Cost difference between homemade and purchased RO for the small producer

[Starting Small]

My brother is much better with design and hands on projects than I am. He wants to build an RO this winter and to me it seems like a big project. We will have around 150-200 taps. My brother was saying he could make a 500 gallon per day RO. I am curious if it would be worth just buying one, the only problem is that I cannot seem to find a price on one that small. Do you guys know how much a small one would cost? Would a homemade RO make 200 taps on vac manageable for a 2X4 drop flue? Thanks,
-Dave

[BreezyHill]

You bet your... it will. Lets get Jas to tell you about his. I saw it and liked it. Nice and simple not a bunch of little tubes all over the place and built in a way that it can be worked on if needed. Not portable but that could change easily if he so desires.
There are several places to check of vessels and membranes on line. I will try to find you a link to a place that has been sending me a boat load of emails of suppliers to contact for vessels. I am looking at an 8" for my Memtek. It has a 5hp piston pump and a 2hp feeder pump with recirculation system. My dad always ran it to 12-15%. I would look at using a single 4 x 40 membrane and just recirculation the concentrate back to the tank for the amount you are talking. You would be able to fire up the evaporator and keep concentrating as you boil. I will just be firing the evap on regular and then adding concentrate to the evap tank from the RO.
Two membranes will be faster and not that much more $$$.
There are a lot of guys that have built their own. Some with bells, some with whistles, I am old school so bells and whistles ...in case I fall asleep when boiling. Did that once last season. Got alittle warm in front of the evap at 1 am. Good time to shut her down.

[PerryFamily]

Save yourself the time and buy the one Thad has for sale on BY evangelist. Looks super simple and has been proven , I believe they ran it last year on 800 taps I believe. Or contact him for a component list. It would take the guess work out of it.

[bowhunter]

I built one this spring that will handle 22 gallons per hour and should do about 75% water removal. I have not tested it yet so we'll see how it performs. Small units are less expensive to build than buy. Mine was pretty expensive to build, but I used all new parts. I spent about $950. The smallest units you can buy are at least twice that.

[Starting Small]

Save yourself the time and buy the one Thad has for sale on BY evangelist. Looks super simple and has been proven , I believe they ran it last year on 800 taps I believe. Or contact him for a component list. It would take the guess work out of it.
I am not familiar with this site and cannot find it on a search. Is there a link you could provide? Thanks,
-Dave

[Starting Small]

My brother just said that the 500 gallon per day RO that he is planning on building will cost him about $300. Does this seem right to you guys or is he estimating way too low? I am just trying to get a grip on if it is doable for a 500 gpd RO. Thanks,
-Dave

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

good luck with that. mine cost me $1000.00. price out a pump, electric motor a stainless steel vessel and a membrane, these alone were $560.00

[PerryFamily]

Yea. Sorry about that. Frickin auto correct. Its for sale on VT craigslist. Looks like a pretty simple unit.

[Starting Small]

good luck with that. mine cost me $1000.00. price out a pump, electric motor a stainless steel vessel and a membrane, these alone were $560.00

That is what I was thinking to, how many gph or gpd does your unit handle for the $1,000?

Perryfamily...I was looking at all these religious websites wondering why he would post it on an evangelical website! HahahA! :lol:

[red maples]

Price wise to buy new..... prices vary but for the hobby say CDL 100gph $5000. and they go up from there. I think H20 inovations 600 gph right around $12,000 I think anyway. Don't know how he's gonna do that for $300 when the membranes them selves run a pretty penny!!! let alone the stainless containers. you can't just use a PVC if that's what he's thinking it quite a lot of pressure what 200+ lbs of pressure running through those depending on how hard your running it. and food grade good quality 1-2 HP pumps hmmm $$$$ pluss high pressure hoses and gauges etc. I am no expert but..... Are they over priced YES YES YES... but you get to do a lot of other things besides splitting wood all summer and spending 10 hrs a day boiling .... been there done that going RO this year... Store bought. But hey if he can source all the stuff for cheap without cutting corners on food grade items (sorry hot button for me please please save any comments on that one) then more power to him and good luck.

