Flow meters

[stannard]

I'm thinking of installing flow meters to keep track of sap quantities from different areas, any suggestion on reasonably priced flow meters that don't freeze up.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I looked into this a year ago. I didn't find anything that would work or be accurate on individual mainlines, but they make fairly accurate devices that mount on pvc sch. 40 pipe. This year I am going to install one between my feed tanks and ro on my 2" feedline. Google flowmeters or Blue-White instruments.
Neil

[spud]

I'm thinking of installing flow meters to keep track of sap quantities from different areas, any suggestion on reasonably priced flow meters that don't freeze up.

Webb's sells flow meters for mainlines. The last time I check was last fall and they were about $300.00 or so. As far as freeze ups it will freeze up if left outside.

Spud

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Webb's sells flow meters for mainlines. The last time I check was last fall and they were about $300.00 or so. As far as freeze ups it will freeze up if left outside.

SpudAre they universal or are there different sizes for different size mainlines?
Neil

[spud]

They are different sizes for different size mainlines I think. You would have to call them to make sure because I don't want to steer you wrong.

Spud

[BreezyHill]

Check out farm tek they have a flow meter that I use in the mill for molasses. The first one last about 20000 gallons out of a 2" pump. The newest is on a 1.5" pump and is also working well. They range from $110 to $650 depending on size of lines smallest will do 1/4 g / minute and 2" will do 2 Gpm minimum. Never had a freeze isuue even at -28 F outside temps. And let me tell ya molasses is really thick at and thing below 40 F. It doubles its viscosity with ever 10 degree temp change. Looks like pudding at below 0. We run heated lines in the mill but at below zero it is hard to heat them that much.
www.FarmTek.com ...recordall water meters

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

any body have a link to flow meters?

[TunbridgeDave]

I got a couple flowmeters for my RO at Allforwater on Ebay. The cheapest I could find on the web. They would freeze unless you drain them though.

[DrTimPerkins]

Flow meters in a mainline outside = inaccurate at low flow and really bad idea if they freeze.

Flow meters typically have a fairly narrow range. They don't do well with a small trickle (it just doesn't register on them), and lots of maple flows are just small trickles. Bubbles or crap in the lines isn't particularly good for them either. The rotors can also sugar up and stop turning, which impedes the flow.

[GeneralStark]

I think you will have a hard time finding a flow meter that will just plug into a mainline in the woods and give an accurate reading. There is a style of flowmeter that is a box that fills with liquid and tips when full. The box is calibrated so every time it fills and tips it dumps a specific amount of liquid. A datalogger keeps track of the number of dips to determine flow. I have seen these used in a number of applications and studies. Not sure it would work in this application but it's an idea.

[BreezyHill]

GS, Those are electronic rain gauge units. Wont work in a vacuum system until after a releaser or it could be set in a releaser, but they are a very small amount of volume per dump. The ones I list will log a dripping faucet or poultry drip cup drinkers. One sweep of the hand is only 10 gallons and the micro spinner in the face is a blur at a 2 gallons/ minute. Should work in a 1" line. Town can trace a leaking faucet outside the residence on the electronic units.
Give them a call and ask the volumetric sensitivity of the meter.

[DrTimPerkins]

....ones I list will log a dripping faucet or poultry drip cup drinkers. One sweep of the hand is only 10 gallons and the micro spinner in the face is a blur at a 2 gallons/ minute. Should work in a 1" line.

