storage tank-feed tank

[the old guy]

I HAVE BEEN READING YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT FEED TANKS, STORAGE TANKS AND GATHERING TANKS. IS THERE A REASON WHY YOU CAN'T USE YOUR STORAGE FOR A FEED TANK. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE LESS YOU HAVE TO CLEAN THE BETTER OFF YOU ARE.

THE OLD GUY

[royalmaple]

The reason I wouldn't would be weight and logistics. It is much easier to have a bulk tank outside the sugarhouse or under some lean-to cover, and pump into a smaller overhead feedtank to gravity feed the evaporator. imagine a 50 or 100 gallon tank overhead, vs a 500-1000 gallon tank. Not only the weight but the size of the darn thing.

But this is all relative and if you only boil 50 gallons a night, and that is all you collect, well no need for extra tanks outside.

Plus I think you'll find the cooler you keep the sap until you are ready to boil the better off you'll be. So having the sap outside in a relatively colder environment will help you, and just pumping the sap you'll need in the feedtank. You can have a float or switch control a level of sap in your feedtank, so you can kind of forget about it, kinda anyway.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I had a 320 gallon tank and did this for 2 years without any problem. I picked up a 600+ gallon last year before season and now use it for storage. I would use both if I needed the extra capacity. :)

[HanginAround]

I think all or almost all of the medium sized or smaller sugarmakers I know have their main storage tank set somewhere higher than their evaporators, so usually only one tank. Most sugarcamps I know of are on a hillside, so that dumping into this tank from pipeline or gathering tank is possible. Logistics of pipelines, vaccum setup, grade and pumping dictate whether another tank is required. Like royal says, sometimes it's just easier to have a large tank on the ground and a smaller tank to feed from. Larger sugarmakers with ROs would have a single tank for storing concentrate and feeding the evapotator, but would have one or several tanks elsewhere for storage of sap.

In my uncle's smaller sugarcamp, he has one about 800 gal tank for storage and gravity feed, at his larger sugarcamp, he has 3- 1000 gal tanks in his vacuum/sap house for storage, sap gets pumped to another 1000 gal tank in the woodroom of the sugarcamp, and ROed into another 1000 gal tank inside the camp that feeds the evaporator.

Storage/feed tank on small sugarcamp... he can dump from the gathering tank on the tactor into it:
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/peteb/maple/HPIM0523.JPG

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/peteb/maple/HPIM0495.JPG

In the big sugarcamp... concentrate storage in the camp (up on the left):
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/peteb/maple/HPIM0487.JPG
Sap storage in the wood room:
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/peteb/maple/HPIM0466.JPG
And 3 tanks in the sap house:
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/peteb/maple/HPIM0474.JPG

[Hal]

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE LESS YOU HAVE TO CLEAN THE BETTER OFF YOU ARE.

THE OLD GUY

Not completely true. When my dad got the 50 barrel stainless sap tank, and the three old rusty leaking galvanized tanks went down the road, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. But it meant that I was desperate to get that tank empty every day in order to get it clean, we were tapping about 1800 on buckets then, and often didn't get started boiling early in the day. That meant shutting down with sap still in the tank, then either starting in the morning without rinsing it, or pumping sap back out into the gathering tank, rinsing the storage tank, then dumping yesterday's sap back into it. When we started running tubing right into the storage tank it was even worse. During a good run there would sometimes be several days when the tank was never completly emptied. In cold weather you can get away with this, but after things warm up and you are trying to hold your grade up as long as possible, every little bit helps, or in this case hinders. Last year I finally got a hood and pre-heater, which was high enough so that I was forced to put in a feed tank. What a difference, I can empy the main storage, divert the pipeline for a few minutes and wash the main tank with HOT water. That means that I start every day with a clean storage tank, and if there is any left over sap, it is in the feed tank and it can't inoculate the new sap with whatever has started growing in it. When the feed tank empties the first time, I can ease off the fire for a few minutes, splash some hot water through it and off I go again. I am not sure whether it is the new setup or just the supply of hot water from the pre-heater, but all the cleaning and maintenance around the sugarhouse seem easier to me now.

[HanginAround]

I know for everyone things are different, and small operators that work full time and may have to store sap for several days in mild temps, cleaning becomes important, but really, I don't think I know anyone that cleans sap tanks any more than once or a couple times a season. I think if you're only storing for 8-24 hr at a time and it isn't tooo warm, you don't even really have to worry about it too much. As far as grade goes, almost all the syrup I see is light to medium... almost no one makes anything darker than that, and the prices for those grades are about the same, so doesn't matter much. Of course, your factors will vary.

[Hal]

Your weather may be a little different, and as I said, and you agreed, in cold weather it doesn't make a lot of difference. But, we have been getting high fifties and even seventies during the season in the last few years, and that is a whole different ball game. Furthermore, I am not talking about a complete and thorough cleaning, but rather a few pails of hot water thrown in and brushed all over then rinsed out with another few. At the end of the season a few minutes washing and rinsing each day to try to hold up the grade, if it makes the difference between Vermont B and commercial, is worth it to me. If I could sell all my production at retail this would not make as much difference. I do admit that the price for lower grades has come up in the past few years, but five, ten, or twenty-five cents a pound adds up after awhile.

Also, my operation is open to the public, I get a fair number of visitors, and they don't seem to be impressed by a collection of crud and scum sitting in the tank.

