Please identify

[Wanabe1972]

Please identify pump it was free delivered from my father in laws barn and I think it is deleval80948095Thanks Jeff

[Wanabe1972]

I think I solve my own question it looks like its a deleval 74. The thing is the pump I use now was supposed to be a 73 but looks nothing like it. I'm going to the farm and check the other pump.

[BreezyHill]

Does look like a Delaval 74 but the vanes are of the older series as they look to be metallic instead of the carbon fiber style. The oil inlet for the side that still has a cover is much like the 74 later style as it has a riser built into the casting. It could have been rebuilt with a newer end cover installed. It could be rebuilt again if the interior housing is not scored and the rotary has not scored the covers to much. Since the cover is not on, I fear that was the problem. or the shaft spun inside the bearing. Rotor scoring is a killer. The end cover will then allow leakage of air past and only low vacuum is obtainable. You need very high tolerances to obtain high vacuum and good oil. To thick of an oil and you will be forcing the rotor to press on the end cover. Older pumps run an oil flooded bushing and one bearing(73 & 75). The bushing end will be fine but the bearing end will be scored from the rotor rubbing on the end cover.
What concerns me is the new bearing on the shaft. Now look at your vanes. None of them are in the correct position for a pump that has been opened after sitting. Top dead center, #1, would be dropped in to the rotor like #3 is, 2 & 4 are in a compressed setting that is achieved when the unit is under power and has spin to the 8 O'clock position of the housing. If it was cleaned and put back together the #1 vane would have been in the 4 o'clock position with vane #2 in a more retracted stance and # &#4 would have been fully dropped to the rotor. So I am thinking that it was pulled apart the bearing was junk. New bearing was added and then the damaged cover was noticed. The vanes slots were not cleaned; so when they were slid in they stayed were they were. The new cover was likely not on the shelf so a new pump was purchased. This pump became a shelf ornament. The rusting of the housing and the rotor is to uniform for a pump that was taken apart after sitting. Notice the lip the cover sits on. The rusting on there and the interior is very consistent. So the interior was clean and the gasket was removed and cleaned.
If you could find a 74 end cover and the other cover is ok it could be rebuilt. I cant say without testing if the vacuum level will be really high but it would be a good backup for you. Or I can swing by and take a look at it and see if it can be used for parts.
Call Dave in Argyle for a 74 end covers availability. Vanes are available on line but I would like to stay with the metal ones if they are good. Take a can of WD40 and soaker her down. This stops the rust and loosens the vanes...don't tap on the vanes they will be junk if you do.
That rust you see is what happens if a pump sets for a period of time. If it had a moisture trap with water in it the rust would have been worse.
Ben

[Wanabe1972]

Ok here's the deal. I went to the farm and cleaned the crud of the tank on the pump I currently use and it says 30 plus so I'm thinking its surge rather than deleval. I found some info on the deleval today as to why it was tore apart. I guess the seal on the end cap used to leak air in while running and oil out while shut off. The guy that owned it had a deal to get several new cows so he decided to put a new seal in it. They also replaced both bearings in it but the cow deal fell through and they never put the pump back together. It does had the fiber vanes in it and they are loose. The reason the vanes are where they are is because I slid them around with my finger. The question is should I rebiud the deleval or stick with the surge. Remember I only have 150 and possible 50 mmore taps running on this.

[BreezyHill]

Jeff the 74 was/is a good pump. I like the earlier series better due to the sheer mass of the casting. The motor frame is part of the pump housing. This gives it a large area to dissipate heat. If you were to put a 73 or 75 on some oak blocks on the floor the cold floor and the natural draft past the unit would do a lot for cooling it. Then take the cooper oil supply line to the bushing on the face cover and make several coils so as to give it more length that will dissipate heat and you will have a rather cool pump. Mine will have another line to put oil into the inlet of the pump incase the temp of the housing gets to high. Since it will be a little costly to put this on I an only tapping the inlet pipe and using a ball valve. If I find that the temp gets to high then I open the valve and put in the electronic controls when I have time. When I see the temp start to drop I know I have enough flow.

