiving our first inventory of Marcland units was they were wrapped in Walmart plastic bags.

2) We noted almost immediately that the various cutouts through the plastic body of the main unit were made very poorly with an uncontrolled rotary tool such as a dremal. Please see the attached picture.

3) We noticed almost as quickly that the markings to indicate "valve" and "alarm" were made freehand with red and black Sharpie marker. See attached picture

4) The main body is simply a junction box available at any hardware store. This isn't so offensive, but the flat smooth Marcland logo is literally adhered right over the raised letters "Carlon", the manufacturer of the electrical junction box.

5) The wires of the probe are very thin and the protection over them insufficient.

6) The valves have the same cumbersome, homemade appearance as the main unit.

7) The valve relies on gravity holding a plunger down, often allowing syrup to drip. This is not only a personal observation of many units but a common complaint made by most users.

8) The valve opens and closes very fast, promoting surging, yes even when a throttle valve is employed. Also a personal observation and a common complain, especially among users feeding the evaporator with RO concentrated sap.

9) On two accounts, both involving customers who are longtime members here on Mapletrader, the probe wires had a "finicky" property near the controller. While in operation one could simply touch the wires of the probe and the displayed temperature would jump +/- 5°. When one of my customers called Bob from Marcland he was told to send the probe in... this was mid season.

10) A frequent complaint was the lack of detailed instructions furnished with the unit. (More on this later)

11) Bob from Marcland showed a complete lack of confidence in his barometric pressure compensation unit, asking Smoky Lake Maple Products and me personally to talk customers out of this option whenever possible as "most end up disabling/bipassing the barometric compensation feature".

12) As a dealer it was very hard to structure pricing to allow profit when Marcland often offered consumers, especially at shows, the same price as our cost. This is a negative fact shared by many other dealers as well. We faced the possibility of appearing as "gougers" when Marcland would offer a customer prices lower then we possibly could.

Upon not-so-close observation of our three available models you will see why Smoky Lake Maple Products is offended to be accused of "copying" as earlier stated. The concept of automatic draw is very simple and quit old, not invented by Marcland. We offer three units, all similar in concept but with different features from from our "Simplicity" offered at $490 to the "Great Lakes Guardian" an evaporator control system offered at $1100.

*ALL of our units have a strong attractive solid aluminum body, all features are permanently marked with anodized print.

*ALL of our units come with a heavy capacitor, Full Port, SOLID STAINLESS STEEL, electronic ball valve that will open and close softly but completely EVERY TIME. You can even choose from 3/4", 1.", 1.25", or 1.5". All full port, all in stock.

*ALL of our units have audible alarms built in, even the "Simplicity".

*ALL have an adjustable differential between set point and alarm point, you can even set it so the alarm will sound before the valve opens if you choose to.

*All come with an excellent stainless steel probe with a very heavy rubberized flexible jacket

*We take accuracy to the next level too. Every single Autodraw main unit will have a serial number which directly corresponds to a serial number on the probe sent with this unit. This is because Smoky Lake Maple Products takes the extra effort and time to calibrate each probe to it's parent controller. Each probe can send a signal to the display of up to +/- 1.3° Fahrenheit from actual. Not just our probes, ALL probes have this characteristic. So, we use a micro-sensitive, extremely accurate control environment of ethylene glycol (No the probe never actually touches the substance) to calibrate each probe to the parent unit. In the even where you might need a replacement probe we will use the serial number from your parent unit to furnish the correct offset to program into the controller. OR you can forget this step and settle for accuracy similar to the marcland models. This extra step we take might seem excessive, but it is worth it to me.

*Every unit come complete with DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS, ORIGINAL AND SPECIFIC TO OUR EXCELLENT SYSTEMS.

I've also attached a picture of the childish ad from Marcland in the last maple news. Instructions for our units have never been available to Marcland and had to be sent to our first several buyers due to their later completion date. For anyone to say the instruction are the same or even close to the same can be perceived as nothing short of a lie as nobody from the marcland organization had ever seen them. Additionally, the PID we use operates and navigates completely differently then any competing unit, so how could it be the same? As mentioned before, for marcland to say say that our products are "exact", especially in craftsmanship and quality is awfully presumptuous for himself and offensive for us and our great product. To help clarify further I've attached the instruction manual for our "Crescendo" model.

We are going to continue building auto-draw units for as long as I can see. We are working on a modulating unit now that has a color LCD touchscreen. I still see a LOT of potential for improvement in this product line, and am proud to be part of it.

http://www.smokylakemaple.com/auto-draw-off/

We are not in a position to bargain on our prices. As it is we can't keep them on the shelves. We increased production and will have a very healthy inventory of each model within a couple of weeks. We make very high quality auto draw systems, frankly in a class of their own, and put a very fair price on them. Currently we don't have any room to adjust our price, but as production increases I will extend the best possible price to you the consumer. Research and development took all summer and fall for me. Prototypes are expensive. This was a great investment for our small company.