[HanginAround]

You are right on all points, and I wasn't disputing you, just offering a different perspective.

:D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I picked up a 625 gallon milk tank for storage and it sits right bedside my feed tank as you can see on the pictures on my website link below. I love having the milk tank much better for storage as it is insulated and I can throw a couple buckets of frozen sap in it each day and it keeps it cold and it helps with not intermixing sap too. A milk tank is a lot cheaper than the tanks the evaporator companies have and it is insulated and in most cases comes with really nice lids/covers. I got mine for $ 400 which was a steal, but you can normally get them for $ .75 to $ 1.00 per gallon. :D

[HanginAround]

Yes, milk tanks are awesome if you can find them. The one in the pic at the top is a milk tank, but not insulated, still very nice heavy tank though.

[ibby458]

I guess it depends a lot on your particular situation, but I find cleaning every tank, every day to be a big help in holding grade. I hose out with hot water, run a brush around it, rinse off and then swab with a mop saturated with peroxide. (I know some people don't think it does any good, but it's cheap, quick and I think it's worthwhile)

I've been known to wash (Rinse, wipe, rinse, right at the tree.) buckets mid season if we get a prolonged warm spell. I drain and clean the evaporator after every 3rd boil or so. (I filter what I drain out and store it in lidded buckets, and put it back in when I start up again.)

I also spray my bits, spouts, and tap holes with peroxide/water mix. It's probably a coincidence, but I also averaged about twice as much syrup/tap as most other local producers last year.

THat's when I'm making grade A syrup. Once it gets to B or C, all the fussiness stops, and I just gather, filter, boil, and repeat until the season's over.

[the old guy]

GREAT INPUT! I THINK WE WILL TRY FOR 180 TAPS THIS YEAR. WE WILL FILTER INTO THE STORAGE TANK AND USE THE SAME TO FEED THE EVAPORATOR. THE PEAK SAP PRODUCTION LAST YEAR WAS FEB 18 FOR US AND WE COLLECTED 240 GALLONS THAT DAY. WE HAD SOME OTHER DAYS OF OVER 200 GALLONS.

WE KIND OF RAN INTO A SNAFU THOUGH. THE THREADS ON THE MILK TANK CONNECTION ARE NOT NPT. I TOOK THE SHUT OFF VALVE BACK TO THE DAIRY SUPPLY DEALER TO FIND OUT JUST WHAT KIND OF FITTING I NEED TO RUN THE LINE TO THE EVAPORATOR BUT HE IS CURRENTLY VACATIONING IN MISSOURI. SO I GUESS WE WILL JUST WAIT TILL HE RETURNS??? UNLESS SOMEONE HAS AN IDEA HOW TO RUN THE LINE FROM THE TANK TO THE EVAPORATOR.

THE OLD GUY

[royalmaple]

Old guy, you'll have to weld on a npt fitting for the size you need. As far as I know everyone does that when they do the milk to maple conversion.

[the old guy]

Matt

I think you are right. A commercial nipple to NPT is about $187. I think I'll weld it. Thanks for your help!

the old guy

[maplehound]

Old guy.
Find a machinest to drill and thread the blank stopper that fits the milk tank threads. I have done that and I have allso had the blank stoopers drilled and a 1" nipple welded on. The problem I have run into is that the weld on the nipple ussually crack. The I repair them with JB weld. Both work great though.

[the old guy]

I HAVE BEEN MESSING WITH THIS COMPUTER ALL EVENING TRYING TO ADD PHOTOS TO MY POSTS. I CAN LOAD THE ALBUM TO YAHOO BUT I DON'T GET TO THIS SITE. I NEED HELP.

THE OLD GUY

HTTP://PHOTOS.YAHOO.COM/leooxley

[HanginAround]

The problem with the link above is that there is a colon missing after http.

I went to your site and there are no public pictures, so either you have to make them public or "share" them, or your pics didn't make it through the upload process.

After you get your pics uploades, copy the link to any pic, come back here and in the message edit screen, press the Img button, paste the link, then press the edit button again.

It will look something like this:

http:/ /photos. yahoo.com/leooxley/album1/pic003.jpg

I'll help you all I can.

[the old guy]

HEY, HANGING AROUND

I THINK I GOT THE PICTURE THING! NOW I NEED TO GET MY CAMERA GOING. I AM GETTING ALL THE PIECES TOGETHER FOR SUGARING SEASON. I JUST RECEIVED THE ORDER FROM BASCOM CONTAINING THE CERAMIC PAN GASKET, SPILES, DEFOAMER, ...ETC. THE BULK TANK VALVE IS BEING FIXED BY MY FRIEND WHO IS A COMMERCIAL WELDER.
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!

THE OLD GUY

[HanginAround]

Your link and album work fine... but I could find no easy way to get a pic into the forum here. Yahoo seems to do things in a complicated way, perhaps so people don't copy/link to other people's photo. I'm not sure if you have different options when you are signed is as the owner or not.

Nice pics, good to put a face to a name.

[maple flats]

For my milk tank I just took the valve to a milk equipment dealer and got a plastic adapter used to hook up a tank washer (cost about $20) and to this I used heavy guage milk tubing about 3/4" ID and clamped it to the fitting adapter and to 3/4" copper tubing as a copuling, works great.