The later series pumps were designed to be set on a balance tank. Balance tanks were needed to compensate for the drop in vacuum when a five gallon or larger milker was attached. More recently the drop is less, since a claw is used that is less than a quart of open space. But when using 6 or 8 units in a barn this small drop is happening more often, and sliding the pulsator on is a little trickier than slipping on a hose and opening a cock valve/ stall cock. The rush of 0 vac air in the system from a 5/8" or 3/4" port drops the level a bunch at 15".
Also on the balance tank would be the motor.
The use of a balance tank in sapping is not so vital unless you have a releaser that uses a fair amount of vacuum in its natural operation; or has shafts that depend on grease or rubber grommets to reduce vac leaks. Since every little leak adds up to less at the tap hole these leaks need to be managed daily and a balance tank would have some usefulness. As it would reduce the momentary drop in vacuum to the mains. When you are looking to maximize vacuum transfer to the tap hole you do not want any fluctuations in vacuum, as they will smooth out up the mains to a lower mean vacuum level.
A modified vacuum manifold that is tall and attached to a releaser and whipped into the dry line would better transfer the balance tanks affect to the dry lines. I would NOT recommend this without a W/D system as the risk of moisture to the trap is higher. You hear and can read on several threads the use of ss for sap flow but I don't recall seeing a comment on the vacuum flow.
Remember DR Tim's findings 1" vac is 5-7% change in sap yield.
So if the balance tank is available ...get it. You wont be sorry. It is just one more key to getting to...or past .5 g/t.
Remember that setting up your system is all about getting the air out of the lines all the way to the tap hole, and the sap to the tank.
I remember when my dad was teaching me about vacuum as a young lad. He took a portable gauge and stuck on a tap and handed it to me. He walked down the line and opened a tap from the tee cup. I had 18" then nothing. Then he put his thumb over it so only a faint whistle was heard and I had under 10". That left a lasting impression on me some 30 plus years later. Little leaks really do add up.
Ben

[BreezyHill]

Well the 30 was a great unit in its day. '50 to turn of century. The bearings should be sealed bearing units unless they were updated and oilers added. The updating is a little bit of a project and you will need to use a drill press and vice to get the holes right so they can be taped for the oilers. Be certain to clean all metal debris with compressed air and then carb cleaner and a shop towel. The 30 came with a 1.65 hp but likely was updated to a 1.5 hp when it needed a new motor. Max taps on the 30 for high vac will be in the 5-7 hundred range if she is tight. Put a ball valve in with the check valve so you can close off all air in and see where she goes to. It needs to be before the vacuum controller if you are going to still use one.
Personnally I would use the Alamo, and clean up the 30 and keep it as a spare. If nothing else it is cheap insurance that the 30 wont die for a while.
How many oilers on the Alamo unit, and Hp of the motor. When you get the valves in let me know and I will swing by and we can do a cfm test on it when I am in the area. You will also want to have a gauge between the pump and the valve. I will send you a pic of how I set them up so that condensation drains out and you can do an easy cfm test on them to see what they really do have. I hate guessing...people often don't understand that pumps wear and the wear makes them leak. Even the best oil in the world will not fix a scored housing. Only a hone and time will fix scores. It is pretty easy but rather time consuming to do it right. Vacuum is very unforgiving if you don't do it right.
Personnally, since you have some time on your hands and a cast on your foot. lol Find a stool and clean up the 74 for a spare. The 30 is a fine unit, but a spare is always handy.

Ben

[Wanabe1972]

IBreezy I don't have a cast on (couldn't fit it in a steel toe boot) but I am going to have some time after the weather turns I have a small fleet of snowmobiles to service then thinking about building this 74 into a complete unit. I'm going to bring the pump to work on Saturday (full machine shop ) and see if I can get it operational. This winter I will hook it to a motor and build a reclaimer. We run dozens of reclaimers at work I can copy. The guys on here would drool over the 20 vacuum pumps we run they are rotory and about 50hp each. The pump I use at the farm is the farm owners and I would like to use my own. I was alittle nervous about running his pump any harder than 18 inches cause it got noisy if I did. If the rig is mine I will run it till it bleeds