Perhaps what you should be asking yourself is; how Marcland, now that there is competition, all of a sudden is able to lower the price several hundred dollars on each unit???



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[Daryl]

For those people who think that I copied the age old design of the 5" filter press, here is the truthful answer to that. The 5" hand filter press was manufactured by BLB Maple in Guys Mills, Pa until the early 2000's. BLB is my brother-in-law. At that time he closed his shop and no one carried on the building of the press. With the permission and approval from Bruce, I started to build the 5" hand filter press. I have since made several modifications to the press.
If you are interested in a press, contact me by a PM or e-mail thru this site.

[FDA]

FDA, I never received a phone call or an email from you or anyone else regarding this. Would you mind letting me know via PM the phone number and/or email address in which you used to contact me? I would be VERY curious if a detailed search for your info would bring any results..........and see if it is a WI area code. Pm sent to you, thanks for the advice I will be purchasing a Marcland in the future.

[SapZilla]

I don't know what to say anymore.

[tuckermtn]

saekeaton64 - nice work. keep us posted. Always nice to see someone building a better mousetrap...

[saekeaton64]

I have had my valve running in test mode for the last 3 days straight, so far everything looks great.
The barometric sensor is adjusting the temp as needs, and adjusting the draw temp by turning a knob really beats punching a bunch of buttons.
I have found that with a few more lines of code and a few extra components I will be able to add a stack temp feature to my current design. I do feel that a larger screen is in the works, but would be interested in any other features that people would like to see incorporated.

[Dennis H.]

I saw that Parallax has a really nice 3" color touch screen, now that would make a sweet setup. It would be very hi-tech looking!

So can I ask what made you choose the Arduino over another microcontroller, like the Parallax Stamp?

This is really getting my brain working on several things that I could use these microcontrollers for.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what kind Temp probe are you using?

[regor0]

I LOVE capitalism! Thanks Jim for your post.

[Sugarmaker]

Maple folks,
Very interesting thread.
Competition in most areas can help you improve your products. I worked in industry (not maple) helping our company build things for 40 years, I saw waves of competition come and go. Our quality was good but we saw improved quality products from our competition too. We had price competition from countries with low cost of overhead. We saw the cost of components continue to rise. We had to adjust to each of these factors plus at the same time look to the future to design and build next generation products that helped customers. This diversification and continued improvement allowed our company to continue to grow. I now step down off the soap box:)

The current maple industry is ready for products and accessories to make it easier for producers to make quality maple syrup. Price and features, delivery and service will always be a issue that the buyer/ user will face. Several brands to choose from is not a bad thing. A lot of time and effort has gone into these products and it shows!
I applaud all the folks building and marketing maple equipment. Not all of us have the skills to build things. Looks like these types of products drawoffs, and filter presses will continue to improve and evolve as technology advances.
Remember one thing, keep listening to your customer!
Just my 2 cents. Hopefully I have not ruffled too many feathers:)
Regards,
Chris

[saekeaton64]

The main reason I chose the Arduino is that a few of the guys I work with have used them on various small projects and it really helps to have a few extra heads to bounce ideas and problems off of.
After Jim had mentioned that his company was working to incorporate a touchscreen into their design it got me thinking, really like the idea of the touchscreen but am concerned with its performance in our environment; sticky syrup, water from the steam, and dirt from firewood. I know trying to use my iPhone in these conditions can be a real pain at times.
The temp probe I am using is kind of a secret, doing a google search will provide you with a good list of temperature sensors to be used with the Arduino.
Thanks,

[Dennis H.]

That helps when you have friends that can help you work thru and issue.
I understand about the temp probe, sometimes you got to keep it a secret for now.

One way to use a touchscreen in the conditions that we work is to have a little plexiglass cover that flips up when you need to make any changes.

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

I have also been trying to make my own auto drawoff with an arduino. My problem is with the temp probe because the output does not give a linear deviation as the temperature rises. How does one compensate for this very apparent curve. I tried using a linear equation y=mx+b which would only work around the calibrated temperature. Any help is appreciated. Thank you

[saekeaton64]

A lot depends on the type of temp sensor you are using.
The pt100 needs extra components to work correctly, and this requires some crazy coding to make thinks make sense.
Analog sensors are pretty straight forward, but lack accuracy.
Thermocouples also need extra components, accuracy can vary.
Digital sensors are pretty straight forward as well, good accuracy, but have a limited temp range.

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

Am I better off using an analog temp probe. such as a platinum rtd in a voltage divider to an analog input pin? Or some sort of digital one you speak of. And would there be an arduino library for this or something?

[Stevenick]

We use these controller all the time for bottling warming honey.
Has anyone used Inkbird Itc-308 Digital Temperature Controller Outlet Thermostat, 2-stage, 1100w, w/ Sensor
by Inkbirdinkbird
With a 110v stainless steel solonoid valve?