[Starting Small]

I appreciate everyone's help. I came across this on ebay, would something like this work for maple? Since we only have 200 taps or so a 200 gpd RO might be a good enough size. What do you guys think? The price seems right unless I am missing something, which is definitely a possibility! Thanks!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Commercial-RO-system-200GPD-Reverse-Osmosis-/231075829988?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cd3158e4#ht_298wt_1255

[GeneralStark]

I appreciate everyone's help. I came across this on ebay, would something like this work for maple? Since we only have 200 taps or so a 200 gpd RO might be a good enough size. What do you guys think? The price seems right unless I am missing something, which is definitely a possibility! Thanks!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Commercial-RO-system-200GPD-Reverse-Osmosis-/231075829988?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cd3158e4#ht_298wt_1255

In short, no a residential ro for water purification will not work for maple. Sure, the price is right, but it won't cut it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

200 taps you will want a single 4 inch post. The pump you buy will depend on possible expansion or not. The materials are simple to come by, but takes a little time to put it all together.

[BreezyHill]

Here is a pump SS not brass...no lead issues. Procon pumps are very durable and easily rebuilt. If looking to expand later would suggest one of the 4 or 5 series pumps as they have larger ports and more GPM. The GPM rating is in the center of the decoder line of the pump.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROCON-PUMP-KIT-WITH-MOTOR-STAINLESS-PROCON-PUMP-DUAL-VOLTAGE-MOTOR-/170916259345?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cb672611

[Starting Small]

Here is a pump SS not brass...no lead issues. Procon pumps are very durable and easily rebuilt. If looking to expand later would suggest one of the 4 or 5 series pumps as they have larger ports and more GPM. The GPM rating is in the center of the decoder line of the pump.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROCON-PUMP-KIT-WITH-MOTOR-STAINLESS-PROCON-PUMP-DUAL-VOLTAGE-MOTOR-/170916259345?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cb672611

Thanks Ben...The more I learn the happier I am my brother volunteered to do the building for us!
-Dave

[Thad Blaisdell]

Breezy, that pump, or motor is not large enough. It only does 100gpm, you need it to do more.

http://www.wateranywhere.com/product_info.php?cPath=347_527&products_id=10591

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

That is what I was thinking to, how many gph or gpd does your unit handle for the $1,000?

Perryfamily...I was looking at all these religious websites wondering why he would post it on an evangelical website! HahahA! :lol:

its a 4 inch membrane and i can squeeze 70 gph thru it

[bowhunter]

Ditto. The home units have to be seriously derated because of sugar concentration (osmotic pressure), cold sap temperatures and fouling of the membrane. RO membranes don't work very well as water approaches the freezing point. You probably need a membrane capable of 600 GPD of permeate on water. Membranes are sized based on permeate flow. You need to match the size of the pump with the diameter of the membrane so that you have adequate flow across the membrane. This won't be a big problem early on but undersizing the pump will definitely increase membrane cleaning frequency.

[jcyphert]

.

http://www.wateranywhere.com/product_info.php?cPath=347_527&products_id=10591

Is the price correct on that? it compare to the procon i just bought for $180

[Thad Blaisdell]

For that one it is just the pump..... motor would be the difference.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Is the price correct on that? it compare to the procon i just bought for $180
I bought a p1000 last year after I blew up my first one it cost 135, 230psi/316gph, I pushed 260psi through 2 4" membranes. I have about 1400 into mine, but adding a 3rd tower as I speak and upgrading the pump to 760gph/260 psi

http://www.fluidotech.it/Contents/Documents/Data%20sheet%20new%20logo/Direct%20drive%20rotary%20vane%20pumps%20PO%204000 .pdf

[jcyphert]

Gezz. I have $160 in a 1hp ge motor and $180 in a series 4 procon. I wish I would have heard of "fluid-o-tech" 10 days ago.

here is the chepest I could find procon if anyone wants to go that route. http://www.zorotools.com/g/00101211/k-G2491596/

[jcyphert]

I pushed 260psi through 2 4" membranes.

What size motor does fluid o tech recommend for that size pump to preform at that level?