[BreezyHill]

No cast! I had to drive in a full cast for 8 weeks and you don't get a cast....was the Dr pretty at least???
What was the notice? Clicking, sqealing, or what? What kind of oil in it. Pull the drain plug to check for water? Anything in the oil?
I will be recycling propane cylinders. My 73 has a click at 22 but is gone at 24. Seems to be a vane sticking. Pulled the face off and it was fine and no marks where the vane is dropping in at. The next thing is to open it and pull a vane and close it up until I find the one that is causing the issue. They all are straight, clean, and free.
You must work at a printing or paper plant with that kind of Hp on vacs.
I wish I had taken pics of the tubing implosion I had last season. Quite the sight. You would have appreciated it. Never ever use old tubing. Cant be trusted under high vac. Little pieces everywhere in the woo.ds. What a mess. Picked up a Stewarts bag full and still a sliver once in a while.

[Wanabe1972]

I broke the bone that goes from the ankle to the big toe but broke a slab off length wise not cross ways so there is not much they can do. Its already healing just one more scar or crooked finger to tell the grandkids about in the far far future. As for the surge pump it did just that. After about 5 minutes running at 20 inches it was speeding up and down just sounded like it was getting tight and ran real hot. I was just running TSC milker oil. It only has one oil line to the inlet. I don't own this pump so I turned it down to 18 and let it run. As for th 74 I'm taking it to work for a rebuild I think the vanes ar good just new seal and bearings. Do you use a rigid hone or a spring hone on these. I soaked it in marvel mystery oil and most of the rust came offbut will need honing. Do you hone it straight or cross hatch like a 2 stroke? It doesn't. Seem to be pitted also are they supposed to be perfectly round I will check this also.

[BreezyHill]

Good thinking. TSC oil is good stuff. Nice low vaporing temp out the exhaust for cooling the pump.
Hone straight with a spring unit. Round is not an issue as the vanes will slide in and out as needed. IF you ever come across on that has very little use; you will see it was cut like the old brake drum machines. They are fairly round but flaws in castings can get them out of round, but no big deal.
The pump was heating up due to the lack of free air flowing thru to cool the pump. She needed more oil. Probably don't need to saw this but...make sure an oiled bearing doesn't have a seal to block the oil flow. and if it is greased and is going in a flow spot clear some of the grease so the bearing will have oil flow. he oil is pulled thru by the vacuum. I use a 320 stone...kinda slow but nice smooth polish of the housing. Use an abrasive rotary cleaning disk to clean the vane slides by hand don't use a disk on a air tool takes too much off and will make the vanes sloppy.
More oil that is cool would keep the pump cooler. Just turn up the drippers. More oil.... better..... cooler.
The vaporizing of the oil cools the pump then it cools in the reclaimer and the process starts all over again.

[Wanabe1972]

Well I rounded up a seal a set of bearings ans a speedy sleeve for the 74 today so it looks like a rebuild is in order for the weekend. I also found an empty freon tank I can try to turn into a reclaimer. Breezy there are no seals or gaskets on the side covers where they mate with center section is this a machined fit or are the gaskets missing?

[BreezyHill]

Machine fit. But if you are looking for high vac you Must use a very thin film of gasket silicone, I use blue as it is more pliable, one the face plate. Keep the material out of the housing by staying 1/4" from the housing border on the face plate. When I say film I mean film. Slide the tube across the plate on the outside most edge and use a finger that is cleaned with cleaner to spread to a film. Check the bushing plate with a light to be certain that the seal is made after the bolts are tight.
Double check oil ports with high pressure air. Clean vane slides with a abrasion disk off of the tool. Fiber disk style only as the sanding ones are to rough and will take off metal. You should be good to go.
Sealing the housing will get you a couple extra inches. The gap was used to cool the housing and is usually found mostly on the top and front and back. Typically the oil sealed of the bottom by lodging debris in the gap.
Good Luck!

[Wanabe1972]

What rpms would you guys run the deleval 74 at?

