wet line dry line size

[huskyxp]

I am getting ready to set up a new thousand plus tap woods. The closest tap to the road, where the tank will be, is 1400 feet away. I already have the wire installed at 2% slope from the tank to the bush. My question is how big do my wet line and dry line need to be to get the most vacuum to the taps? and also how big of a pump do I need? I was thinking 1 1/4 wet, 1 1/2 dry but I have been told that 1 wet, 1 1/4 dry is big enough. Also the mains coming into the wet dry line are going to be over 1000 feet long (also around 2%) and there will probably not be more than 250 taps per main line. Should I make the first 500 feet 1 inch and the rest 3/4 or just make it all 3/4? I am only going to be able to afford to get the tubing installed this year and add the vacuum next year. I don't think I am missing any information to answer my question, just let me know if I am. Thanks
Kurt

[Thad Blaisdell]

Personally I would do the 1.5 dry line with 1 inch wet. then reduce down to the 1.25 roughly once you start into the mains. Keeping the 1 inch wet throughout. I would also use 1 inch mains the whole way.

[unc23win]

Go with what Thad said he is right on, 1" mains everywhere will be worth it in the long run. The price difference now won't matter when the sap is gushing in. If you haven't got the line yet save $ and go with Black pipe surprised Thad didn't say that. Slipping Thad? just kidding Thad. For 1000 taps you want at least a 15-20 CFM pump rule of thumb is 100 taps per CFM then increase it by at least 50% some people double it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Black pipe all the way.... don't waste the money. And I would double it.... 50 taps per cfm

[huskyxp]

Is the 1 inch wet line going to be big enough for 1000 taps the first year when I don't have vacuum hooked to it?

[Thad Blaisdell]

Just break it down like this, 1000 taps on a normal day will give you 1000 gallons over a 10 hour period, roughly 100 gph. Think about that for a minute, in a 1 inch pipe. So that is less than 2 gpm. I think a 1 inch pipe can take that and much much more. Keep the wet as small as possible, and oversize the dry line. This will keep your sap cooler and provide excellent vacuum transfer.

Next, are you sure you cant afford vacuum? Real vacuum on this system with pump and releaser, roughly 4500-5000. Added syrup production is about the same. Would all but pay for itself first year. Or buy releaser and dairy pump and make more syrup and then a real vacuum.

Good luck

[BreezyHill]

Especially not with vacuum, not with wet and dry either.
Speed the extra to use the colored wet lines. 1.5" colored vs black is only $.07/foot. That is $98 on 1400feet. That's the profit from a gallon in 250 ml glass. your first season. The amount of sap you will save over ten years that doesn't need to be dumped due to the higher temp of black is big.
I have a bush that has to run 2% grade for 2100' that bush had its own tank until we went to orange tubing. It was always going bad on warm days. That long of a run, in partly sunny exposer is terrible.
Don't bother with 3/4" either it is not cost effective to have the extra repair parts for the second lateral size and the vac transfer is limited over distance and limited by minimal slope.
Send me an email at bhffeed@msn.com and I will send you Steve Childs data on calculating tubing capacity and vacuum transfer.

I would suggest getting the vacuum first and what ever you can for tubing. The increase in production will keep you going. The lack of vacuum will greatly reduce your days of runs in marginal weather for a run. The use of a second hand pump will get you going. Then you can buy a new unit with additional funding and still be making syrup.

let me know if you need assistance with the sizing calculation sheet.

Ben

[unc23win]

huskyxp

Thad is steering you in the right direction for sure. 1" is big enough for sure for a Wet line and 1000' taps. Thad has a 10,000 tap operation in which he pulls very good levels of vacuum. Also he has read all of the studies he just didn't mention them.

Black Water pipe vrs Sap Tubing for main lines has been discussed many times and the same thing always pops up the bigger producers use Black they save money and put in more taps simple as that. The idea of the sap getting warm is moot point for them (not that it is very likely to occur). Personally I really like to run as long of runs as possible without any connections so I buy whatever I can get the longest spool of, I did buy 2000' rolls of 1" sap line on sale last spring it was actually cheaper than black pipe by like .10 a foot.

[BreezyHill]

Well maybe we can get Steve Childs to entertain use a bit. Since his data sheets and calculation guide lines from his research at Cornell University clearly list the carrying capacity of 1" mainline of 1400' at a 2% slope is only 463 taps, and most tubing suppliers list 500 as the capacity of 1" sized tubing.
Another important fact of the clear is most of us have a very hard time seeing the sap in a black mains. So there is no way to see if there is any pooling in the mains when they are at slopes of 2% and less. The ability to see is also nice when looking at the lines for minor leak issues from laterals at the junction of the saddle and mains.