[Wanabe1972]

Hi guys I watched an RO run at work this weekend and it looks like a pretty simmple machine. It was making 8 gallons of clean water and 3.5 wasted per minute. Here's my stupid question for sap do you keep the waste water for boiling? It didn't seem to me you would keep the purified water.

[jcyphert]

do you keep the waste water for boiling?

You got it! concentrate = high sugar content (waste water in salt water ro)
permeate = pure clean water.
You would keep some permeate to clean (rinse/backwash) your membranes and for a lot of us, use the permeate for water in the sugar house for cleaning and other needs.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

you will need all of the permeate for cleaning the membrane and other clean up chores in the sugarhouse. I DO NOT throw any away

[schellmaple]

Does anybody have any drawing on their homemade RO's and where do you find to purchace the membranes and the canisters at?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

What size motor does fluid o tech recommend for that size pump to preform at that level?
Call talk to Daryl, he is their tech.
Motor and pump was $535 approx, Im sure there are some money on that for shipping,. 1HP motor and P1000 Pump. I read some place you could gravity feed it so that what I tried and the reason it blew up. I now have a shallow well gould pump feeding it.
Im not sure what I will need for the 4000 pump Im looking to run

[jcyphert]

@schellmaple -
Joe at atlanticro.com is where I just got my xle-4040's and vessels from. Best prices and very knowledgeable on RO stuff.

[sapman]

Call talk to Daryl, he is their tech.
Motor and pump was $535 approx, Im sure there are some money on that for shipping,. 1HP motor and P1000 Pump. I read some place you could gravity feed it so that what I tried and the reason it blew up. I now have a shallow well gould pump feeding it.
Im not sure what I will need for the 4000 pump Im looking to run

When you say a shallow well pump, that sounds like a jet pump. Are you using a pump with jet/veturi/guidevane? My ro, and all I'm sure, use centrifugal pumps (similar, obviously minus the jet). Hardly any pressure output/lift, but much higher flow. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Wanabe1972]

I may have stepped in it today. I thought about trying to build an RO in the future as I plan on expanding my operation and told my boss how I drooled over the new 600 gph unit we just installed. He asked why I was interested and I told him for maple syrup. He said come with me and showed me this old unit hiding in the corner but was even sure what it was. I flipped it over where I could see and it was a small single small membrane RO it has a smell membrane maybe 2.5 x 20 and it has prefilters and a UV lamp inline. I know this is probably too small now but I may be able to make it bigger cause its all there. I did not see the size of the pump but did see it was a 220 single ph on 1 hp on the pressure pump.It also has a feed pump and a control panel with idiot lights for hi and low pressure shut off and it had backflo and bypass. He is going to check in the morning but was pretty sure this was for a process we don't do any more and probably headed for the dumpster. If all goes well it will be in the back of my truck.

[BreezyHill]

Well sounds like the price is going to be right. Yes you could increase the size of the vessels and step up the pump if it is too small. May need to replumb if the piping is to small. Great start thou. Good Job!

[schellmaple]

@schellmaple -
Joe at atlanticro.com is where I just got my xle-4040's and vessels from. Best prices and very knowledgeable on RO stuff.

I want to thank you for the infomation. Do you know aprox. what you had in your setup? I have 150 - 180 taps on vacuum now and maybe expanding to aprox 400 - 500 in the future. How many taps are you runing on your RO system?

[jcyphert]

I try not to think about it but I think I'm at about $1600. With about the same specs as you see here. http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?20927-Building-RO.-Let-me-know-if-I-m-missing-something. (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?20927-Building-RO.-Let-me-know-if-I-m-missing-something)

I use a bunch of stainless steel valves and fittings- about $370 worth.

We will have about 500 taps this year and probably process another 200 for a friend. We might be on the small side with the RO but any reduction in water is better than what we have now!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i ran any where from 400 to 525 on a sap sucker last season i think it worked, couldnt have done that with out the ro

[PerryFamily]

I ran 1100 on gravity with a 2x6 and a 600 gph ro and it was very manageable.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I ran 1100 on gravity with a 2x6 and a 600 gph ro and it was very manageable.
Think I was down by you Perry last week. Was doing some work at Kurn Hattlin school , just saying