[Wanabe1972]

I rebuilt the 74 today and it looks pretty good I spun it over by hand dry and watched all the vanes drop in and all was well. I chucked the shaft in the lathe to tset it and it started up with a few drops of air tool oil in it and it went to 20 inches. I gave it a few more drops and went to 700 rpms and the guage started to flutter from 17 to 20 inches. I shut it down and spun by hand but onlt 2 vanes are dropping in now. I spun it up to 750 and it seemed to be better. If I start it at 500 rpms it does not not even pull vacuum and then all of a sudden it will start making vacuun again but it fluctuates wildly. Could this be the oil or should I pull it back apart.

[BreezyHill]

Minimum on most is 635 is minium on a 75 that is close to the same diameter as the 74 and 885 is the higher speed with a 2Hp motor. the max on a 73 is 1000 rpm. with 1 Hp.
How did the slots the vanes were in look. I like to coat the vanes with SAE 30 and slide in the slots with the rotor out on a table. If there is any thing that will hinder the vane it will track the oil. This way you know where to clean and recheck. The vanes should be able to drop out or sling out at 600 rpm. Since they were sticking there is likely an issue with them. Are they metal or nonmetallic?

[BreezyHill]

Look at the vanes. If they soaked any of the oil in they would stick. I would use vacuum oil, TSC in Queensbury will have it. Walkers may also. I like the TSC oil as it evaps at a lower temp than some and will cool the pump better this way. If the needle is fluttering then the vanes are erratic in where in the spin they are coming out at. Low rpm will do this if they are not perfectly clean or soaked up the tool oil. The G force is what makes them fly out or the rotor to the housing.
Were the vanes new or used? Metal or nonmetallic? New vanes will be Kevlar and are pricey. Steel is nice, as I feel they run cooler and are better for high vac. Their weight makes them fly out better and hold position better than nonmetallic. The full swep of the housing is important for high vac. Other common errors that reduce vac is not keeping the exhaust screen clean, not using an exhaust screen. long exhaust pipes. Exhaust pipes that are not turn down and water gets in. Reclaimers without proper exhausts. Wrong oil. I like to put at least a cup of vac oil in the exhaust port on rebuild and spin it by hand for at least 5 rotations slowly so the vanes and housing gets lubed. Then I will run the pump for 3-5 minutes with no load to be certain the oil is getting to the bushing/bearings and the vanes and housing is totally lubricated before choking the inlet. When you do this at about one minute you will hear the pump quite right down as the oil is getting thru the shaft and the vanes are getting more and more lube. I increase the oil useage by 400% on my units. This makes a huge difference. The pump runs a lot cooler and the wear on the unit is greatly reduced.
Start her out easy and let her heat up slowly...then when she is getting oil good you can heat her up so that the metal parts will get seasoned. Just like a cast iron frying pan. Ounce she is seasoned well she is ready to be used. I don't like to pull past 22 to get her hot at first.
Think about how long it takes for a pump to draw down the sap lines first thing in the morning. It is usually 5-10 minutes to get up to level. In that time she is getting the bubbles out of the lines and shaft. Then she is ready to work for the day.
So just break her in w/ vac oil and she should be fine.

[Wanabe1972]

Well I'm going to leave the pump alone for now as I have no wat to spin it at home right now. I pulled the motor out of the barn and it looks to be a 1.5 hp. I hooked it to a suicide cable and plugged it into my welder plug and it took right off. The motor had some arcing at the comutator and smelled like an old GE blender. Imm going to take it to work this weekend and have one of my IE guys look at it. I'm sure they can get it cleaned up. What size tank should I look for to use as balancing tank? I have an old air tank that is about 7 gallons would this be big enough?

[Wanabe1972]

Just looked at the tank and it is much bigger than I thought about 25 gallon. Looks to be an old air compressor tank. Will this work? Well I am going to go process a couple more cord of wood as my father in law dropped a couple of old dying pines out back. (Everyone should be lucky enough to own a wood processor).