These meters will work because water lines are plumbed so they are typically full of water during measurement. Flow meters need to be plumbed correctly to read accurately. You can't just stick it in line and think it'll work. Put a bend or elbow near the meter and it will be wrong. Typically you need a straight length of pipe 5X the diameter of the pipe upstream and a length 2X the diameter downstream to avoid turbulence. Run a mixture of air/water through it and you'll get a measurement, but it'll be wrong. Put it in freezing weather and it will be wrong (and plug your pipe). Put it in a line with crud in it and it will be wrong (a paddle-wheel type flow meter is less susceptible to failure in this case than an impeller-type meter). A 1" impeller type water meter has a typical minimum flow rate of around 1.2 gal/min (for a decent meter) and a maximum of 20 gal/min.....so you need to know what the minimum flow might be (probably zero) and the maximum is. Just because you have a 1" wet line doesn't mean that a 1" flow meter will be the best choice. Too low a minimum flow and you won't register anything. Too high a flow (especially with crud in the liquid) and you'll thrash the bearing in the impeller pretty quickly. A cheap meter will mean higher variation as well....so you might get +/- 5% accuracy.

Of course, if you don't care if your measurement is wrong, then go right ahead and do whatever you want.

The better solution is to either put some type of counter right on your releaser lever arm if it's a mechanical releaser OR put a flow meter on the pipe coming out of the pump (paying attention to the correct installation requirements) if it is an electric releaser. We do this all the time....very easy. Most releasers are very repeatable in terms of the volume they dump. What I don't understand is why equipment manufacturers don't just offer this as an upgrade option for $40-50.

[spud]

Doc,

What a great idea on some kind of a dumping counter. It seems like it would be simple to install and dead on.

Spud

[unc23win]

I am thinking about putting a counter on my releaser similar to the one on my square baler. I might have to have 2 as I have double vertical so 1 would trip one way and 1 would trip the opposite. I was also thinking about putting one on the float switch that operates the pump. Putting one on the pump would be easier. Either way its just a matter fo figuring out how many gallons the pump pumps each time or the releaser dumps each time. There is margin of error of course, but I think it would be nice to compare different portions of my operation.

[DrTimPerkins]

What a great idea on some kind of a dumping counter. It seems like it would be simple to install and dead on.

On our regular releasers we use a wireless magnetic door switch (to avoid having any wires in the way), with the magnet on one part of the releaser and the switch on the rocker arm. It sends a signal to a counter box that we can record and reset each day. We've calibrated the releasers so we know exactly how many gallons of sap there is with each dump. Relatively cheap and very simple -- nothing in the way, never fails, counts when barely flowing, counts when flowing at max rate the releaser can handle, doesn't impede flow.

If you didn't mind wires, you could use a really cheap magnetic contact switch (such as http://www.smarthome.com/77447BR/SECO-LARM-SM-205Q-BR-Enforcer-NC-Magnetic-Contacts-with-15-Inch-Leads-Brown/p.aspx for $2.90), a 9 volt battery, and an appropriate counter display (http://www.kep.com/catalog/ii/pages/counters.html).

[BreezyHill]

DR TIm,
No disrespect intended; but the one I use comes with two lengths of pipe that must be used to correlate the meter for accuracy, it also doesn't measure air bubbles as this occurs when pumping molasses when it is cold outside. Tiny bubbles will collect in high spots in the lines and at 45 elbows. After they have built up enough they come thru the lines. These new units are nothing like the old ones of even 5 years ago.
Agreed any freezing will be an issue but molasses doesn't freeze just thickens...and thickens.
First thing in the am it will take several minutes to get the molasses pumping. The pipe will just drip then a stream like a .5mm pencil lead and then 1/8" and then finally the pipe is running full bore. 1.25".
Accuracy is a little off. Over a 1500 gallon load we will usually be off by 10 gallons summer to 15 if it is really cold out during winter.
To keep the freezing issue at bay a good old fashioned heat tap around the unit and a foot either side should suffice.

I didn't think the question was asking for scientific accuracy...if so all bets are off, even the rain measures are only going to give you a SWAG(Scientific Wild *** Guess), due to the drops that are entering while dumping and when it doesn't fully dump, or sticks on dumping, etc. Fine print on my old electronic gauge was 10% accuracy. For ball park numbers or a WAG(Wild *** Guess)...better than a guess...right? :lol:

The other thing is to use a bulk tank with a meter stick. Or make your own measuring stick and have it calibrated by the milk companies in your state. If you have a hose and a milking pail that has a known volume you could do it yourself. Still only a SWAG unless level footing and all the state regs are meet. When I buy a bulk tank I get the measurement chart it had.

Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

I might have to have 2 as I have double vertical so 1 would trip one way and 1 would trip the opposite. I was also thinking about putting one on the float switch that operates the pump.

Pump switch would work, but the problem there is if it is running hard, a releaser might or might not dump during the time it was pumping out (depending on the size and number of releasers you have). No need to get two counters for the double-vertical, just double the number on the counter.

[DrTimPerkins]

DR TIm, No disrespect intended;

None taken. My point is that an inexpensive flow meter put in a sap mainline, especially if it is placed outside, will cause a lot of trouble, and will be very inaccurate, prone to multiple errors, and would likely cause more problems than it is worth. It comes down to using the appropriate device and method (and proper installation and operation) for the conditions required and the level of accuracy and precision desired.

Whether a result better than a guess is worth making depends upon what you want to do with it. if you are comparing something where you would expect a big difference, like vacuum vs gravity or high-vacuum vs low vacuum, then a 10% accuracy might be useful. If you're trying to compare two different spout designs, and expect to find a difference of less than 5%, then a measuring device with a 10% accuracy (remember that manufacturer specs are always when installed correctly and under optimal conditions) is no better than a WAG, so in my opinion, it is not worth trying to measure beyond eyeballing it.

[unc23win]

Pump switch would work, but the problem there is if it is running hard, a releaser might or might not dump during the time it was pumping out (depending on the size and number of releasers you have). No need to get two counters for the double-vertical, just double the number on the counter.

Yes you are correct if the releaser dumped before the pump was done it would be off some.

You might be right about doubling the number. I was thinking about hooking it to the mechanism that switches it over so it would count chambers seperate. I have Bernard 213 on which the top pivots to switch sides. I guess it might be possible to hook it to the flapper. I got a pitch counter at that 5 Below store I use to count taps it might work as well. Last year I timed the releaser a few times for fun.

Of course I will admit I am more interested in counting barrels :), but I have a few ideas for some research.

Thanks again Dr. Perkins.

[pdr]

I tried attaching a pedometer to the (Bernard) rocker arm. Very inexpensive, but it didn't work well enough.

[BreezyHill]

DR Tim, Wouldn't it be a issue putting a blockage in the line...flow meter? I cant see any way that the vacuum flow thru the line will not be affected by a meter like a water flow meter. So wouldn't the results be skewed?

[DrTimPerkins]

DR Tim, Wouldn't it be a issue putting a blockage in the line...flow meter? I cant see any way that the vacuum flow thru the line will not be affected by a meter like a water flow meter. So wouldn't the results be skewed?

It would depend greatly on the design of the flow meter. A meter that impedes flow (of either air or sap) to any significant degree would not be good. There are several types of flowmeter (ultrasonic, magnetic, etc.) that don't extend into or contact the stream of sap at all, so there is absolutely no blockage whatsoever.....however I don't think people here are willing to spend the kind of $ it takes to do that (many hundreds to thousands of $). As I believe you said, a tank and a yardstick are often good enough.

I guess to state it more clearly....I would not try to put a flow meter in a sap line (mainline or lateral line) and hope to get decent results UNLESS:

- the meter were appropriately designed, sized, and correctly installed
- the fluid could not freeze solid (at least not anywhere near the meter)
- there was not a lot of solid gunk in the fluid
- there was a good way to clean and bypass the meter if needed (should it gum or plugs up)

Meeting all those conditions would be difficult (and costly), so in general, I think a flowmeter in a mainline to measure sap flow, especially in a vacuum system, and especially if it is outside where it can freeze, is really just a BAD idea.

[bowhunter]

Listen to the good Doctor he knows where of he speaks. A flow meter would be nothing but trouble in this application.....