So if you have a way of seeing the sap flow in a black mains please do share with everyone. Thanks Ben

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Is 1000 taps the maximum potential of this woods or will more be added in the future?
Neil

[unc23win]

Ben if the line is installed right you don't need to be able to see inside it just my thoughts. Are you sure 463 taps on 1" line is for wet and dry system? Sounds more like the numbers for wet line only to me. Most tubing suppliers 1. Like to sell more expensive tubing and 2. Are selling based on gravity numbers.

[huskyxp]

Is 1000 taps the maximum potential of this woods or will more be added in the future?
Neil
Neil
yes I think that is pretty close to what is there

[BreezyHill]

U23W, yup, rechecked it again for 1400' of 1" at 2% is 464...oops off by one. That is also figuring that there is atleast 15 cfm dedicated to that line at the 0 foot mark. Remember that after 800' the cfm transfer rates take a big hit, and it does not matter how big the pump is. After 800' 15 CFM or 100 CFM pumps transfer the same cfms thru the line due to the friction loses.
I hear you on the sales end but once you have used an infarred themo gun and done some check you will be shocked too.
I am one of those "prove it to me guys", and only bet on sure things and I will bet you on this. Color is the winner especially on long runs in the sun. We always mow the rose bushes and weeds to get more air flow past the mains to cool them and can save a couple degrees. Looks better too.
I come from a little different back ground than most. The little things can make a big difference. Dropping milks temp trior to the tank can save pennies / gallon. Now take two pennies per cow on a gallon for an 80 cow herd over a year with a 70#/cow daily average. Milk at 8# / gallon and the yearly savings is $5110...that's why farms will put in a $8000 heat exchanger.
Yes some dealers are just looking to make a buck. But most don't spend time helping guys for free either. Call me old fashioned or a dinosaur; but if I can help a person from making a mistake I will.
Just because the time was spent to "install it right" doesn't mean that it will stay pitched right forever. I personally feel that checking the flow of sap in my lines is part of maintance. If the line sags the width of the pipe or even less a pool will start. This pool limits vac transfer; to every tap past the pool. This in turn hurts production.
Personally I am looking to increase my production with every tool, that will be cost affective. Dumping sap was not cost affective for me. So I do everything I can to help others learn from the mistakes I have made in the past.
Do I run black...Yes. Am I adding a colored wet line over the brook for cooler sap, yes. I am also adding another dry line as I have frozen the first one sold over that darn brook. Yes it cost $$$, but it will repay the investment when I don't have to dump sap on a 60 degree day and by clearing more of the sap from the bush on every run before the bush freezes.
Crazy...some may think so; but I crunch number all the time to make milk, meat, eggs, etc for farmers, that's my job.
$20 on ebay and you can get a infared thermo gun. Check the temp of a drop line. Then check where that sap enters the main. then check where that lateral meets the mains. Then finally that mains at the releaser. Write all the temps down. Do this on a run in early season and then again every week til the end of season. When you see what I saw you will be putting in color just like me.

[maple flats]

I'm with the blue main/wet/dry crowd. I have many sections where slope is an issue. With the blue you will find issues faster.
I think the black vs blue is twofold.
The first issue is sun exposure. If you have a cold woods the black is likely the better choice, if you get better sun exposure the blue is best. The sun will raise the temperature faster than you think. It only takes a few degrees to cause micro organisims to grow faster, and that is what costs the most.
The second issue is being able to see sags easily. If you have no issue with sags and don't get a lot of sun on your lines, go black. Me, I only have 1 black line left, part of an older mainline with 2-3% slope and lots of shade and roadside. All other lines are blue.

[maple flats]

I'm with the blue main/wet/dry crowd. I have many sections where slope is an issue. With the blue you will find issues faster.
I think the black vs blue is twofold.
The first issue is sun exposure. If you have a cold woods the black is likely the better choice, if you get better sun exposure the blue is best. The sun will raise the temperature faster than you think. It only takes a few degrees to cause micro organisims to grow faster, and that is what costs the most.
The second issue is being able to see sags easily. If you have no issue with sags and don't get a lot of sun on your lines, go black. Me, I only have 1 black line left, part of an older mainline with 2-3% slope and lots of shade and roadside. All other lines are blue.