[BreezyHill]

Plenty of size the only issue is the openings. Air tanks typically have small openings, 3/4" Ideally the opening on a balance tank is at least one size larger than the line going to the releaser if it is within 5'. longer than 5' two sizes. The best scenario is a 3" opening that you could run pvc line to the releaser and reduce down to the inlet of the releaser with bushings. This provides the best flow to the releaser as the vacuum is using the air around the outside of the tubing as a friction reducer or a roller. The column of air travelling to the balance tank is the inner most of the pipe and the air on the walls is circling from the movement of the column. I am sure at work you can get the guys to cut a hole in the end of the tank and weld in a 3" coupling. TO this coupling connect your pvc pipe. It is best to use 45 elbows and not 90 to maximize the vacuum transfer in the system if a 90 is needed connect two 45 elbows to a 8" or longer section to make a sweeping elbow to maximize transfer. The closer the pump is to the releaser the better.

You could also weld a bracket to accommodate the 74 onto the tank and make a motor mount bracket on top also. Then you have one unit that with a couple of wheels will be fairly portable.

Make sure you have a drain on the tank bottom. A tee of the pump to the tank will give you a good location to supply oil and to have a vacuum gauge. Don't forget the check valve before the releaser and a ball valve to isolate the tank and pump. If you put the ball valve at the tank this would make a great unit for a vacuum kiln to dry your firewood; but that is a totally different project. Easy to do and a fascinating project for kids to watch.

Keep me updated!

Ben

[BreezyHill]

25 gallons is no problem. It will just take longer for the pump to bring it all to your desire level; but that just means the pump has an easier and longer warm up time when it gets turned on. More time to get the oil where it needs to be before the stress of sucking hard all day starts.
Part of my processing unit went to college this year...three sons plus me. I drop the trees, one to run the winch tractor and pull them to the pile area, two more to cut and transfer the would to piles or stack in the wood shed. Efficiency has gone out the window now. :lol:

[Wanabe1972]

Breezy. I can take care of the tank mods as I was the owner operator of a small fab shop for several years. My question is is there an ideal spot for the tank to pump and tank to releaser ports if I use the tank horizontal?

[BreezyHill]

Sorry had a huge project thrown in my lap that I was not planning on doing this year and had to focus every last minute on it. nearly done.

So Location of the pump on top of a tank would be ideal so that an oversized 90 elbow could attach to the pump. A rubber sleeve to connect two close nipples is best to reduce vibration between the pump and tank that may crack the pipe or welds. Then on the end is where most tanks have the fittings to attach the line to be vacuumed and connect to the releaser. The ideal thing is to limit the number of 90 elbows to get the best vac transfer. 3" pvc or even 2" to the releaser is great. This provides a clear column for the air to travel giving a space next to the pipe wall that will tend to act like a roller table. There would be turbulence on the sides, as the main air movement is within the center of the pipe. This all goes back to physics. A drain fitting on the bottom of the tank is recommended to remove any condensation or oil that may get into the tank. Check valve and water traps are a must. You will be surprised how much moisture the tank will collect, that the water trap can miss. Water traps in a cool location work best as they will condense vapor that a warm trap will allow thru. So a trap near the floor is better than one high near the ceiling.
Also the vacuumed line on the end with at least a foot of pipe before the tank will get moisture to settle to the bottom of the air column saving the pump from moisture issues. Be certain to drain the tank regularly.

[Wanabe1972]

Thanks for the info I think I have everything you mentioned on hand. I think I even have a 3 inch vacuum boot or 2 I rescued from a dumpster at work. I too have been in aproject this week. I have set 3 posts hand dug a 20 foot trench through what I think is bedrock an partially hung my new mainline to the barn. I have researched the parts for the RO I am just going to see if I can get a deal through work on the vessel and xle404 membrane. Next week is Polaris week as I need to service 9 of them then I'm going to start the pump build.

[BreezyHill]

That sounds like fun...not...I had to go thru about 5000 pics of the soccer season and then find songs to put the pics to. Then find a song to use for player intros. I went with a them of tackles were Love and used the songs Big Dog daddy for intro and then with Rock me gentle and Done for the tackles, then added a few more songs. Hope to be done by the weekend. These mid nights suck.
One mans junk another's treasure!